Jude Bellingham | Real Madrid player

[giorno]

Are we watching the same games?

I took his heat map from last season

This is not the heat map of a #10.

Last season Bellingham often got shunted left midfield because Vini/Mbappe never tracked back and both liked to drift left so it left a gaping hole down that side that Bellingham got put there to cover for.

As I said, last season he was being forced into a deeper, more all-pitch midfield role, and his performances suffered for it

He was still the most advanced of our midfielders though, hence still nominally the "AM"

 

[MassVolto]

It wasn't the last game. It was close to the end of the season though, I think 3rd or 4th last game. A question though if also by we went so far forward given they were defending a one goal lead in the last minute.

A bit more context is that they had already given up a two goal lead against 10 men after conceding two late goals but then took the lead again in stoppage time. There should not have been any reason for Bellingham to run forward and lead space behind for a counter.

After watching the replay I don't understand how on earth you can put the blame on him for that equalizer instead for their defence.

VfB Stuttgart vs Dortmund 3-3 (goal Silas)​

And Bellingham didn't even feature on their last game of the season(2-2 vs Mainz) at home when they only needed victory to seal the title.

 

[hasanejaz88]

After watching the replay I don't understand how on earth you can put the blame on him for that equalizer instead for their defence.

VfB Stuttgart vs Dortmund 3-3 (goal Silas)​

And Bellingham didn't even feature on their last game of the season(2-2 vs Mainz) at home when they only needed victory to seal the title.

Bellingham is seen high up the pitch when Stuttgart have the ball and he is literally jogging to get back into defense eventhough he can see Stuttgart have a clear advantage in attack. Jamie Gittens, a winger, is putting in more effort to get into that box to defend.

The two criticism are one what he's doing so far up the pitch when it's the last minute and they're up a goal and second is his effort getting back. Would he have stopped the goal? Maybe or maybe not but the point is you'd expect your central midfielder to not be waiting on others to defend the area he's supposed to be in but rather breaking his lungs trying to get back. That's the reason for my comment on his lack of intelligence to play the CM role and how he can sometimes drop his effort.

I don't know why you're referring to the last game against Mainz. I know he didn't play and I never said he did.

 

[lexisonfire]

Saw Madrid v Juve, this basically was Bellingham's position

If Xabi wants to play Guler in midfield, it seems Jude will be pushed into the SS role where he must score to justify his place. In his 1st Madrid season he also played that role due to Ancelotti lacking strikers and was a shooin for that "Best players who couldn't do their main job" thread because he scored plenty, but Mbappe's there now so he's the secondary goal threat who also does a bit of midfielding.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

To me, he has stagnated as so many English players have. He had all the attributes of a great midfielder but his work rate and attitude remind me of Pogba mk. 2

Yeah because foreign players haven't stagnated at all.

 

[Bosnian_fan]

Arda Guler is quite clearly way more capable playmaker than Bellingham. His main strength is not with ball in possession.

 

[cpresc]

Maybe Real would cash in to rebalance their squad

Baleba and Bellingham


Yeah that'll do

 

[devil99]

Maybe Real would cash in to rebalance their squad

Baleba and Bellingham


Yeah that'll do

No Bellingham please. We need a proper CM, not Lampard wannabe

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Last season JB had elite defensive numbers. How anyone could have watched structureless Real Madrid last season and pegged him as a problem off the ball is beyond understanding....

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Bossing the El Classico. Goal and a beautiful assist.

 

[lexisonfire]

Finding form again after his shoulder injury. Folks were judging him too harshly given he missed pre-season and the first few fixtures under a new coach to get overdue surgery which was postponed for years(?) so he could play for Ancelotti, and needed to fight his way back into the lineup. Tuchel clearly gave him time off so he could re-integrate better into Xabi's team.

 

[redNATION]

Hopefully he wants to move home one day, we should be looking to bring him back to England soon.

 

[caisenma]

No Bellingham please. We need a proper CM, not Lampard wannabe

absolute quality player and we'd be lucky to get him in any position, including GK. (hyperbole but you get my idea)

 

[TheReligion]

Maybe Real would cash in to rebalance their squad

Baleba and Bellingham


Yeah that'll do

Bellingham and Anderson

 

[Bwuk]

Hopefully he wants to move home one day, we should be looking to bring him back to England soon.

Doubt it'll ever happen but he'd be the dream Bruno replacement.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

This thread is so representative of why England players are often underperforming in the shirt

Quite possibly the most complete English central midfielder I've seen in my lifetime and people deride him as a poor man's frank lampard.

Like what does he have to do to actually get respect?

Guy is in his early 20s, won everything there is to win already, 3rd in balon dor and everyone is looking for a reason to call him shit

Compare the attitude to the German fans and wirtz. Despite being shit for Liverpool, everyone still backs him defends him and has faith in him. Yet Bellingham has walked the walk and everyone still questions everything

 

[giggs-beckham]

This thread is so representative of why England players are often underperforming in the shirt

Quite possibly the most complete English central midfielder I've seen in my lifetime and people deride him as a poor man's frank lampard.

Like what does he have to do to actually get respect?

Guy is in his early 20s, won everything there is to win already, 3rd in balon dor and everyone is looking for a reason to call him shit

Compare the attitude to the German fans and wirtz. Despite being shit for Liverpool, everyone still backs him defends him and has faith in him. Yet Bellingham has walked the walk and everyone still questions everything

For some reason we like to try and take our best players off a pedestal.
Beckham, Rooney, Bellingham

 

[caisenma]

This thread is so representative of why England players are often underperforming in the shirt

Quite possibly the most complete English central midfielder I've seen in my lifetime and people deride him as a poor man's frank lampard.

Like what does he have to do to actually get respect?

Guy is in his early 20s, won everything there is to win already, 3rd in balon dor and everyone is looking for a reason to call him shit

Compare the attitude to the German fans and wirtz. Despite being shit for Liverpool, everyone still backs him defends him and has faith in him. Yet Bellingham has walked the walk and everyone still questions everything

Exactly this. Couldn’t have put it better

 

[caisenma]

Also, omg imagine if we got a Lampard wannabe in our squad. Shock horror, etc etc… a poor man’s Lampard would still be welcome

 

[hasanejaz88]

This thread is so representative of why England players are often underperforming in the shirt

Quite possibly the most complete English central midfielder I've seen in my lifetime and people deride him as a poor man's frank lampard.

Like what does he have to do to actually get respect?

Guy is in his early 20s, won everything there is to win already, 3rd in balon dor and everyone is looking for a reason to call him shit

Compare the attitude to the German fans and wirtz. Despite being shit for Liverpool, everyone still backs him defends him and has faith in him. Yet Bellingham has walked the walk and everyone still questions everything

Maybe it stems from his performances for England, which haven't been as good as that for Madrid? He was disappointing in Euro' 24 and Tuchel has even talked about not having him in the first XI.

For Germany, we've rarely had a player who wasn't great at club and national team level. The one player who you could say didn't replicate club form with national team, because of how great that club form was, was Kroos. Non-Germany fans would not think it's a debate between Kroos and someone like Schweinsteiger/Ballack but for Germany fans (other than @Zehner ) it might be one given how they played for the NT.

For England fans, it might that the NT counts for more and what they see is an over hyped player, based on his Madrid performances, who isn't performing the same for England.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Also, omg imagine if we got a Lampard wannabe in our squad. Shock horror, etc etc… a poor man’s Lampard would still be welcome

"hah! what a mug! This CB thinks he amazing but he's just a poor mans Baresi!"

But seriously, some of the posts and opinions have been shocking. Some guy earlier said that they wouldn't fit in at United

I would personally drive any one of Mainoo/Ugarte/Casemiro/Bruno to Manchester Airport if it meant Bellingham replaced them.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Maybe it stems from his performances for England, which haven't been as good as that for Madrid? He was disappointing in Euro' 24 and Tuchel has even talked about not having him in the first XI.

For Germany, we've rarely had a player who wasn't great at club and national team level. The one player who you could say didn't replicate club form with national team, because of how great that club form was, was Kroos. Non-Germany fans would not think it's a debate between Kroos and someone like Schweinsteiger/Ballack but for Germany fans (other than @Zehner ) it might be one given how they played for the NT.

For England fans, it might that the NT counts for more and what they see is an over hyped player, based on his Madrid performances, who isn't performing the same for England.

But it's just silly analysis by people who think he's overhyped based on international football.

The real question is, over time who has actually played well for England in the major tournaments?

all of the stars fail.

And at that point you have to realize that its not the players its the system and manager (Southgate, really).

Let me ask you this:

France scored 1 goal in open play in 900 minutes in Euro's 2024. Do French people think Doue, Mbappe, Dembele, Griezmann etc are shit because Deschamps set up the most negative anti-football France has ever seen? Of course not, it's irrational.

Do French people think Cantona was over-hyped because of his meh performances for France?

 

[giorno]

Quite possibly the most complete English central midfielder I've seen in my lifetime and people deride him as a poor man's frank lampard.

He's absolutely not a central midfielder though

Like, that's a very good way to make him look bad

 

[AfonsoAlves]

He's absolutely not a central midfielder though

Like, that's a very good way to make him look bad

Your idea of a CM is very different to mine.

Not all CM's have to be Kroos/Modric/Busquets/Xavi/Scholes style of footballer.

Put it this way, what sort of attributes does Bellingham not have, that someone like Michael Essien has?

Huge engine, can pick a pass, can score goals, can tackle, can intercept, can dribble, can drive the ball forward, can break the lines. Like literally a throwback to a 90's/00's B2B midfielder.

This whole modern era tiki-taka shite has made people forget what an actual central midfielder was supposed to do.

I mean frankly the reason why Madrid bought him in the first place was because of his outstanding performances in that role at BvB.

It was by pure luck that Ancelotti found out that Bellingham is amazing in the #10/false 9 role due to injuries and the only other option being Joselu.

 

[hasanejaz88]

But it's just silly analysis by people who think he's overhyped based on international football.

The real question is, over time who has actually played well for England in the major tournaments?

all of the stars fail.

And at that point you have to realize that its not the players its the system and manager (Southgate, really).

Let me ask you this:

France scored 1 goal in open play in 900 minutes in Euro's 2024. Do French people think Doue, Mbappe, Dembele, Griezmann etc are shit because Deschamps set up the most negative anti-football France has ever seen? Of course not, it's irrational.

Do French people think Cantona was over-hyped because of his meh performances for France?

The French comparison is just not the same because Mbappe and Griezman have won the World Cup and taken their team to another WC final, with Mbappe scoring a hat trick in the final. They have cemented their national team legacy already and in a way French fans may rate Griezmann higher than non-France fans might because of his national team legacy. Can't say about Cantona though, I have a friend who's a big PSG fan but he's too young to have seen Cantona

He's absolutely not a central midfielder though

Like, that's a very good way to make him look bad

Exactly. England playing him as a CM is misprofiling him. Tuchel might not see a tactical way to play Bellingham in his best position, outside of CM, but then one can question if you should try to get that best out of Bellingham and build your squad around that.

 

[caisenma]

He's absolutely not a central midfielder though

Like, that's a very good way to make him look bad

Genuine question for you… who’s better box to box?

 

[AfonsoAlves]

The French comparison is just not the same because Mbappe and Griezman have won the World Cup and taken their team to another WC final, with Mbappe scoring a hat trick in the final. They have cemented their national team legacy already and in a way French fans may rate Griezmann higher than non-France fans might because of his national team legacy. Can't say about Cantona though, I have a friend who's a big PSG fan but he's too young to have seen Cantona



Exactly. England playing him as a CM is misprofiling him. Tuchel might not see a tactical way to play Bellingham in his best position, outside of CM, but then one can question if you should try to get that best out of Bellingham and build your squad around that.

Do Brazilians think Vinicius is shite because of his pretty under-par performances for Brazil?
I don't think so to be honest.

It seems to be a very uniquely English fans thing.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Genuine question for you… who’s better box to box?

Valverde is a better defensive box to box, Bellingham is a better attacking B2B.

Depends what sort of player you're looking for in the team.

I have a bias against Valverde because he has this stupid fan driven tendency to take stupid shots from 35 yards out, 1 in 15 gets top cornered, so everytime he gets the ball near the box, the fans all shout (SHOOOOOOOOT, or the spanish equivalent) and he mostly skies it.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

The French comparison is just not the same because Mbappe and Griezman have won the World Cup and taken their team to another WC final, with Mbappe scoring a hat trick in the final. They have cemented their national team legacy already and in a way French fans may rate Griezmann higher than non-France fans might because of his national team legacy. Can't say about Cantona though, I have a friend who's a big PSG fan but he's too young to have seen Cantona



Exactly. England playing him as a CM is misprofiling him. Tuchel might not see a tactical way to play Bellingham in his best position, outside of CM, but then one can question if you should try to get that best out of Bellingham and build your squad around that.

But how is England playing him as a CM misprofiling him? (England didn't under last few years of Southgate, he was #10)

His performances in his England early career (in 2022 world cup, incl vs France etc) were all in CM, and he more than held up his own in that position against the eventual finalists. He also spent his entire Dortmund career there.

It was only when he started scoring a goal a game at the start of the 23' La Liga season did England also put him further forward.

You could argue that Bellingham is a better #10 than he is a #8, but it doesn't mean he's misprofiled by playing as #8.

This isn't like Trent being played at DM or Kaka being played at CM (Yeah that somehow happened). Bellingham is a tried and tested top class CM for 3 seasons at Dortmund and England.

 

[lexisonfire]

@AfonsoAlves
Agree with all your views re: English fans and media being knobs, but Bellingham isn't a CM or a Bruno replacement. He's best utilised as a AM/SS aka roaming hybrid forward without a defined position; his coaches trust him to drop deep to press, link up, or win possession in midfield when needed and create overloads in the box once the chance arises. One of his strengths is getting into goalscoring positions in the box so playing too deep as a 6/8 doesn't maximise his utility.

Nevertheless it's funny he's toned down his attitude and celebrations due to Tuchel's mum's views , perhaps also due to the fallout from his parents' intrusive behaviour wrt Jobe. No more Christ the Redeemer poses, Tuchel and Xabi are putting pressure on him to improve and show he's a no-nonsense key player.

 

[giorno]

Put it this way, what sort of attributes does Bellingham not have, that someone like Michael Essien has?

Defensive awareness, decision making on and off the ball

More importantly - Essien's best skill wasn't crashing the box and scoring

Huge engine, can pick a pass, can score goals, can tackle, can intercept, can dribble, can drive the ball forward, can break the lines. Like literally a throwback to a 90's/00's B2B midfielder.

There's a reason we no longer see those 90s type B2B midfielders anymore. Nowadays, even box to box players are more specialized

Bellingham's best attributes are attacking ones. Ask him to play B2B you lose those and you're left with what exactly? Huge engine, sure. Can tackle, sure, can intercept, sure. Too bad his awareness and decision making aren't good enough to make him a high level defensive player. Can pick a pass, can drive the ball, sure. Too bad he's not an above average passer and his ball carrying is great, but generally needs space to operate - he's neither an Iniesta nor a Dembele

Quite simply - the more you ask him to do, the more pitch you ask him to cover, the worse he'll play and the less impactful he'll become

and his attacking impact is simply too great to ask him to focus on anything else

This whole modern era tiki-taka shite has made people forget what an actual central midfielder was supposed to do.

There's not a single "actual central midfielder" of the type you mean that could play the same way now as they did in the 90s. Football has moved on

 

[AfonsoAlves]

Defensive awareness, decision making on and off the ball

More importantly - Essien's best skill wasn't crashing the box and scoring

There's a reason we no longer see those 90s type B2B midfielders anymore. Nowadays, even box to box players are more specialized

Bellingham's best attributes are attacking ones. Ask him to play B2B you lose those and you're left with what exactly? Huge engine, sure. Can tackle, sure, can intercept, sure. Too bad his awareness and decision making aren't good enough to make him a high level defensive player. Can pick a pass, can drive the ball, sure. Too bad he's not an above average passer and his ball carrying is great, but generally needs space to operate - he's neither an Iniesta nor a Dembele

Quite simply - the more you ask him to do, the more pitch you ask him to cover, the worse he'll play and the less impactful he'll become

and his attacking impact is simply too great to ask him to focus on anything else

There's not a single "actual central midfielder" of the type you mean that could play the same way now as they did in the 90s. Football has moved on

I really disagree with this:

He played that role at Dortmund and was great.

Julian Brandt was the main attacking midfielder of the 3. Bellingham's job was do a bit of everything. He was so good in that role you guys decided to splash 100 million on him.

Prior to you buying him he had never played closer to the top of the pitch. Everything Madrid saw in him was playing the exact position that I described, the B2B all action midfielder.

He's not an above average passer? Come on mate, even today's pass. You think Ugarte could have played that pass?

There are also valid criticisms for Bellingham like his ability to waste energy chasing down balls that are lost, or being a bit petulant, or sometimes dribbling the ball down blind alleys. But I've yet to see any indication that defensively, Bellingham lacks awareness and decision making.

Even those games in the CL where he was camped in his own half, or when he shunted left midfielder to provide cover, did he do anything silly or lead to any chances for the opposition which made you think, "shit, what was Bellingham doing defensively there?"

 

[ForeverRed1]

What a baller.

 

[giorno]

I mean frankly the reason why Madrid bought him in the first place was because of his outstanding performances in that role at BvB.

In which he mostly played the role in much the same way Bruno Fernandes is doing for United

It was by pure luck that Ancelotti found out that Bellingham is amazing in the #10/false 9 role due to injuries and the only other option being Joselu.

Wasn't luck, they saw him in training and realized he's WAY better in attack than midfield

Genuine question for you… who’s better box to box?

Valverde

But how is England playing him as a CM misprofiling him? (England didn't under last few years of Southgate, he was #10)

His performances in his England early career (in 2022 world cup, incl vs France etc) were all in CM, and he more than held up his own in that position against the eventual finalists.

he played with Rice and Mount against Iran and USA, didn't work in the latter and Southgate promptly dropped Mount for Henderson. So he played in a midfield of Rice, Henderson, Bellingham

He also spent his entire Dortmund career there.

Dortmund fan answered this

It was only when he started scoring a goal a game at the start of the 23' La Liga season did England also put him further forward.

No, it's actually England that first started pushing him forward, and he shined in the role

You could argue that Bellingham is a better #10 than he is a #8, but it doesn't mean he's misprofiled by playing as #8.

Semantics. The point is you don't want him staying in midfield, and you don't want him to have too many midfielder responsibilities, because it's a waste of his attacking talents, and also he's good at most of those "midfielder" stuff, but he's not great

 

[giorno]

I really disagree with this:

He played that role at Dortmund and was great.

He wasn't. Dortmund were a disaster defensively

He's not an above average passer? Come on mate, even today's pass. You think Ugarte could have played that pass?

Ugarte is a below average passer

Bellingham isn't making those passes every match. He can pull it off, once in a while, but in general, his passing is nothing remarkable. Especially when it comes to progressing the ball. His decision making and pass selections are *not* those of a central midfielder

You want to see a truly great passer in this Madrid team? Look at Arda Guler

But I've yet to see any indication that defensively, Bellingham lacks awareness and decision making.

Watch him more, don't know what else to tell you

Even those games in the CL where he was camped in his own half, or when he shunted left midfielder to provide cover, did he do anything silly or lead to any chances for the opposition which made you think, "shit, what was Bellingham doing defensively there?"

Yes. It's mostly awareness - bad positioning, losing track of his man, coming out aggressively when he shouldn't, etc

Fml, just look at both of Spain's goals in the euro final and you can immediately see clear examples of this

What it boils down to is that he's just naturally an attacking player. He has the decision making and awerenss of an attacking player, not a central midfielder

 

[Hammondo]

Your idea of a CM is very different to mine.

Not all CM's have to be Kroos/Modric/Busquets/Xavi/Scholes style of footballer.

Put it this way, what sort of attributes does Bellingham not have, that someone like Michael Essien has?

Huge engine, can pick a pass, can score goals, can tackle, can intercept, can dribble, can drive the ball forward, can break the lines. Like literally a throwback to a 90's/00's B2B midfielder.

This whole modern era tiki-taka shite has made people forget what an actual central midfielder was supposed to do.

I mean frankly the reason why Madrid bought him in the first place was because of his outstanding performances in that role at BvB.

It was by pure luck that Ancelotti found out that Bellingham is amazing in the #10/false 9 role due to injuries and the only other option being Joselu.

Defensive positioning, dictating play through passing.

 

[AfonsoAlves]

He wasn't. Dortmund were a disaster defensively

Ugarte is a below average passer

Bellingham isn't making those passes every match. He can pull it off, once in a while, but in general, his passing is nothing remarkable. Especially when it comes to progressing the ball. His decision making and pass selections are *not* those of a central midfielder

You want to see a truly great passer in this Madrid team? Look at Arda Guler

Watch him more, don't know what else to tell you

Yes. It's mostly awareness - bad positioning, losing track of his man, coming out aggressively when he shouldn't, etc

Fml, just look at both of Spain's goals in the euro final and you can immediately see clear examples of this

I think you're going to have to qualify what you mean by an "average passer" here. Because the "average" passer in top leagues of football is someone like Scott McTominay. Bellingham is a better passer than 90% of La Liga's midfielders.

Look at both of Spain's goals in the Euro final? You mean the one where Bellingham played as a #10???

 

[giorno]

I think you're going to have to qualify what you mean by an "average passer" here. Because the "average" passer in top leagues of football is someone like Scott McTominay. Bellingham is a better passer than 90% of La Liga's midfielders.

I'm talking about central midfielders, but point. His passing is average for a central midfielder of a club of Real Madrid's status

Look at both of Spain's goals in the Euro final? You mean the one where Bellingham played as a #10???

Yes. Where he messes up the pressing structure for the first goal. Later on he dropped into a midfield 2 with Rice, look up Spain's build up and check out where Bellingham and Rice are positioned and what they (don't) do

 

[lexisonfire]

Still only 22, ample time for him to play all over the pitch in every single midfield position as he matures like Ruud Gullit (disclaimer: I'm too young to have watched Gullit's career but know of his versatility)

 

[Tallis]

So if Tuchel plays only one #10, and lets say we have agreed that Jude is best deployed as a #10 (Rice and Anderson as CMs), would you rather play Palmer or Jude ?

Foden, Eze and Morgan are options as well.