Joshua Zirkzee

[Red Rash]

There is a decent player but he's not suited to the PL. He has his moments where he looks very good but he just doesn't have the speed, physicality (strange to say based on his size) or the aggressiveness.

 

[Xaviboy]

As someone mentioned in thread earlier 5 goals in 2 years. Enough said.

Get rid.

 

[MadDogg]

We were idiots for signing him. Not for other clubs not wanting an obligation to buy our rubbish.

Not every signing will work out. Sometimes it's a fairly obvious poor signing from the start (Antony for example at that ridiculous fee). I don't think Zirkzee is in that category. He was a 23yo who was in the Serie A team of the season and was the young player of the season. He has the size and power to handle the PL, is undoubtedly talented, and was available for just £36m due to a release clause. In theory at least should have been a good foil for the two wide attackers who were first choice at the time we bought him (Rashford and Garnacho).

Unfortunately it hasn't worked out that way and he's struggled with the intensity and speed of the PL, but if he'd been able to handle that he could have been a great find for a relatively low fee. He's not one I'd blame the club or scouting department for.

 

[Dazzmondo]

There is almost zero chance we'll let him go out on loan unless it comes with a ridiculous loan fee + obligation.

We're only interested in selling him for the cash - sounless the loan is with a hefty obligation I seriously doubt we'll be interested.

I think you'll be disappointed. Carrick hasn't given Zirkzee any significant mins. He clearly doesn't think he can give us what we need. I doubt we'll get any sort of decent fee.

 

[El Jefe]

Good lad for the dressing room and has good technique but he does nothing in terms of impacting points we get. He wouldn’t get games at our rivals so there’s no real need for him here.

 

[Ali Dia]

Not for Zirkzee they wouldn't. Chelsea had to loan Nicholas Jackson last season because they couldn't sell him and he's a better player.

But obviously don't let the truth get in the way of rehashing the same whinging from certain fans every single day on here without fail. Liverpool Chelsea and City have sold England/solid U21 and big international players for fairly good money because their first teams are stacked and then everybody loses their shit on here.

The equivalent would be us now selling Lacey instead of developing him, we'd get pretty good money for him because he looks like he could potentially be a PL player. Amass and Vitek we will get a decent deals for them for the same reason. Thats the standard of player that you need to be bringing through to be making real money on your young players. You either stick or twist depending on the pathway.

Regarding the first team sometimes signings just don't work out even when you're successful on the pitch. Any ETH/Amorim signing for me was signed for a system and manager that wasn't fit for purpose so no wonder some of these players totally lost momentum. It doesn't mean they are terrible players. Just quite possibly the wrong fit for the longer term direction we've decided to go in. No savvy club is going to match what you paid for a player if he's become a backup player in your employ, especially when you're not winning trophies every year.

 

[Gordon S]

physicality

He is really strong, love when he shoulder tackles players to keep the ball, they are flying to the ground.

Raw ability and talent is not the big issue for him. He has it, honestly enjoy watching him play.
Connecting it all with anticipation, awareness, composure, balance, creativity, decision making to really look good in the prem is not easy.

Another problem is also that his best position is probably as a 10, at least imo, and that position is occupied.
So we see him as a spearhead that should run into the box and get on the end of stuff and score a bunch of goals, which is skills he just doesn`t have.

 

[JJ12]

But obviously don't let the truth get in the way of rehashing the same whinging from certain fans every single day on here without fail. Liverpool Chelsea and City have sold England/solid U21 and big international players for fairly good money because their first teams are stacked and then everybody loses their shit on here.

The equivalent would be us now selling Lacey instead of developing him, we'd get pretty good money for him because he looks like he could potentially be a PL player. Amass and Vitek we will get a decent deals for them for the same reason. Thats the standard of player that you need to be bringing through to be making real money on your young players. You either stick or twist depending on the pathway.

Regarding the first team sometimes signings just don't work out even when you're successful on the pitch. Any ETH/Amorim signing for me was signed for a system and manager that wasn't fit for purpose so no wonder some of these players totally lost momentum. It doesn't mean they are terrible players. Just quite possibly the wrong fit for the longer term direction we've decided to go in. No savvy club is going to match what you paid for a player if he's become a backup player in your employ, especially when you're not winning trophies every year.

Exactly - City sold Morgan Rogers, Pedro Porro, Nmecha and more for peanuts. Cole Palmer below his worth. But people like to conveniently forget that.

 

[lex talionis]

We shouldn't have to be sacrificing positions because the previous regime threw away hundreds of millions. I admit he has some ability on the ball, however this league is too fast for him so why not find someone better suited to it.

What should be and what is are two different things. One shouldn’t have taken six shots of tequila last night, but there’s no escaping the reality of the hangover today.

 

[croadyman]

Loan with obligation or permanent transfer Juve

 

[Dubai]

Good lad for the dressing room

I know what you mean in terms of him being well liked, but I don't think this sort of player is good for the dressing room. I want a level of tension between our first and second choice strikers about who starts every week. Whether it's playing style or personality...one hardly feels like Zirkzee is pushing the rest of the team to the max in each session to claim a place in the team.

If we want good vibes in the dressing room, lets buy a dog like Arsenal or use Henderson like Chelsea and England.

 

[afrocentricity]

Reckon Carrick could use him but he's not gonna get the minutes...

 

[Red Rash]

He is really strong, love when he shoulder tackles players to keep the ball, they are flying to the ground.

Raw ability and talent is not the big issue for him. He has it, honestly enjoy watching him play.
Connecting it all with anticipation, awareness, composure, balance, creativity, decision making to really look good in the prem is not easy.

Another problem is also that his best position is probably as a 10, at least imo, and that position is occupied.
So we see him as a spearhead that should run into the box and get on the end of stuff and score a bunch of goals, which is skills he just doesn`t have.

Do you think so? He may be strong but I feel like he often doesn't contest 50/50 duals, at least with the aggression needed to make it in the PL. It feels like he is too timid almost.

 

[afrocentricity]

Do you think so? He may be strong but I feel like he often doesn't contest 50/50 duals, at least with the aggression needed to make it in the PL. It feels like he is too timid almost.

The way he manhandled those players in the last game makes me think he's trying to address that, but it needs to be a run of games...

 

[Lash]

Not every signing will work out. Sometimes it's a fairly obvious poor signing from the start (Antony for example at that ridiculous fee). I don't think Zirkzee is in that category. He was a 23yo who was in the Serie A team of the season and was the young player of the season. He has the size and power to handle the PL, is undoubtedly talented, and was available for just £36m due to a release clause. In theory at least should have been a good foil for the two wide attackers who were first choice at the time we bought him (Rashford and Garnacho).

Unfortunately it hasn't worked out that way and he's struggled with the intensity and speed of the PL, but if he'd been able to handle that he could have been a great find for a relatively low fee. He's not one I'd blame the club or scouting department for.

Of course you blame the recruitment team for it. He hasn't got a role in the team and no one wants to take him off our hands. You can't get a more clear cut failure of a transfer.

 

[Heinzesight]

Decent lad. Concrete boots.

 

[Ali Dia]

Exactly - City sold Morgan Rogers, Pedro Porro, Nmecha and more for peanuts. Cole Palmer below his worth. But people like to conveniently forget that.

Excuse the long post and derailing the thread. This is all another knock on from the glazers terrible running of the club and total lack of standards and understanding of the sporting landscape changing.

City snapped up Sancho and loads of others without any real competition from us. Hundreds of millions worth of potential players because they were recruiting/poaching at the very top end of youth football with players who looked at least premier league standard, whereas we have stood aside and become a lot more scattergun and punty for lack of a better word. The class of 92 could never happen again because 90% of them would be at City and Beckham would probably be at Chelsea.

I understand the end goals were very different as in they wanted to create the best acedemy in the world from scratch with endless resources and to make a sustainable profit in that way and typically we just wanted to develop one or two players for our first team out of each crop but that's why clubs like City Real Barca and Chelsea make an awful lot more money off their youth than we have. They are always right in the mix for the best youth in the country/the world without exception while we almost totally fell off.

To be fair we didn't do too badly off that last pre Brexit Murtough crop of Garnacho Fernandes etc but that's what they've been at every year with no expense spared, feeder clubs, multi clubs, high profile loans, buybacks etc.

It seems like we are back in the mix again for some of the very best young English players now we have direction again from ownership level. I expect those kinds of players to probably make us decent money even if they don't make it here in the end. Long may it continue!

 

[Gordon S]

Do you think so? He may be strong but I feel like he often doesn't contest 50/50 duals, at least with the aggression needed to make it in the PL. It feels like he is too timid almost.

He is strong as an ox but is probably not very good at using it well/consistingly. So i think we might agree after all

 

[Tiber]

a loan? he cant even make an impact when leaving

 

[worldinmotion66]

He doesn’t lack the physicality to play in this league, he lacks the intensity. Better technical players have at least shown bursts of intensity at the right times during games (think Betbatov, Taraabt etc). You can’t get away with being reactive rather than proactive in the premier league. It’s a shame because the talent is there. If we’re allowing him to leave on loan I’d imagine it’s because either Rashford is staying as the 3rd choice striker or Rashford is also leaving and we’re replacing both with one player coming in.

 

[The Purley King]

Exactly - City sold Morgan Rogers, Pedro Porro, Nmecha and more for peanuts. Cole Palmer below his worth. But people like to conveniently forget that.

Cole palmer went for £40m odd ?
Most people including me thought Chelsea had massively overpaid at the time.
Turns out not but with the info available at the time it was a good price for city

 

[JJ12]

Cole palmer went for £40m odd ?
Most people including me thought Chelsea had massively overpaid at the time.
Turns out not but with the info available at the time it was a good price for city

So they didn't do their job evaluating him or developing him

 

[Rossa]

There is a decent player but he's not suited to the PL. He has his moments where he looks very good but he just doesn't have the speed, physicality (strange to say based on his size) or the aggressiveness.

True, still think he's faster than Kane, but he lacks aggressiveness and intensity, and without those in the PL, I think you fail. Also, his passing is extremely arbitrary in that it can be very good at times and absolutely rubbish at the next opportunity. It's as if he becomes too lackadaisical with his play when one thing comes off.

 

[Rossa]

He doesn’t lack the physicality to play in this league, he lacks the intensity. Better technical players have at least shown bursts of intensity at the right times during games (think Betbatov, Taraabt etc). You can’t get away with being reactive rather than proactive in the premier league. It’s a shame because the talent is there. If we’re allowing him to leave on loan I’d imagine it’s because either Rashford is staying as the 3rd choice striker or Rashford is also leaving and we’re replacing both with one player coming in.

Agreed. He's no speed monster, but there have been slower strikers that have thrived in the league, even recently, but I doubt I have seen one with so little intent or fight in him.

 

[The Purley King]

So they didn't do their job evaluating him or developing him

Hard to say that when even at his Chelsea peak form city arguably had better players in front of him.
All I’m saying is that with the information available at the time £40m looked pretty steep and either chelsea scouts knew something nobody else did, or they got lucky but that was a very big sale at the time for a bench player

 

[MadDogg]

Of course you blame the recruitment team for it. He hasn't got a role in the team and no one wants to take him off our hands. You can't get a more clear cut failure of a transfer.

The point is that there isn't a recruitment team in the history of the game that hasn't made signings that didn't work. 'Blaming' the recruitment team and calling the club 'idiots' for every one of those is unfair in my books. Sometimes you have to take calculated risks and sometimes those risks don't pay off. Zirkzee fits in that category for me. I've got no problem with taking the chance on him even though it didn't end up working out.

We bought Ugarte at the same time and he's someone that I'd be more critical about.

 

[BorisManUtd]

Hopefully if it's an obligation there's no clause regarding number of performances so they do what Villa did regarding Harvey Elliot.

 

[Xeque_279]

There is a decent player but he's not suited to the PL. He has his moments where he looks very good but he just doesn't have the speed, physicality (strange to say based on his size) or the aggressiveness.

This more than anything else. He's actually quite strong and has decent long strides + ball control but he always looks like he's playing in second gear. No fight in him. Tries to be a Berba, but Berba knew exactly when to switch on his "aggressiveness" he just looked smooth doing it.

 

[Lash]

The point is that there isn't a recruitment team in the history of the game that hasn't made signings that didn't work. 'Blaming' the recruitment team and calling the club 'idiots' for every one of those is unfair in my books. Sometimes you have to take calculated risks and sometimes those risks don't pay off. Zirkzee fits in that category for me. I've got no problem with taking the chance on him even though it didn't end up working out.

We bought Ugarte at the same time and he's someone that I'd be more critical about.

The only part that was calculated, was that he had a relatively low fee. The actual thing a recruitment team is responsible, is the profile of the player, how they'd fit in the squad and what they'd bring. I would say they failed on all aspects of that. The price paid is irrelevant to the transfer in my opinion when they don't get those bits right.

I'd be critical of both, they were both wholly inapproriate players for our squad. I can see more of the reasoning with Ugarte, because we were missing the profile of a ball winner, his limitations just got exposed even further in the prem - I've even said, i think he'd do well in the right set up elsewhere. At no point were missing a 10/false 9 and he wasn't even much of a goalscorer. There was a lot pinned on him exceeding what he did in Serie A and also the intensity questions were there at Bologna, so I'm not really sure you can classify it as a calculated risk. It was just a big risk.

 

[Stickz]

He has zero fire. See ya.

 

[Aint gota Kalou]

The only part that was calculated, was that he had a relatively low fee. The actual thing a recruitment team is responsible, is the profile of the player, how they'd fit in the squad and what they'd bring. I would say they failed on all aspects of that. The price paid is irrelevant to the transfer in my opinion when they don't get those bits right.

I'd be critical of both, they were both wholly inapproriate players for our squad. I can see more of the reasoning with Ugarte, because we were missing the profile of a ball winner, his limitations just got exposed even further in the prem - I've even said, i think he'd do well in the right set up elsewhere. At no point were missing a 10/false 9 and he wasn't even much of a goalscorer. There was a lot pinned on him exceeding what he did in Serie A and also the intensity questions were there at Bologna, so I'm not really sure you can classify it as a calculated risk. It was just a big risk.

I think he was meant as a Martial replacement for Ten Hag. You can sort of see the similarities in the way they play back to goal, bring others into play and have runners go past them. Hasn't worked obviously but that was the logic. Martial was actually good around goal mind

 

[Lash]

I think he was meant as a Martial replacement for Ten Hag. You can sort of see the similarities in the way they play back to goal, bring others into play and have runners go past them. Hasn't worked obviously but that was the logic. Martial was actually good around goal mind

Martial could go past players though as well. Zirkzee sort of has only half of that. He has that same silkiness on the ball though, so I can see the comparison.