Jude Bellingham

cyberman

Full Member
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
18,351
Dortmund is a great place for young players to develop their game. Shame as we used to have the pick of the best young British and Irish talent.
We never did.
 

BalanceUnAutreJoint

Full Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
666
I detest Ajax but they undoubtly have one of the best academies in the world. They got a couple lined up again now.
As of right now and in the past 5 to 10 years they're not as good as Manchester United and a couple other academies.

They're great at post formation just like Dortmund are, which means talents like De Jong and Eriksen get mistaken as their own academy products which inflates their reputation
 

GhastlyHun

Full Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
9,354
Location
Bavaria
Supports
Bayern München
Kicker writing deal not done with BVB over differences regarding transfer fee, interest now also from Bayern along with MUFC and Chelsea.


Edit: i see i'm way late to the party, nothing to see here. ;)
 

DanClancy

Full Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2015
Messages
979
I'd be very surprised if Dortmund were prepared to match what United will pay for him.
 

ROFLUTION

Full Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
4,223
Location
Denmark
Surely we're letting Dortmund have him, so we can get Sancho?

There's gotta be some sort of entanglement there, where we scratch each other's backs.
 

KM

I’m afraid I just blue myself
Joined
Sep 18, 2008
Messages
47,730
German media are a bit late on this aren't they, it has always been reported that Birmingham are looking for 30m pounds.

I'd be surprised if Dortmund are willing to pay 30m for him right now, however I think they'll probably add in the sell in clause so that whenever in next two-three years, Bellingham leaves Dortmund for a big club, both parties can profit.
 

gajender

Full Member
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
786
German media are a bit late on this aren't they, it has always been reported that Birmingham are looking for 30m pounds.

I'd be surprised if Dortmund are willing to pay 30m for him right now, however I think they'll probably add in the sell in clause so that whenever in next two-three years, Bellingham leaves Dortmund for a big club, both parties can profit.
What kind of player is he an attacker or CM because if he is more suited to midfield role then Dortmund would be taking big risk in buying him for high transfer fee because midfielders generally don't command fees similar to Attackers.
 

KM

I’m afraid I just blue myself
Joined
Sep 18, 2008
Messages
47,730
What kind of player is he an attacker or CM because if he is more suited to midfield role then Dortmund would be taking big risk in buying him for high transfer fee because midfielders generally don't command fees similar to Attackers.
He is a CM, but from all accounts he's a generational talent and I think Dortmund are banking on the fact that his value will increase. I mean it's not normal for three-four clubs be willing to pay more 20m euros for a 16yr old.
 

GhastlyHun

Full Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2015
Messages
9,354
Location
Bavaria
Supports
Bayern München
Are they reliable?

I'd expect Dortmund to get the deal over the line, there's not a massive difference in valuations by the sounds of things.
Quite reliable, but they're not saying a lot here, really.
 

Grande

Full Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
2,778
Location
The Land of Do-What-You-Will
Very good points but I think I have to make a little bit clearer why I mentioned Pogba's development after his return.

Players in different stages of their career need different circumstances at the club. As a young player playing for academy teams, United has probably always been a very, very good destination because chances are that even under Mourinho they will trust you and grant you minutes in the first team eventually - more so than other clubs of a similar calibre. However, if you're in a situation like Sancho, Haaland or Havertz, playing time at a club is also a concern but I would say it is not the primary one since you just take that for granted at this stage. Once you've established yourself as one of footballs brightest prospects, your next goal is to prove that you can perform at a very high level at an elite club. And that's not only up to you. As an attacking player, I'd argue that it is a lot easier to shine at City than it was at United under Mourinho. And IMO, that's the most important reason why talents develop that well at Dortmund. Ever since Klopp, they employed coaches that had a clear philosophy in which every player knew what to do. They always have a shared approach of how to build up and execute their attacks and those patterns make it a lot easier for young players to shine and become better - after all, they find themselves in a lot more situations and gain more experience and routine through that.

And that's why I, among other United players, mentioned Pogba's development after his return as a reason why your reputation took a hit. Because all those things that make life easier for young attacking players at Dortmund, he didn't really encounter in his first years at United. So for Sancho "Pogba's story" may be more interesting than those of academy players getting minutes at the first team - because he can assume that the club signs him for >100m his starting spot is pretty much guaranteed so that his situation is more comparable to him than that of a youth player. As I said, I believe things are beginning to change and so is United's reputation again, but there are still some question marks that only time and more proof of the contrary will eliminate.

Regarding Rashford: I admit I'm not an expert on the player. You can't follow the development of every young player that closely so you guys obviously have way more insights than I do. I base my judgement on the fact that when he came through, he was highly decorated (and rightly so because he's got all the ability) and at times even compared to Mbappe and based on that standard, I think he was expected to develop much better than he eventually did. And I also think he would've made the step he is currently doing much earlier if it hadn't been for Mourinho's destructive ideas regarding football. Same goes for Martial and obviously, that is something a youngster considers before a move. But again: It takes some time to change your reputation. That doesn't mean that I think it still is like that. You could actually be doing a better job than Dortmund in the past 6 months without anyone noticing who's not paying very close attention.

Bellingham by the way is a very unique case because he's already one of the world's most demanded youngsters but also still incredibly young.



See, in the situation of a player like Sancho, Havertz or Haaland willing to make the next step after already having established yourself, your aim is not to get into the squad but to look as good as possible in an already strong team. And for that it is not that important if the club is good at integrating youth players but rather if it provides a functioning team which makes it easier for you to shine. United exemplarily is much better than City at integrating youth products but as of now, an attacker has it much easier to shine (and develop) at City's offense (given he makes it into the team) where one gear fits perfectly into the other. That's a huge part of the reason why Dortmund is so successful at developing young players. They always have a coach with a clear philosophy where every player knows what he has to do. And they play an attacking brandt of football which makes it easy to shine. On top of that, they plan with you since it is their business model, as you already mentioned.

As an academy player choosing the club at which he starts his professional career, however, you're probably looking for something different. Of course it is always nice to find yourself in a working tactical structure but your primary concern is to get your first minutes etc. So if I were Sancho, I'd definitely take a profound look at Pogba's development after his return which IMO was greatly hindered by different coaches, occasionally poor team mates and so forth. I believe Pogba, although I'm not a fan of his, would have had it much easier under a more attack minding coach than Mourinho. United just hasn't been a team in which things just work out, with player synergies, attacking patterns etc. And theoretically
That's what I mean with reputation.
I understand what you mean regarding Pogba and reputation, and agree, you have good points there. I think you are right about Dortmund having a reputation as a good stage to develop, not only because of playing time but also a rep for attacking minded and structured coaches and a good environment to grow. Mourinho ironically probably made us attractive to players for a while, before he made us dissuasive to players.

I thinkthe Pogba23-26 example is relevant to Sancho at 20. Hopefully (for us ...) Sancho will see how all new players under Solskjær fit in a do well almost instantly, and creative players now flourish with other creative players around them. I would get why Sancho would hestitate a year ago, looking at United.

Haaland think is a different matter. He clearly both knows and regards Solskjær very highly. For him at 19 coming from Austria, I think it made a difference having a clear path to game time in his preferred role, compared to competing with more established Martial and possibly Rashford. It also made a difference with United’s relation to Raiola (and vice versa!) and willingness to accept the same conditions that Dortmund did. United might have stretched further if we didn’t have a generational talent in the same position already. I am almost willing to bet Haaland would have played for United now with any other agent, though - due to his very positive relation to Solskjær.

Bellingham is another story. I think it’s obvious for his family that Dortmund’s stability and slightly better protection from public scrutiny is a plus, but the chances of being phased into a midfield where players like Pogba, Bruno, Fred, Matic, McTominay already are fighting for 3 spots, and a player like Angel Gomes, rated on the same level of Sancho when they were Bellinghams age, is reviewing his options closely at 19. How far would United stretch to guarantee Bellingham game time at 18 (after a loan back) when they are very optimistic about the development of players like Garner and Mejbri?

Also, I think, if Sancho 17, where leaving Manchester City today instead of two years ago, I think United would look a very interesting prospect to him. Being from Manchester, he would see a team where youngsters come in and do well, and he would see a team forming that has good players and an open hole at RW. He wouldn’t even have to move. He would be in contact with people telling him there’s a good vibe, great belief and a good environment to grow at Old atrafford these days, opposite to how it was under Mourinho. He would be updated on the basis for our reputation, you could say. Ironically, it would be an impossible move for him all the same, a generational talent going to the arch rivals, the Abu Dhabi would kidnap him and put him on a camel back in a jiffy.
 

Zehner

Full Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
2,125
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen
I understand what you mean regarding Pogba and reputation, and agree, you have good points there. I think you are right about Dortmund having a reputation as a good stage to develop, not only because of playing time but also a rep for attacking minded and structured coaches and a good environment to grow. Mourinho ironically probably made us attractive to players for a while, before he made us dissuasive to players.

I thinkthe Pogba23-26 example is relevant to Sancho at 20. Hopefully (for us ...) Sancho will see how all new players under Solskjær fit in a do well almost instantly, and creative players now flourish with other creative players around them. I would get why Sancho would hestitate a year ago, looking at United.

Haaland think is a different matter. He clearly both knows and regards Solskjær very highly. For him at 19 coming from Austria, I think it made a difference having a clear path to game time in his preferred role, compared to competing with more established Martial and possibly Rashford. It also made a difference with United’s relation to Raiola (and vice versa!) and willingness to accept the same conditions that Dortmund did. United might have stretched further if we didn’t have a generational talent in the same position already. I am almost willing to bet Haaland would have played for United now with any other agent, though - due to his very positive relation to Solskjær.

Bellingham is another story. I think it’s obvious for his family that Dortmund’s stability and slightly better protection from public scrutiny is a plus, but the chances of being phased into a midfield where players like Pogba, Bruno, Fred, Matic, McTominay already are fighting for 3 spots, and a player like Angel Gomes, rated on the same level of Sancho when they were Bellinghams age, is reviewing his options closely at 19. How far would United stretch to guarantee Bellingham game time at 18 (after a loan back) when they are very optimistic about the development of players like Garner and Mejbri?

Also, I think, if Sancho 17, where leaving Manchester City today instead of two years ago, I think United would look a very interesting prospect to him. Being from Manchester, he would see a team where youngsters come in and do well, and he would see a team forming that has good players and an open hole at RW. He wouldn’t even have to move. He would be in contact with people telling him there’s a good vibe, great belief and a good environment to grow at Old atrafford these days, opposite to how it was under Mourinho. He would be updated on the basis for our reputation, you could say. Ironically, it would be an impossible move for him all the same, a generational talent going to the arch rivals, the Abu Dhabi would kidnap him and put him on a camel back in a jiffy.
I generally agree with most of your points. The only one I'm not so sure about is the Haaland one. Raiola has obviously played his part but I think he as an agent often simply recklessly pursues the interests of his clients. People like to put the blame on him for "persuading" players to do certain things that make him richer but I don't really think it's the case. Players engage him because they know what they want and that he goes the extra mile to achieve that, often using shady measurements if necessary. I mean, the story of Raiola, Dortmund and United is quite ironic. It basically began with Dortmund and Mkhitaryan "employing" Raiola to get Mkhitaryan out of his contract at Donezk who were not willing to let him go. He achieved that and Dortmund profited from his ways. Then it came back to haunt them when Mkhitaryan wanted to leave for United after his first good season. Again he got what he wanted and United profited from his ways. Then a few years later, United is furious again because Haaland ultimately ended up at Dortmund. Clubs like to point out how bad Raiola is but they happily accept his ways when it means they profit from it. So I don't think all that insisting on the release clause came from Raiola. It came from Haaland and his father and Raiola was just the one instructed to get the best deal.

But yes, you're right, especially for English talents who will recognize the positive developments at United a lot earlier, it is already an attractive option. And I also think that squad vacancies play a huge role in those decisions, too. But then again, this also speaks for Dortmund's attractiveness for young players. As you said, United doesn't develop talents with the intention of selling them. I believe Dortmund would be happy to hold on to Sancho and co. for as long as possible, too, but they know they won't be able too - at least not now or in the next 2-3 years. Players know that, too, so even if there's some young hugely talented player ahead of them in the hierarchy, they expect him to leave within the next two seasons, making room for them. That's different with you. If you get Sancho and play him at RW (personally I still believe the LW will get the most out of his skill set so he'll ultimately end up there), you most likely won't be able to sign another young talent for the same spot since they want to avoid this competition. It's a similar situation with Bellingham, as you pointed out.
 

Tom Cato

Full Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
2,168
I am so butthurt that he's not choosing Manchester United. Rolling in salt over here.
 

Kasper

Full Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2013
Messages
2,506
Supports
Hansa Rostock / Bradford City
This thread is a car crash :lol:
Apart from the fact which club is the greatestest at developing players I'm shocked about the transfer sums being thrown around. £20-30m for a 16 year old who's out of contract next year? That's crazy, I mean I understand that he's highly rated but such sums used to be the norm for incredibly talented 18-19 years old with international and top level football experience, not someone with 35 games in the championship (impressive nevertheless).
 

2ndTouch

Full Member
Joined
Mar 13, 2015
Messages
1,754
Supports
Bayern München
This thread is a car crash :lol:
Apart from the fact which club is the greatestest at developing players I'm shocked about the transfer sums being thrown around. £20-30m for a 16 year old who's out of contract next year? That's crazy, I mean I understand that he's highly rated but such sums used to be the norm for incredibly talented 18-19 years old with international and top level football experience, not someone with 35 games in the championship (impressive nevertheless).
Influx of TV money creating inflation, simple as that. Those "incredibly talented 18-19 years old with international and top level football experience" go for 50-60mill nowdays.
 

Grande

Full Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
2,778
Location
The Land of Do-What-You-Will
I generally agree with most of your points. The only one I'm not so sure about is the Haaland one. Raiola has obviously played his part but I think he as an agent often simply recklessly pursues the interests of his clients. People like to put the blame on him for "persuading" players to do certain things that make him richer but I don't really think it's the case. Players engage him because they know what they want and that he goes the extra mile to achieve that, often using shady measurements if necessary. I mean, the story of Raiola, Dortmund and United is quite ironic. It basically began with Dortmund and Mkhitaryan "employing" Raiola to get Mkhitaryan out of his contract at Donezk who were not willing to let him go. He achieved that and Dortmund profited from his ways. Then it came back to haunt them when Mkhitaryan wanted to leave for United after his first good season. Again he got what he wanted and United profited from his ways. Then a few years later, United is furious again because Haaland ultimately ended up at Dortmund. Clubs like to point out how bad Raiola is but they happily accept his ways when it means they profit from it. So I don't think all that insisting on the release clause came from Raiola. It came from Haaland and his father and Raiola was just the one instructed to get the best deal.

But yes, you're right, especially for English talents who will recognize the positive developments at United a lot earlier, it is already an attractive option. And I also think that squad vacancies play a huge role in those decisions, too. But then again, this also speaks for Dortmund's attractiveness for young players. As you said, United doesn't develop talents with the intention of selling them. I believe Dortmund would be happy to hold on to Sancho and co. for as long as possible, too, but they know they won't be able too - at least not now or in the next 2-3 years. Players know that, too, so even if there's some young hugely talented player ahead of them in the hierarchy, they expect him to leave within the next two seasons, making room for them. That's different with you. If you get Sancho and play him at RW (personally I still believe the LW will get the most out of his skill set so he'll ultimately end up there), you most likely won't be able to sign another young talent for the same spot since they want to avoid this competition. It's a similar situation with Bellingham, as you pointed out.
True about Raiola, he has plenty of players who haven’t moved much. It does seem he has a ‘special bond’ to United for the time being though, all the while he has been actively working to get Pogba out of the club for two years running, all the while several times publicly criticizing the club and management for having no direction, lack of quality, bad leadership etc. I don’t know that he has done similar to Dortmund or most other clubs. It’s not that it’s outlandish criticism, more that it seems higly unlikely he would advise the Haaland family that United is a good place to go. Simultaneously, leaks imply that several peoplein the United hierarchy view Raiola as a person they’d rather stay away from, due to past experiences. Sure, there is no boicott, but it is quite the oppositeof a lubricant at any rate.

Dortmund clearly is a club many look to emulate, yet the club also show how hard and slow it is to build a plattform to withstand the Bayern hegemony, even with a big crowd, a densely populated area around and a recent history that includes succesful teams like the CL winners in 97 and a Klopps CL finalist team frim seven years ago to build on.
 

Renegade

Full Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2009
Messages
3,917
He is a CM, but from all accounts he's a generational talent and I think Dortmund are banking on the fact that his value will increase. I mean it's not normal for three-four clubs be willing to pay more 20m euros for a 16yr old.
There seems to be a fair few of these about these days.
 

BalanceUnAutreJoint

Full Member
Joined
Jan 6, 2017
Messages
666
It's hard to say whether he's a generational talent or not.

Who's to say no other 16 y.o at PL would have made it to Birmingham's 1st team.

If he had been signed by a PL club when he was younger would he have broken through in the premier league at 16?

The club he plays for plays a big role in his value at such a young age, it doesn't guarantee he is even the best 2003 in England even though he is the most proven one so far.
 

gajender

Full Member
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
786
It's hard to say whether he's a generational talent or not.

Who's to say no other 16 y.o at PL would have made it to Birmingham's 1st team.

If he had been signed by a PL club when he was younger would he have broken through in the premier league at 16?

The club he plays for plays a big role in his value at such a young age, it doesn't guarantee he is even the best 2003 in England even though he is the most proven one so far.
Just to add further it's pretty difficult to predict generational talent amongst CM's .
 

beingshe7don

Full Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2016
Messages
2,392
This saga has been drawn out so long when he's not even a superstar yet. I don't even want him anymore. I rather we utilize the money on getting a good well established DM instead.
 

redevul5566

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
5
Supports
I also support Real Mallorca.
Plus, they can always get him free from Dortmund in the future. Why spend money now?
 

carlbcfc

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 23, 2020
Messages
11
Supports
Birmingham City
Just nicked this off twitter from an account who 'scouts' the top talents in the world. His opinion of Jude is below..

Jude Bellingham:

- box-to-box midfielder
- great body mass ratio
- well-rounded, hard-working team player
- superb pace, acceleration & dribbling skills
- very good in the defensive phase
- covers a lot of ground ground
- very mature for his age World-class potential.
 

Freak

Born a freak always a freak.
Joined
May 8, 2004
Messages
19,171
Location
Somewhere in your mind, touching a nerve
My opinion is that if he was going to any of the German teams, it would have been announced by now (see Munier). So by that logic we must be waiting for the season to end before announcing him. He's coming here lads :D
 

Bastian

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2015
Messages
9,523
Can they afford Birmingham's asking price? They are apparently not going for Hakimi as they can only afford 20m euros. If they can't sign an established right back who has been absolutely brilliant for them on loan, how can they spend more on a relatively untested teenage midfielder from the Championship?

I hope Birmingham stick to their price.
 

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
Can they afford Birmingham's asking price? They are apparently not going for Hakimi as they can only afford 20m euros. If they can't sign an established right back who has been absolutely brilliant for them on loan, how can they spend more on a relatively untested teenage midfielder from the Championship?

I hope Birmingham stick to their price.
Unless Birmingham compromises on the fee then there's a real possibility this move could collapse. It's already been reported by Christian Falk that BVB are having issues with Birmingham's asking price.
 

Bastian

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2015
Messages
9,523
Unless Birmingham compromises on the fee then there's a real possibility this move could collapse. It's already been reported by Christian Falk that BVB are having issues with Birmingham's asking price.
Has there been any mention of a huge sell-on fee tied into the deal? I wonder what Ole told him regarding playing time...
 

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
Has there been any mention of a huge sell-on fee tied into the deal? I wonder what Ole told him regarding playing time...
I haven't read anything about a sell on clause. But I follow the info put out by the Birmingham journos and they have reported that the players father is leaning towards BVB due to playing time. It was also said in the same report that the players father is afraid that young Bellingham will end up being a fringe player at United.

United also briefed that they're surprised by claims in Germany that Bellingham has chosen BVB due to game time, which United feel they can match.
 

DWelbz19

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Oct 31, 2012
Messages
20,608
Just nicked this off twitter from an account who 'scouts' the top talents in the world. His opinion of Jude is below..

Jude Bellingham:

- box-to-box midfielder
- great body mass ratio
- well-rounded, hard-working team player
- superb pace, acceleration & dribbling skills
- very good in the defensive phase
- covers a lot of ground ground
- very mature for his age World-class potential.
Great to know. Wouldn’t have made it at the top level of his ratio was off.
 

Bastian

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2015
Messages
9,523
I haven't read anything about a sell on clause. But I follow the info put out by the Birmingham journos and they have reported that the players father is leaning towards BVB due to playing time. It was also said in the same report that the players father is afraid that young Bellingham will end up being a fringe player at United.

United also briefed that they're surprised by claims in Germany that Bellingham has chosen BVB due to game time, which United feel they can match.
That's really interesting. I wonder what he was told in terms of first team opportunities when we rolled out the red carpet. If Birmingham are shrewd they could sell relatively cheap and ask for a 50% sell-on, but I guess that would derail Dortmund's plan.
 

SATA

Full Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2005
Messages
10,734
Location
We all love United
Just nicked this off twitter from an account who 'scouts' the top talents in the world. His opinion of Jude is below..

Jude Bellingham:

- box-to-box midfielder
- great body mass ratio
- well-rounded, hard-working team player
- superb pace, acceleration & dribbling skills
- very good in the defensive phase
- covers a lot of ground ground
- very mature for his age World-class potential.
I see you are a Birmingham fan and you must have watch him week in week out. Without being bias, all of those scouting opinions are spot on in your opinion? That’s certainly a lot of praise there like a young Wayne Rooney would rightfully get at 18
 

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
That's really interesting. I wonder what he was told in terms of first team opportunities when we rolled out the red carpet. If Birmingham are shrewd they could sell relatively cheap and ask for a 50% sell-on, but I guess that would derail Dortmund's plan.
I don't believe a sell on would suit Dortmund at all. A 50% sell on wouldn't even be considered if Dortmund's business model is anything to go by.

On the other hand, a sell on clause in a prospective deal to us could be a possibility. But I feel we'd just pay up the compensation in full which would be more beneficial to us.
 

Sean_RedDevil

Twitter bot
Joined
Sep 12, 2004
Messages
19,369
Location
NYC (Before Manchester+Hamburg)
Watzke has said today: "Of course we are hoping that he will move to us but he is a talented player therefore it is normal many other clubs want him too."

I think he wouldn't say that if the move isn't close.
 

Adnan

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
18,244
Location
United Kingdom, England
Watzke has said today: "Of course we are hoping that he will move to us but he is a talented player therefore it is normal many other clubs want him too."

I think he wouldn't say that if the move isn't close.
Tbf he was probably asked about Bellingham and that's a pretty normal sort of reply.
 

Houdini

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Sep 20, 2017
Messages
340
It hurts me to say but Dortmund is much better for his development than us at moment...