Jose Mourinho | 2017/18 Assessments | Poll Added

[BridgeBanter]

Being a Chelsea fan I am still incredibly fond of Jose Mourinho. Its a strange feeling because due to his obvious position as United manager Im variably rooting for him and his team to drop points more often than not, except for in European competition. On the other hand I wouldn't begrudge it if he won with United (assuming Chelsea don't of course) and rightfully showed that his last season at Chelsea was an anomaly and he is still an elite level coach, because he truly is.

My biggest issue with Mourinho has always been his tendency to be overtly pragmatic especially when the opportunity presents itself for his team to be more adventures. I still maintain one of the most disappointing Chelsea results in recent memory was when we went out of the CL to PSG when they were down to 10 men. The game was there for the taking and had we asserted ourselves as the team at home, with the extra man, in a knockout, we could of won. Instead we let PSG dominate the play allowing Veratti and company to dictate the game. Even though we only just lost to a Thaigo Silva header in extra time, we failed to take the initiative in a game and a stage where the really great teams show their stuff. Thats the one concern I'd have if I was a United fan. There are, and have been times for Jose where in the effort of winning, it is actually more practical to be attacking and offensive rather counterattacking. However, he will always choose the more conservative approach in a game of high leverage. Its who he is, its a part of his nature and for a man thats been one of the best coaches of his generation its hard to argue with the results. However I truly don't think that aspect of his manager psyche will ever change.

 

[sunama]

Playing devil’s advocate here (for the sake of balance) but it can also be perceived as; we’ve played some really poor sides, almost a third of our goals came from set pieces, struggled at stoke Southampton and other games where the score line flattered our performance, laboured to a draw against Liverpool who got smashed by City and Spurs, legitimately deserved to lose to the mighty Huddersfield.

All those sides in bold, which you mentioned we failed to flatter - Fellaini was not available.

 

[GrandJury]

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Sun pushing rumours froma 'source' that the training ground has been glum since Liverpool away.

Get rid of them then.

 

[Ali Dia]

Being a Chelsea fan I am still incredibly fond of Jose Mourinho. Its a strange feeling because due to his obvious position as United manager Im variably rooting for him and his team to drop points more often than not, except for in European competition. On the other hand I wouldn't begrudge it if he won with United (assuming Chelsea don't of course) and rightfully showed that his last season at Chelsea was an anomaly and he is still an elite level coach, because he truly is.

My biggest issue with Mourinho has always been his tendency to be overtly pragmatic especially when the opportunity presents itself for his team to be more adventures. I still maintain one of the most disappointing Chelsea results in recent memory was when we went out of the CL to PSG when they were down to 10 men. The game was there for the taking and had we asserted ourselves as the team at home, with the extra man, in a knockout, we could of won. Instead we let PSG dominate the play allowing Veratti and company to dictate the game. Even though we only just lost to a Thaigo Silva header in extra time, we failed to take the initiative in a game and a stage where the really great teams show their stuff. Thats the one concern I'd have if I was a United fan. There are, and have been times for Jose where in the effort of winning, it is actually more practical to be attacking and offensive rather counterattacking. However, he will always choose the more conservative approach in a game of high leverage. Its who he is, its a part of his nature and for a man thats been one of the best coaches of his generation its hard to argue with the results. However I truly don't think that aspect of his manager psyche will ever change.

Good sensible post. He'll always play the percentages and sometimes we will batter terrible, badly organized or tiring teams (we should be dominating half the teams in this league going by money spend on the first team squad alone, coaching aside) but if he respects the opposition at all we seem to just try and keep it very tight. You can't argue with his trophies or even his signings for us but we do still look at bit short in attack either way.

 

[Hansa]

My biggest issue with Mourinho has always been his tendency to be overtly pragmatic especially when the opportunity presents itself for his team to be more adventures.

I think this is because pragmatic teams, with an emphasis on defensive solidity, usually come out on top (especially in cup competitions, slightly less in league campaigns). Some of this annoyance with playing styles is our own fault as critical supporters, I feel. Go back to Brendan Rodgers' Liverpool in 13/14. They scored 101 goals in the Premier League, but the post-mortem always focused on the goals conceded. Pep last season? "Naive and defensively clueless". Arsene Wenger's team? "Soft in defence".

We always cry out for our teams to be more attacking and adventurous, yet at the same time expect our teams to be rock solid at the back. In the history of football, very few teams have managed both for a prolonged period of time. After all, at the pinnacle of club football we're always up against other clubs with the very same ambition of being attacking and solid.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

Being a Chelsea fan I am still incredibly fond of Jose Mourinho. Its a strange feeling because due to his obvious position as United manager Im variably rooting for him and his team to drop points more often than not, except for in European competition. On the other hand I wouldn't begrudge it if he won with United (assuming Chelsea don't of course) and rightfully showed that his last season at Chelsea was an anomaly and he is still an elite level coach, because he truly is.

My biggest issue with Mourinho has always been his tendency to be overtly pragmatic especially when the opportunity presents itself for his team to be more adventures. I still maintain one of the most disappointing Chelsea results in recent memory was when we went out of the CL to PSG when they were down to 10 men. The game was there for the taking and had we asserted ourselves as the team at home, with the extra man, in a knockout, we could of won. Instead we let PSG dominate the play allowing Veratti and company to dictate the game. Even though we only just lost to a Thaigo Silva header in extra time, we failed to take the initiative in a game and a stage where the really great teams show their stuff. Thats the one concern I'd have if I was a United fan. There are, and have been times for Jose where in the effort of winning, it is actually more practical to be attacking and offensive rather counterattacking. However, he will always choose the more conservative approach in a game of high leverage. Its who he is, its a part of his nature and for a man thats been one of the best coaches of his generation its hard to argue with the results. However I truly don't think that aspect of his manager psyche will ever change.

Totally agree here. I think his pragmatic nature can be very useful when he don't go over the top. That PSG game was a good example of him being too defensive. Our games against Liverpool and his recent away games in the league other times when he has been too defensive minded.

Although I think his biggest weakness is that he don't seem that great to coordinate attacking movements in the team from coaching. I guess he got other coaches as well, but getting together a functional attack in a more methodological way has been something his team have lacked.

 

[fellaini's barber]

People still happy that we didn't get Perisic. Back one of the best manager's the game has ever seen, trust in what he is doing. People could see the problem with Herrera and Martial even before the Huddersfield game.

Feck me what the hell did Martial do to you? Your constantly slating him in his thread, Rashford's thread,Lingards thread now Jose's thread. We get it you don't like the guy stop spamming the whole forum ffs

 

[Theonas]

I think this is because pragmatic teams, with an emphasis on defensive solidity, usually come out on top (especially in cup competitions, slightly less in league campaigns). Some of this annoyance with playing styles is our own fault as critical supporters, I feel. Go back to Brendan Rodgers' Liverpool in 13/14. They scored 101 goals in the Premier League, but the post-mortem always focused on the goals conceded. Pep last season? "Naive and defensively clueless". Arsene Wenger's team? "Soft in defence".

We always cry out for our teams to be more attacking and adventurous, yet at the same time expect our teams to be rock solid at the back. In the history of football, very few teams have managed both for a prolonged period of time. After all, at the pinnacle of club football we're always up against other clubs with the very same ambition of being attacking and solid.

I think you are cherry picking your examples here. Obviously playing on the front foot and winning is the most difficult thing to do in football. It is why many fail at it but if there is any club in the world who should be expected to reach those heights, it surely is the richest and the biggest. Fans are not even asking that we pull it off perfectly, Fans are asking to see us working towards that, if the odd game comes when we can't impose ourselves, then that comes with the territory. But in the age of the super clubs, you look at how high Barcelona, Real, PSG, Bayern aim and since we are not inferior to them financially or size wise, it is where we should aim as well.

 

[spontaneus1]

Well you should expect no more as negativity spreads quickly, it was so unnecessary us taking the approach we did against Scousers. I bet the confidence took a hit with Jose not trusting his players to go out and play at Anfield.

Could be BS but I still think Jose can be his own undoing with similar tactics going forwards.

Even if it's true(Which it is clearly not, its the Sun after all), that would be a problem with the player in question rather than Mourinho.

 

[haram]

Feck me what the hell did Martial do to you? Your constantly slating him in his thread, Rashford's thread,Lingards thread now Jose's thread. We get it you don't like the guy stop spamming the whole forum ffs

There's nothing wrong with what I said. Are you going to get mad at the fact I think Herrera is a problem at the moment as well? One of the current topics regarding Mourinho is his response to Martial's performance against Huddersfield. Sorry if me speaking about it offends you.

 

[Hansa]

I think you are cherry picking your examples here. Obviously playing on the front foot and winning is the most difficult thing to do in football. It is why many fail at it but if there is any club in the world who should be expected to reach those heights, it surely is the richest and the biggest. Fans are not even asking that we pull it off perfectly, Fans are asking to see us working towards that, if the odd game comes when we can't impose ourselves, then that comes with the territory. But in the age of the super clubs, you look at how high Barcelona, Real, PSG, Bayern aim and since we are not inferior to them financially or size wise, it is where we should aim as well.

Yeah, obviously I want the same. In another thread I mentioned that I'll never speak ill of any United team going for it, and occasionally ending up being thrashed as a result of it. I was as annoyed and frustrated with the game at Anfield as most others. However, when we speak of ourselves as a super club, it's worth pointing out that the squad building has been mismanaged for several years now, maybe stretching as far back as 2009. Jose has done a lot right transfer-wise, but he can't turn the whole squad upside down to fit his own needs in just a few transfer windows. In the meantime, before getting all of 'his' players in, he's right to be a bit nervous about going head to head with our biggest rivals. He is fully aware of the bad press we'll get if we're losing - no matter how attacking we are. He is rightly more comfortable getting criticized - and picking up points along the way.

Of the top 6, only Pep and Conte has been at their respective clubs for a similarly short amount of time. Conte's first season was impressive, no doubt, but he inherited what was essentially a title winning squad. Pep has been the spoiled kid in the candy store. And as financially strong as we are, we can't compete with 'outlaws' like City (or PSG).

What's the gist of my ramblings here? I'll give Mourinho a couple more windows to build an attacking squad. If he then persists with a safety first approach against any quality side, I'll join the critics myself.

 

[Theonas]

Yeah, obviously I want the same. In another thread I mentioned that I'll never speak ill of any United team going for it, and occasionally ending up being thrashed as a result of it. I was as annoyed and frustrated with the game at Anfield as most others. However, when we speak of ourselves as a super club, it's worth pointing out that the squad building has been mismanaged for several years now, maybe stretching as far back as 2009. Jose has done a lot right transfer-wise, but he can't turn the whole squad upside down to fit his own needs in just a few transfer windows. In the meantime, before getting all of 'his' players in, he's right to be a bit nervous about going head to head with our biggest rivals. He is fully aware of the bad press we'll get if we're losing - no matter how attacking we are. He is rightly more comfortable getting criticized - and picking up points along the way.

You seem like a sensible poster so apologies if I jumped to conclusions. I totally agree with the general idea that managers need time and that we were such a mishmash of team that there was no continuity or clear profile of what we were looking for or how we wanted to play. I don't think that you can just switch on a more pro active style on a given day. I think now the individual quality among the top teams is of a high level and more often than not, very comparable that the different is usually made through coaching, practice and confidence. What I mean by this is that if you want to go toe to toe and be confident of competing by playing like that, you need to work on that from pre season and throughout the year. By the time match days come, it is already too late. Mourinho to me simply does not work towards that which leaves him with only one option in those big games. It is how he always worked and like other top managers, they tend to be stubborn and set on their ways. Maybe Real Madrid is a bit of an exception as he was essential in their rebuild after a barren mid '00s and he started that also through a more conservative setup. However Real Madrid are not a team that you would call greater than the sum of its parts, their individual quality is not only top class, it is exceptional and they need to be to be able to play they do.

Of the top 6, only Pep and Conte has been at their respective clubs for a similarly short amount of time. Conte's first season was impressive, no doubt, but he inherited what was essentially a title winning squad. Pep has been the spoiled kid in the candy store. And as financially strong as we are, we can't compete with 'outlaws' like City (or PSG).

I am not sure I agree with how highly you rate Conte's squad last year. I think the main difference between their team and ours last year was Eden Hazard, a true game changer who can win games on his own. The rest fall into the category of players that can look brilliant or average depending on the same old factors; tactics, confidence, momentum, setup, etc... Pep had a lot of money to spend but the squads value is very comparable. They did not spend significantly more than we did and I am not sure that we couldn't spend more if we wanted to. My point is squad quality money cannot be used as factor when comparing Pep and Mourinho so far since they both are extremely close.

What's the gist of my ramblings here? I'll give Mourinho a couple more windows to build an attacking squad. If he then persists with a safety first approach against any quality side, I'll join the critics myself.

I think he definitely will but I also think he should be given time. Not because he will change but because I think we are desperate for some continuity. We need to develop some form of familiarity and whatever advantage we might again from a managerial change would be negated by the fact that we would have to start over, yet again.

 

[Hansa]

Mourinho to me simply does not work towards that which leaves him with only one option in those big games. It is how he always worked and like other top managers, they tend to be stubborn and set on their ways. Maybe Real Madrid is a bit of an exception as he was essential in their rebuild after a barren mid '00s and he started that also through a more conservative setup. However Real Madrid are not a team that you would call greater than the sum of its parts, their individual quality is not only top class, it is exceptional and they need to be to be able to play they do.

Yeah, I don't expect him to turn into an attacking fundamentalist like Zdenek Zeman overnight

I think our opinions are not too far apart - I'm just arguing the case for the defence, as it were. I'd like to see us return to a 2006/07 ethos of attacking football. But even Fergie couldn't make us entertaining throughout every season. As for Jose, he probably doesn't have a lot of goodwill. One defensive match, and one lacklustre performance against a newly-promoted team, and the knives are out. All told, we've had a good start to the season. Unfortunately, we're compared to the City team that won 7-2 vs Stoke (and not the one that needed penalties after a few scary moments against the second string of a second tier team).

 

[shaky]

Jose also bought lindlehof though. No none has a perfect record in the transfer market

You can't seriously be writing off Lindelof after a handful of games?

 

[Fracture90]

Can we get some threadmarks for each game like the players have? Think it would be useful.

 

[noodlehair]

Being a Chelsea fan I am still incredibly fond of Jose Mourinho. Its a strange feeling because due to his obvious position as United manager Im variably rooting for him and his team to drop points more often than not, except for in European competition. On the other hand I wouldn't begrudge it if he won with United (assuming Chelsea don't of course) and rightfully showed that his last season at Chelsea was an anomaly and he is still an elite level coach, because he truly is.

My biggest issue with Mourinho has always been his tendency to be overtly pragmatic especially when the opportunity presents itself for his team to be more adventures. I still maintain one of the most disappointing Chelsea results in recent memory was when we went out of the CL to PSG when they were down to 10 men. The game was there for the taking and had we asserted ourselves as the team at home, with the extra man, in a knockout, we could of won. Instead we let PSG dominate the play allowing Veratti and company to dictate the game. Even though we only just lost to a Thaigo Silva header in extra time, we failed to take the initiative in a game and a stage where the really great teams show their stuff. Thats the one concern I'd have if I was a United fan. There are, and have been times for Jose where in the effort of winning, it is actually more practical to be attacking and offensive rather counterattacking. However, he will always choose the more conservative approach in a game of high leverage. Its who he is, its a part of his nature and for a man thats been one of the best coaches of his generation its hard to argue with the results. However I truly don't think that aspect of his manager psyche will ever change.

That PSG game is the exact one that sticks out in my mind for the same reason. I think you'd already been stung a couple of times that season where Jose had closed up shop in games despite you having a degree of control over them. When you played us at Old Trafford for example...but that game almost bordered on insanity really. There was no reason at all to try and close out the game for 70 odd minutes.

I think he has certain ideas about what to do in certain situations, and he's just unwilling to change those, and it does hurt him at times. We drew a few games we should have won last season due to him again trying to drop off and see a game out rather than trust his team to kill the opposition off. Most obviously against Arsenal when we had just completely overpowered them, and suddenly we were sitting o nthe edge of our own area hoofing clearances away, entirely through our own choice. We didn't have the players or organisation/composure to be effective at closing games out in this way, and it showed.

The other thing he seems to religiously stick to is this idea of sticking a tall defender up front if he's chasing a goal late in a game. There are situations where this is effective (e.g. if you're struggling to get the ball up the pitch and into attacking areas), but Jose will do it regardless of the situation. Although it'll at least only be a last throw of the dice/final 5 minutes thing. LVG used to do it with literally half hour still to go, again regardless of the pattern of the game.

It's kind of at odds with Jose's overall management as he seems to take games into ridiculous detail at times, then at others just manages by these default settings.

I do think so far the positives easily outweigh the negatives. It's easy to see why he's been successful because he has a template and a level of adaptability to suit the situation.

 

[AshRK]

Being a Chelsea fan I am still incredibly fond of Jose Mourinho. Its a strange feeling because due to his obvious position as United manager Im variably rooting for him and his team to drop points more often than not, except for in European competition. On the other hand I wouldn't begrudge it if he won with United (assuming Chelsea don't of course) and rightfully showed that his last season at Chelsea was an anomaly and he is still an elite level coach, because he truly is.

My biggest issue with Mourinho has always been his tendency to be overtly pragmatic especially when the opportunity presents itself for his team to be more adventures. I still maintain one of the most disappointing Chelsea results in recent memory was when we went out of the CL to PSG when they were down to 10 men. The game was there for the taking and had we asserted ourselves as the team at home, with the extra man, in a knockout, we could of won. Instead we let PSG dominate the play allowing Veratti and company to dictate the game. Even though we only just lost to a Thaigo Silva header in extra time, we failed to take the initiative in a game and a stage where the really great teams show their stuff. Thats the one concern I'd have if I was a United fan. There are, and have been times for Jose where in the effort of winning, it is actually more practical to be attacking and offensive rather counterattacking. However, he will always choose the more conservative approach in a game of high leverage. Its who he is, its a part of his nature and for a man thats been one of the best coaches of his generation its hard to argue with the results. However I truly don't think that aspect of his manager psyche will ever change.

Very good post. I also remember, if I am not wrong this whole over cautious approach of him started with the At. Madrid game where you guys were extra defensive and got knocked out in Jose's first season in his second spell.

I think he has become so pragmatic that he is no longer pragmatic anymore. I do not remember him being so defensive at RMA or even with Inter. I loved how he beat chelsea last season at home, I feel that is the best Jose. I do not know why he does not do that more often. I feel he has to review his style and change his style a bit.

 

[sunama]

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Get rid of them then.

Indeed.
Basically, Jose is pushing them too hard to win. And these darlings don't like this kind of pressure.

I remember last season when Jose stated that many players do not possess the winning mentality. This did not go down well with some of our darlings, and a similar thing is happening again, this season.
I assume that Jose gave our players a bollocking after the Huddersfield game and this probably didn't go down well, with our darlings.

IMO, Jose needs to be even tougher on some of our players.

 

[Minimalist]

Spurs are a good side but dear me these recent performances have been as bad as anything under Van Gaal.

What is with the constant hoofing?

 

[NinjaFletch]

Spurs are a good side but dear me these recent performances have been as bad as anything under Van Gaal.

What is with the constant hoofing?

We have two fit midfielders and are getting crowded out there in every game so being forced to bypass it.

Not rocket science.

 

[Minimalist]

We have two fit midfielders and are getting crowded out there in every game so being forced to bypass it.

Not rocket science.

Every team with a two in midfield hoofs the ball?

 

[Kapardin]

Every team with a two in midfield hoofs the ball?

Personnel problem, not quantity.

 

[MDFC Manager]

Personnel problem, not quantity.

You're right, assuming you consider the manager as personnel too.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Every team with a two in midfield hoofs the ball?

Any team that loses control of the middle of the pitch is going to look to avoid that area yeah.

 

[Mockney]

It’s fairly evident that he has no attacking playbook. He just expects them to get on with it and work it out themselves. That can have its benefits when you’ve got a smorgasbord of talent, but is a bit limiting when you don’t.

 

[Sammyjunn]

It’s fairly evident that he has no attacking playbook. He just expects them to get on with it and work it out themselves. That can have its benefits when you’ve got a smorgasbord of talent, but is a bit limiting when you don’t.

Nail on head, but he is missing Pogba, Carrick and Fellaini badly.

 

[Skills]

It’s fairly evident that he has no attacking playbook. He just expects them to get on with it and work it out themselves. That can have its benefits when you’ve got a smorgasbord of talent, but is a bit limiting when you don’t.

Sounds a bit David Moyesy (who tbf didn't even have a clue what a playbook was)

 

[Minimalist]

It’s fairly evident that he has no attacking playbook. He just expects them to get on with it and work it out themselves. That can have its benefits when you’ve got a smorgasbord of talent, but is a bit limiting when you don’t.

Think Wenger is pretty similar to be fair but simply has a more rigid playing style expected of his players. Mourinho seems to set them up and just lets them do whatever it takes in the final third.

 

[serghei]

It’s fairly evident that he has no attacking playbook. He just expects them to get on with it and work it out themselves. That can have its benefits when you’ve got a smorgasbord of talent, but is a bit limiting when you don’t.

Doesn't work that great even if you have a lot of talent in the team, because you also meet teams with top talent in it but who also have more ideas about what to do with it.

Martial is a big big talent and he's rubbing the bench right now. Talent is also cultivated, and Mourinho has proven to be quite shit at that in recent years.

 

[K2K]

We haven't been defensive.

Rather we have been poor. Neither is great.

 

[Rajma]

We could have done with another attacker in Martial or Mata for one of our CBs but for his cowardly nature.

 

[SwansonsTache]

He should get in an attacking coach or two, it just doesn't work for us in the final third.

 

[Dobbs]

Nail on head, but he is missing Pogba, Carrick and Fellaini badly.

He can't be missing all of them. Only one of them would be Playing today if fit.

 

[BeckhamtoScholes]

3 centre backs and 2 holding midfielders. So negative.

 

[Sammyjunn]

He can't be missing all of them. Only one of them would be Playing today if fit.

Not talking just about this match.

 

[Womp]

3 centre backs and 2 holding midfielders. So negative.

What midfielders do we have available that aren't holding midfielders?

 

[Bobski]

I hate the football Mourinho plays.

 

[Skills]

He should get in an attacking coach or two, it just doesn't work for us in the final third.

How about we hire a new head coach and keep Mourinho as the defensive assistant? Bite

 

[Kag]

He can't be missing all of them. Only one of them would be Playing today if fit.

Don't say that. There are a growing band of numpties that have convinced themselves that Marouane Fellaini is a reincarnation of Zinedine Zidane.

The only player we miss is Pogba, although some will have you know Marcos Rojo might make all the difference, too.

 

[MDFC Manager]

How about we hire a new head coach and keep Mourinho as the defensive assistant? Bite

Better yet, demote Mourinho to a being consultant for those super duper tough away games. He can then help us get a result (ie an occasional draw) in those games