Jules Koundé

Mainoldo

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I didn’t want to be the one to say you could have swapped him with Lindelof and not noticed the difference in performance.

It’s the exact kind of performance people would be laying into Lindelof for.
Yeah didn’t see nothing worth breaking the bank for. I wouldn’t say no but if we are going to waste money. Waste it on Haaland and Sancho.. not defenders with no star quality.
 

charlenefan

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Do we really care now about ball playing ability? Isn't the remit now for a pacy defender who can deal with 1 on 1's? It's like we've come full circle :lol:
 

BenitoSTARR

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Yeah didn’t see nothing worth breaking the bank for. I wouldn’t say no but if we are going to waste money. Waste it on Haaland and Sancho.. not defenders with no star quality.
To be fair he’s had some very good games in La Liga so I do understand why people like him. I just don’t think he’s suited to United and like you I’d much rather we spend on some world class (or potentially) talent.

Do we really care now about ball playing ability? Isn't the remit now for a pacy defender who can deal with 1 on 1's? It's like we've come full circle :lol:
Haven’t you read the memo people simply want a player that:
  1. Can dominate aerially (tall)
  2. Is aggressive
  3. Ball playing
  4. Composed
  5. Quick
  6. Can carry the ball out of defence
 

Leftback99

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Do we really care now about ball playing ability? Isn't the remit now for a pacy defender who can deal with 1 on 1's? It's like we've come full circle :lol:
It's not just ball playing ability, when are all these pacey one on one's we concede from? Just get someone that can defend properly. Upamecano's 'pace' was irrelevant last night similar to when we played them.

And arguably more importantly get someone that protects the defence well.
 

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Maguire is 93rd percentile, mid 70's success rate. But yeah, being average in the air isn't a deal breaker, it's just something to keep in mind. Ramos and Chiellini are/were both great defenders without being dominant in aerial duels everywhere. Hard to quantify that stat in terms of key moments, but its still very useful.

Sample size issues? How? Its the past year and breaking it up into per 90 stats and comparing it with every player in that position in the main 5 leagues and major European competition? Or you can break it up into any season since 17/18 (but that only compares and ranks players based on their own league, not all 5 leagues).
Also no problem! It just came out last week I think, but its great. Shows so much info. I find it's a lot more useful for on the ball/attacking/dribbling effectiveness/creativity information though. Stuff like ball progression, getting it into the box, xA/xG etc. It's good with pure shot stopping too, as you can look up the post shot xG as a difference of how many goals a goalkeeper actually conceded and see how much above or below expected they are.

Defensive stats are much harder to quantify due to the differences in styles, so much of it wouldn't be captured. Not all about tackles/clearances/aerial success rate.
I agree that the “advanced” stats are very useful, and help to form a more complete picture of a player. There are sports where the advanced stats dominate player analysis (baseball), but football is so much harder to accurately depict. Surely it will continue to get better.

Regarding sample size, when combining aerial duels over several seasons, the numbers are a more reliable depiction of ability. In a single season where there is a total of 60-70 aerial duels or less, it’s easy to see large swings in the data from season to season.
 

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Funny you say that, literally no ex professionals have said it was a foul!

I’m not doubting that, but if he actually attacked the ball with the same desire the striker had he wouldn’t have been in that mess.

he doesn’t even need to actually win the header either, just stop the striker getting anything on it, but he fails to do either.
Yes, because there was a hand getting raked across his face. Look, I’m not trying to change your overall opinion about Lindelof. I don’t really rate him myself. But that is a foul. Did Lindelof do a rather poor job of preventing him from getting to the spot? Yes. Irrelevant.
 

Bojan Djordjic

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Just to illustrate my point further Lindelof has won 70.5% of his aerial duels this season would you say that is good enough?
Where are you getting your statistics? FBref which uses statsbomb data has him winning 63.8% this year. For comparison, players we would consider to be close to the gold standard would be VVD and Konaté who win 81% and 82.6% of their aerial duels. Harry Maguire who would be seen as aerially dominant is on 76%.

This year Koundé has won about 61% of aerial duels which is slightly below Lindelof but is also significantly below his previous year (74.5%) so we know he can do better. Also for the record, this year Koundé has faced more aerial duels than Lindelof so the EPL being a much more difficult league if you're aerially weak doesn't necessarily ring through in the data. Kounde brings so much more though, he's far quicker than Lindelof, his positioning seems to be very good and his progressive passing distance per 90 is significantly higher than Maguire and Lindelof who would both be strong in this area. This is great for build up. Even his successful dribble rate is 86% compared to Lindelof's 33% and he is a very good full back when called upon.
 

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Source? this season or for his career? I am in favor of statistics, but it has to be taken as one data point vs the eye test. Almost every high pressure situation, Ramos does enough. Note that as a defender of aerial balls, your job is twofold; get a head on it, or put off an attacker enough so they can’t get a powerful strike on goal. If Chiellini shows poorly in aerial win %, then I know the stat is shit.

‘By the way, Maguire’s outstanding at winning headers at the half line, but not as great in the box. Is there a stat that covers that level of nuance?
This. I don't understand people still use stats on defender. A coward CB could have greater tackles and heading winning percentage just by playing it safe. Positioning, leadership, how he intimidate opponents are other things are not shown in stats..

It's just stupid and need to be binned.
 

Bwuk

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This. I don't understand people still use stats on defender. A coward CB could have greater tackles and heading winning percentage just by playing it safe. Positioning, leadership, how he intimidate opponents are other things are not shown in stats..

It's just stupid and need to be binned.
Stats are so over used in football. If it was that simple teams wouldn’t pay for scouts.
 

Isotope

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Stats are so over used in football. If it was that simple teams wouldn’t pay for scouts.
Agreed. I was commenting specifically to CB, though. The flaws of stats are just so big to be any use at this stage, imho.
 

bosnian_red

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Stats are so over used in football. If it was that simple teams wouldn’t pay for scouts.
Teams are using more and more advanced statistics to analyze pretty much everything in football. Important to know how to use it. But it's not just about scouting a player looks decent on the eye. Nobody can watch every minute of every player. It's a mixture of watching them, as well as reading into their stats now. Clubs should be able to make much more informed opinions on players.
 

bosnian_red

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Agreed. I was commenting specifically to CB, though. The flaws of stats are just so big to be any use at this stage, imho.
I agree they're more useful for certain things than others. Even looking at the FBref data. For goalkeeping pretty much the only use is shot stopping. For any outfield players, it's useful to read into how they are on the ball, and attackers only some off the ball stats (with progressive passes received or passes received in the box). But defensively it tells you how effectively some players pressure opponents in certain areas of the pitch, but thats heavily influenced by play style. Centerbacks especially are very hard to quantify what makes them good/bad, so I agree completely that stats shouldn't play a huge part. For attackers/wingers/midfielders, stats should play a huge part IMO, as the stats are available to give an accurate representation of their effectiveness.
 

Isotope

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I agree they're more useful for certain things than others. Even looking at the FBref data. For goalkeeping pretty much the only use is shot stopping. For any outfield players, it's useful to read into how they are on the ball, and attackers only some off the ball stats (with progressive passes received or passes received in the box). But defensively it tells you how effectively some players pressure opponents in certain areas of the pitch, but thats heavily influenced by play style. Centerbacks especially are very hard to quantify what makes them good/bad, so I agree completely that stats shouldn't play a huge part. For attackers/wingers/midfielders, stats should play a huge part IMO, as the stats are available to give an accurate representation of their effectiveness.
Absolutely agreed that stats has its many uses on other positions. You made some good examples on that.
Also "potential" is another biggest thing that's hard to quantify, unless they're the obvious one (goals, assists).
 

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I knew some people would see him up against Haaland tonight and think he isn't Utd quality, however have to remember he is still young in CB terms and is capable of growing at Utd given the opportunity
 

BenitoSTARR

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Where are you getting your statistics? FBref which uses statsbomb data has him winning 63.8% this year. For comparison, players we would consider to be close to the gold standard would be VVD and Konaté who win 81% and 82.6% of their aerial duels. Harry Maguire who would be seen as aerially dominant is on 76%.

This year Koundé has won about 61% of aerial duels which is slightly below Lindelof but is also significantly below his previous year (74.5%) so we know he can do better. Also for the record, this year Koundé has faced more aerial duels than Lindelof so the EPL being a much more difficult league if you're aerially weak doesn't necessarily ring through in the data. Kounde brings so much more though, he's far quicker than Lindelof, his positioning seems to be very good and his progressive passing distance per 90 is significantly higher than Maguire and Lindelof who would both be strong in this area. This is great for build up. Even his successful dribble rate is 86% compared to Lindelof's 33% and he is a very good full back when called upon.
https://fbref.com/en/players/f5deef4c/scout/365_euro/Victor-Lindelof-Scouting-Report

It’s 70.5% no idea what site you’re on but it’s not Fbref.
 

devilish

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He seems to be the typical square peg in a round hole signing that the club would pay silly money for. Once he's signed everyone from the club to the fans will pretend that he's good enough simply because dropping him would make the club look silly. Sevilla will probably laugh their way to the back just as Leicester did.

In my opinion we should focus on names but potential. Lets replace hopelessly injury prone players like Bailly, Tuanzebe and Jones with kids similar to what Fofana was at St Etienne and Gabriel was at Lille.
 

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Yes, because there was a hand getting raked across his face. Look, I’m not trying to change your overall opinion about Lindelof. I don’t really rate him myself. But that is a foul. Did Lindelof do a rather poor job of preventing him from getting to the spot? Yes. Irrelevant.
It's absolutely relevant, since we were a goal down after 3 minutes.

How was Kounde last night? I saw very little of the match, but conceding 3 goals in a knockout game isn't a good sign for a defence.
 

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Brentford have pretty much done this to fantastic effect

https://talksport.com/football/fa-c...-smartest-club-championship-leicester-fa-cup/

Scouts are also using data more and more as part of their own job to identify players. Analytic companies like Whyscout market to scouts as well as clubs etc.

https://wyscout.com/
We also use data but when push comes to shove it's the eye test that makes the final call and Marcel Bout who is the head of global scouting is that man.
 

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To be fair he’s had some very good games in La Liga so I do understand why people like him. I just don’t think he’s suited to United and like you I’d much rather we spend on some world class (or potentially) talent.


Haven’t you read the memo people simply want a player that:
  1. Can dominate aerially (tall)
  2. Is aggressive
  3. Ball playing
  4. Composed
  5. Quick
  6. Can carry the ball out of defence
Out of interest who would be your fit - or are you of the opinion that there's no viable upgrade over Lindelof available?

I saw you mentioned tall, quick, agile as needed traits - can't really think of who fits that bill other than Konate who has played less than 25% of total minutes since the start of last season, possibly Milenkovic but I'm not quite sure he's mobile enough, certainly as a partner to Maguire anyway.
 

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Out of interest who would be your fit - or are you of the opinion that there's no viable upgrade over Lindelof available?

I saw you mentioned tall, quick, agile as needed traits - can't really think of who fits that bill other than Konate who has played less than 25% of total minutes since the start of last season, possibly Milenkovic but I'm not quite sure he's mobile enough, certainly as a partner to Maguire anyway.
If the club feels there isn't a established player available due to the reasons you've stated. I would personally hope United do what we did with Amad Diallo for the right sided forward role and target a young CB who is showing big potential that can be developed into a world class player potentially. 20 year old Loic Bade who's at RC Lens ticks all the boxes in that regard.
 

BenitoSTARR

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Out of interest who would be your fit - or are you of the opinion that there's no viable upgrade over Lindelof available?

I saw you mentioned tall, quick, agile as needed traits - can't really think of who fits that bill other than Konate who has played less than 25% of total minutes since the start of last season, possibly Milenkovic but I'm not quite sure he's mobile enough, certainly as a partner to Maguire anyway.
The honest answer is I don’t think there is the perfect fit player around at the moment and I don’t see Kounde as even entering the serious discussion (I think it’s paper talk).

Ole wants fit players and so that places huge question marks over the one stand out candidate left in Konate.

Id honestly be happy enough to keep Maguire and Lindelof with Bailly and Tuanzebe and then a young high potential CB to bring through that could be bought in.

What I really want to avoid is us spending £40m plus on a CB that doesn’t significantly upgrade us when we have other positions to improve.


If the club feels there isn't a established player available due to the reasons you've stated. I would personally hope United do what we did with Amad Diallo for the right sided forward role and target a young CB who is showing big potential that can be developed into a world class player potentially. 20 year old Loic Bade who's at RC Lens ticks all the boxes in that regard.
Agreed though don’t know enough about Bade other than what you can read on the internet.
 

Adnan

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The honest answer is I don’t think there is the perfect fit player around at the moment and I don’t see Kounde as even entering the serious discussion (I think it’s paper talk).

Ole wants fit players and so that places huge question marks over the one stand out candidate left in Konate.

Id honestly be happy enough to keep Maguire and Lindelof with Bailly and Tuanzebe and then a young high potential CB to bring through that could be bought in.

What I really want to avoid is us spending £40m plus on a CB that doesn’t significantly upgrade us when we have other positions to improve.



Agreed though don’t know enough about Bade other than what you can read on the internet.
I haven't seen a lot off him either (2 games) but he looks very talented at 20 and is extremely comfortable on the ball from the games i've watched. He could potentially be a good signing if we want to go the developmental talent route.
 
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Mainoldo

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He seems to be the typical square peg in a round hole signing that the club would pay silly money for. Once he's signed everyone from the club to the fans will pretend that he's good enough simply because dropping him would make the club look silly. Sevilla will probably laugh their way to the back just as Leicester did.

In my opinion we should focus on names but potential. Lets replace hopelessly injury prone players like Bailly, Tuanzebe and Jones with kids similar to what Fofana was at St Etienne and Gabriel was at Lille.
For the love of god please let us get a DoF. Only United will believe 70m on a French Lindelof will get us closer to a title. Whilst we veto a Haaland & Sancho deal. Go get Konsa from Villa.
 

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For the love of god please let us get a DoF. Only United will believe 70m on a French Lindelof will get us closer to a title. Whilst we veto a Haaland & Sancho deal. Go get Konsa from Villa.
Konsa is a really good CB criminally undervalued by many but the best partner for Maguire for a higher line?
 

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It's absolutely relevant, since we were a goal down after 3 minutes.

How was Kounde last night? I saw very little of the match, but conceding 3 goals in a knockout game isn't a good sign for a defence.
Wasn’t down to him. His partners in defence bottled it big time
 

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For the love of god please let us get a DoF. Only United will believe 70m on a French Lindelof will get us closer to a title. Whilst we veto a Haaland & Sancho deal. Go get Konsa from Villa.
Actually Lindelof is 6ft2 while Kounde is 5ft10. Mikael Silvestre struggled with crosses and he was 6ft. Kounde would be the shortest defender at United and he's actually shorter to the Neville brothers who are both 5ft11.
 

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In order to upgrade on lindelof we need to ensure we are addressing his failings, not just getting a fancier version of him. I would be nervous of throwing a cb into the PL who is actually smaller than Thiago silva and only 3 inches taller than Paul Parker! Inches make a difference or so my wife tells me.

if not Konate, I’d like us to be looking at Botman. I’m just not sure how quick he is but he sure does look like a proper cb in the Vidic mould
 

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Actually Lindelof is 6ft2 while Kounde is 5ft10. Mikael Silvestre struggled with crosses and he was 6ft. Kounde would be the shortest defender at United and he's actually shorter to the Neville brothers who are both 5ft11.
I’m sure it as been said multiple times already in here, but how can we complain on one hand that Lindelof isn’t dominant in the air enough, then think to replace him with someone 4 inches shorter than him? 4 inches is not insignificant, as my wife often reminds me.

I don’t care how great his leap is, or his passing, or his reading of the game, he’s too short to be a top level centre back. Yeah, yeah, Cannavaro, Ricardo Carvalho, Mascherano etc, they’re the exceptions that prove the rule.
 

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Alaba isn't gonna replace Ramos and he prefers playing in midfield.

Real Madrid will likely sign one of Kounde or Pau Torres IMO.
The same midfield already stacked with Casemiro, Kroos, Modric and Valverde with at least 3 set to start week in week out? And he`s been playing exclusively at CB the last 2 seasons
Reports in Spain are saying he`s going to play at CB we can bet here and now thats the position he`s going to play in like Bayern
Why do you think they`re after Alaba for free not Kounde/Torres? They`re forcing their players to take wage cuts whilst still paying for their stadium and having Mbappe as a priority. They`re not as rich as you think as of now so it`ll take some seriously huge monumental effort to splash 60-80m on a starting CB without selling one for good money(Varane)
 
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Adam-Utd

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Actually Lindelof is 6ft2 while Kounde is 5ft10. Mikael Silvestre struggled with crosses and he was 6ft. Kounde would be the shortest defender at United and he's actually shorter to the Neville brothers who are both 5ft11.
There's not a chance Lindelof is 6 ft 2 surely?!
 

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Actually Lindelof is 6ft2 while Kounde is 5ft10. Mikael Silvestre struggled with crosses and he was 6ft. Kounde would be the shortest defender at United and he's actually shorter to the Neville brothers who are both 5ft11.
Silvestre struggled in general because he was never that good, but I don't remember aerial balls being one of them. Positioning maybe, like losing his man. Evra was 5'8" and I thought he'd be poor in the air but he had a great leap and timing.
 

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Silvestre struggled in general because he was never that good, but I don't remember aerial balls being one of them. Positioning maybe, like losing his man. Evra was 5'8" and I thought he'd be poor in the air but he had a great leap and timing.
Yeah I remember silvestre being decent in the air, even scored a few

evra was amazing for his height, but he had plenty of practice. He was targeted after that shocking debut
 

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Kounde reportedly has a £78 million buy out clause. I doubt we have to pay all of to get him however, that could change if a club like PSG are interested.

I’m not really concerned about his height. Cannavaro was a fine defender and Bruce at 6’0 was commanding in the air. Kounde possesses a lot of athletic ability to overcome the height issue.
 

Adam-Utd

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I think it's because he always squashes his neck down like a turtle when he heads the ball it gives the impression he's a lot smaller. Thought he was 6 ft at best.
 

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I think it's because he always squashes his neck down like a turtle when he heads the ball it gives the impression he's a lot smaller. Thought he was 6 ft at best.
Me too - doesn’t play 6’2 that’s for sure
 

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For the love of god please let us get a DoF. Only United will believe 70m on a French Lindelof will get us closer to a title. Whilst we veto a Haaland & Sancho deal. Go get Konsa from Villa.
Konsa would not be a solution.