Julian Brandt

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Sancho and Haaland are understandably getting all the attention at Dortmund right now but what a signing Julian Brandt has been for them. Took to his new position like a duck to water.

 

Atze-Peng

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Everyone was saying him on the wing-positions will not properly work out. He needs to play in the centre - were Reus is pretty much the go-to player for now. Glad he is performing on the 8 now. Though I think earlier or later he will go back to the 10 with his skillset and Reus growing older
 

izec

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It was coming. He was far too talented to fail IMO. I knew United would never buy him, although i mentioned him a few times as a player to buy for 25m. It was always Dortmund, Bayern or Liverpool where he would go.
 

Zehner

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His attacking contribution was already world class in the second of the half last season for us but he makes too many costly and considering his talent unexplainable mistakes. That's the only thing weighing him down so far.

Very happy for him that he's made it at Dortmund. My favourite young German player.
 

Irrational.

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Yep, another cracking player we should've been in for.
 

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He’s been playing brilliantly. That said, it is hard to judge at times in that team/league. I watch them every week and they seem to be through on goal every three minutes.
 

Bebestation

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He’s been playing brilliantly. That said, it is hard to judge at times in that team/league. I watch them every week and they seem to be through on goal every three minutes.
Exactly, the goal numbers in that league is ridiculous - literally teams scoring 4,5 goals a game, no wonder players like Jovic can have break through seasons scoring goals like they are in some sort of prime.

The fullbacks in particular are completely lost in that league and players like Sancho have a free passage every 10 minutes.
 

Zehner

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Exactly, the goal numbers in that league is ridiculous - literally teams scoring 4,5 goals a game, no wonder players like Jovic can have break through seasons scoring goals like they are in some sort of prime.

The fullbacks in particular are completely lost in that league and players like Sancho have a free passage every 10 minutes.
Ah that narrative again.
 

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He's a lovely player to watch, liked him since his breakthrough at Leverkusen.
 

FootballHQ

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Exactly, the goal numbers in that league is ridiculous - literally teams scoring 4,5 goals a game, no wonder players like Jovic can have break through seasons scoring goals like they are in some sort of prime.

The fullbacks in particular are completely lost in that league and players like Sancho have a free passage every 10 minutes.
Even the relegation teams park their back 4s on the halfway line. Last week at 3-3 Ausburg were still trying to play offside 45 yards up which was ridiculous and as you say Sancho and Haaland just ran through that.
 

kaiser1

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Exactly, the goal numbers in that league is ridiculous - literally teams scoring 4,5 goals a game, no wonder players like Jovic can have break through seasons scoring goals like they are in some sort of prime.

The fullbacks in particular are completely lost in that league and players like Sancho have a free passage every 10 minutes.
Does it matter than Haaland Lewandowski and Jovic also posted big numbers when they play in Europe?

For example
Jovic scored 17 league goals in 32 Bundesliga games

But scored 10 in 14 Europa games playing Lazio Marseille Shaktar, Inter Benfica and Chelsea
 

Classical Mechanic

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Does it matter than Haaland Lewandowski and Jovic also posted big numbers when they play in Europe?

For example
Jovic scored 17 league goals in 32 Bundesliga games

But scored 10 in 14 Europa games playing Lazio Marseille Shaktar, Inter Benfica and Chelsea
How many has he bagged now he’s joined a top league?
 

do.ob

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It's just an ignorant statement. Dortmund play crazy attacking lineups with Hakimi, who is really winger and Guerreiro who is really an attack minded CM as wingbacks, Brandt who is really a no10 as part of a double pivot and three attackers in front of them. When they are inform they are unplayable for lesser teams, especially at home. Even when Favre was on the ropes they stuffed three past Inter, because the team clicked for 20 minutes.
Berlin actually tried to play defensive football and was rather effective in neutralizing their opponent. Sancho's goal was a lucky deflection, before that Dortmund only had one long shot. Haaland's first came from a corner. It was only then that Union broke, because - no shit sherlock - when you concede two goals momentum goes down the drain and you have to offer more space.
There really is no right way of approaching an inform Bayern or Dortmund team, because when you park the bus they are very comfortable with smothering amounts of possession and when you try to disrupt their build up, trying to exploit their attacking intent (which actually worked pretty well against Dortmund in the past) you leave space behind you and when those temas are in good shape they have no trouble using it to their advantage.

How many has he bagged now he’s joined a top league?
Oh please, there is nothing more stupid than judging entire leagues by the fates of single players, especially when you have a young player like Jovic who did well for a counter attacking side like Frankfurt, where he was a bit of a star, to a new league and a massive club where he has to play different football under a completely different level of pressure. There are like a dozen factors at play when someone switches clubs and a different league is just one of them.
Schulz was king of attacking stats for Nagelsmann at Hoffenheim, now he's sitting on the bench at Dortmund. Therefore by your amazing logic it can be concluded that Dortmund's league > Hoffenheim's league. Going by Haaland's stats Austrian Bundesliga > Champions league > German Bundesliga. Bravo.
 
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Rozay

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Even the relegation teams park their back 4s on the halfway line. Last week at 3-3 Ausburg were still trying to play offside 45 yards up which was ridiculous and as you say Sancho and Haaland just ran through that.
It’s a frequent observation. I’m not even trying to get into an argument with the German fans or out their league down but, the frequency of which they have about 3 players bearing down on goal is noteworthy.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Oh please, there is nothing more stupid than judging entire leagues by the fates of single players, especially when you have a young player like Jovic who did well for a counter attacking side like Frankfurt, where he was a bit of a star, to a new league and a massive club where he has to play different football under a completely different level of pressure. There are like a dozen factors at play when someone switches clubs and a different league is just one of them.
Schulz was king of attacking stats for Nagelsmann at Hoffenheim, now he's sitting on the bench at Dortmund. Therefore by your amazing logic it can be concluded that Dortmund's league > Hoffenheim's league. Going by Haaland's stats Austrian Bundesliga > Champions league > German Bundesliga. Bravo.
I was highlighting how daft their point was by attempting to judge the BL's relative quality by one players performance in the EL comparative to their BL performances.
 

do.ob

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I was highlighting how daft their point was by attempting to judge the BL's relative quality by one players performance in the EL comparative to their BL performances.
Responding to the claim that players only score highly, because of their national competition by pointing out that they produce similar numbers against international competition is not the same as trying to say league x is "that good/bad", because player y scored z amount of goals.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Responding to the claim that players only score highly, because of their national competition by pointing out that they produce similar numbers against international competition is not the same as trying to say league x is "that good/bad", because player y scored z amount of goals.
Yes it is. Its using one player as proof of a dynamic. Its exactly the same false logic.
 

ShinjiNinja26

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Quality player.

Our board is far too inept to make signings like these, class players ready to make next step up to a top club while still being relatively cheap to buy.

Sir Alex built his teams on signings like these, which makes it all the more painful these days. How times have changed. :(
 

do.ob

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Yes it is. Its using one player as proof of a dynamic. Its exactly the same false logic.
I mean when someone posts "no wonder players like Jovic can have break through seasons scoring goals like they are in some sort of prime." it seems pretty fair to bring up Jovic's record in the EL. Had he said "look Bundesliga is amazing, because Jovic scoring in the EL" without context it would be a different story.
 

Zehner

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Hazard proved himself in the top league in the past two seasons. His form must have some other origin other than quality.
Jovic too.

Apart from Liverpool and City, the PL teams aren't really impressing this season tbh. Dortmund and Leipzig would third and fourth IMO.
 

giorno

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Jovic's record last season was inflated by a 5 goals performance. He actually had a better record in EL than bundes

That said, here's the 5 best attacks in europe's top 5 leagues:

5. Leipzig(2.65 goals per game)
4. City(2.7)
3. Atalanta(2.71)

....drum roll...

I'll let you guess #2(2.8) and #1(2.9) :D
 

Atze-Peng

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Jovic's record last season was inflated by a 5 goals performance. He actually had a better record in EL than bundes

That said, here's the 5 best attacks in europe's top 5 leagues:

5. Leipzig(2.65 goals per game)
4. City(2.7)
3. Atalanta(2.71)

....drum roll...

I'll let you guess #2(2.8) and #1(2.9) :D
And this has nothing to do with how the league generally develops. 5 years ago the Bundesliga was a pure Pressing-League with Bayern becoming the champion while having a goalscore-rate of 2,35. But back then it surely was since the offenses in the Bundesliga were too weak, right? Has nothing to do with teams adapting to each other in football and as a result strategies shifting over the years within the hegemony of a national league.
 

MiracleInMadrid

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Jovic's record last season was inflated by a 5 goals performance. He actually had a better record in EL than bundes

That said, here's the 5 best attacks in europe's top 5 leagues:

5. Leipzig(2.65 goals per game)
4. City(2.7)
3. Atalanta(2.71)

....drum roll...

I'll let you guess #2(2.8) and #1(2.9) :D
Ajax has been banging them in this season. Ajax at #1 and maybe Bayern at #2? :confused:
 

hasanejaz88

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Ajax has been banging them in this season. Ajax at #1 and maybe Bayern at #2? :confused:
Ajax wouldn't be included in 'top 5', I think it's the usual top 4 plus France. Bayern and Dortmund I would guess.

Regarding Brandt, I have give a lot of credit to Bosz, someone I haven't liked in the last couple of years, for finally realizing Brandt potential by playing him as a central attacker.

Brandt was going on the same path as Draxler (and Schweinstiger before both of them) as a hugely talented central attacker being shoehorned into a left winger role because they could dribble well. Sadly for Draxler he never got to play as a central midfielder for a prolonged period at any club and has now become a decent player.

Brandt has all the making of a great central playmaker. He has the creativity and technical ability that you would need but is also not selfish and likes to get assists. On top of that his late runs into the box are also good.

That being said, if there is one thing he really needs to improve on its his decision making. He will have moments of brilliance but will then make a poor pass and cause problems for his team, and then you also have his lack of defensive ability, which can be a big problem when he is played in a double pivot. To say it shortly, he's a bit of a lesser Paul Pogba right now.

What does perplex me is how he struggled when he played as an CAM in a 4-2-3-1 Favre played early in the season. I thought that would be a great position for him because you wouldn't have to worry about his defensive problems there, but, maybe because he was new in the team, he didn't play well there at all.

But once he's moved a bit further back in a 2 man midfield, he's been amazing. That was the same position he was successful in at Leverkusen, though in a 4-2-3-1, but I thought it wouldn't make. A big difference to push him more forward.

Anyways, great to see him doing well and hope he develops into a top class player. Not sure how he'd fit for Germany though.
 

TheReligion

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It's just an ignorant statement. Dortmund play crazy attacking lineups with Hakimi, who is really winger and Guerreiro who is really an attack minded CM as wingbacks, Brandt who is really a no10 as part of a double pivot and three attackers in front of them. When they are inform they are unplayable for lesser teams, especially at home. Even when Favre was on the ropes they stuffed three past Inter, because the team clicked for 20 minutes.
Berlin actually tried to play defensive football and was rather effective in neutralizing their opponent. Sancho's goal was a lucky deflection, before that Dortmund only had one long shot. Haaland's first came from a corner. It was only then that Union broke, because - no shit sherlock - when you concede two goals momentum goes down the drain and you have to offer more space.
There really is no right way of approaching an inform Bayern or Dortmund team, because when you park the bus they are very comfortable with smothering amounts of possession and when you try to disrupt their build up, trying to exploit their attacking intent (which actually worked pretty well against Dortmund in the past) you leave space behind you and when those temas are in good shape they have no trouble using it to their advantage.



Oh please, there is nothing more stupid than judging entire leagues by the fates of single players, especially when you have a young player like Jovic who did well for a counter attacking side like Frankfurt, where he was a bit of a star, to a new league and a massive club where he has to play different football under a completely different level of pressure. There are like a dozen factors at play when someone switches clubs and a different league is just one of them.
Schulz was king of attacking stats for Nagelsmann at Hoffenheim, now he's sitting on the bench at Dortmund. Therefore by your amazing logic it can be concluded that Dortmund's league > Hoffenheim's league. Going by Haaland's stats Austrian Bundesliga > Champions league > German Bundesliga. Bravo.
One thing I would say is there's no way Dortmund would get away with such an attacking line up in the PL. Even the lower teams are quite proficient in counter attacking football and they'd get burned
 

do.ob

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One thing I would say is there's no way Dortmund would get away with such an attacking line up in the PL. Even the lower teams are quite proficient in counter attacking football and they'd get burned
Not to be offensive, but that's a bit of a throwaway comment. Are you actually in a position to judge how proficient lesser Bundesliga teams are in counter attacking? The league is still heavily affected by Klopp, pressing and quick transition are the foundation of a lot, if not most, teams. Paderborn, easily the worst squad in the league together with Union, went up 3-0 at half time in Dortmund with quick counter attacks. On the other hand such a broad statement is also questionable from a tactical point of view, because football isn't as simple as "well they are very attacking, the other team is counter attacking so they will score lots of goals". If a team has a functioning mix of dominance and "gegenpressing" they can get away with a lot.
City's previous seasons are the best proof of that.
 
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TheReligion

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Not to be offensive, but that's a bit of a throwaway comment. Are you actually in a position to judge how proficient lesser Bundesliga teams are in counter attacking? The league is still heavily affected by Klopp, pressing and quick transition are the foundation of a lot, if not most, teams. Paderborn, easily the worst squad in the league together with Union, went up 3-0 at half time in Dortmund with quick counter attacks. On the other hand such a broad statement is also questionable from a tactical point of view, because football isn't as simple as "well they are very attacking, the other team is counter attacking so they will score lots of goals". If a team has a functioning mix of dominance and "gegenpressing" they can get with a lot.
City's previous seasons are the best proof of that.
It's my opinion of course but I do feel the relative strength of the PL is superior hence it being easier to go gung ho in Germany without fear of repercussion.
 

do.ob

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It's my opinion of course but I do feel the relative strength of the PL is superior hence it being easier to go gung ho in Germany without fear of repercussion.
So you have the feeling that the relative strength of the PL is superior and therefore you conclude that teams in other leagues don't know how to counter attack? That Dortmund don't have to be afraid defensively?
Paderborn are bottom and scored 10 goals in 6 games against top 5 teams. Dortmund don't lead a care free life, they actually do get punished for their attacking approach when they aren't sharp, hence being midtable in terms of goals against or conceding three goals just three games ago. It's similar for Bayern (though they have a higher level of consistency), when they are sharp they cruise through most of their games, but when they aren't they drop 5 points in their following games after trashing Spurs 7:2.

Sure, on the whole odds are that the PL is "better" than any league but the Spanish, but to assume that teams don't know how to play football, how to defend or attack in other leagues is ignorance.
 

TheReligion

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So you have the feeling that the relative strength of the PL is superior and therefore you conclude that teams in other leagues don't know how to counter attack? That Dortmund don't have to be afraid defensively?
Paderborn are bottom and scored 10 goals in 6 games against top 5 teams. Dortmund don't lead a care free life, they actually do get punished for their attacking approach when they aren't sharp, hence being midtable in terms of goals against or conceding three goals just three games ago. It's similar for Bayern (though they have a higher level of consistency), when they are sharp they cruise through most of their games, but when they aren't they drop 5 points in their following games after trashing Spurs 7:2.

Sure, on the whole odds are that the PL is "better" than any league but the Spanish, but to assume that teams don't know how to play football, how to defend or attack in other leagues is ignorance.
You're getting very emotional for no real reason. I feel that PL teams are better at counter attacking yes. That doesn't mean German teams can't play football. Things don't have to be one extreme or another you know? Alot of football is about opinion and that's mine. Sorry you dislike it. If that makes me ignorant then I'm not particularly fussed.
 

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A lot of arrogance from our PL suppoerters in here. Besides Liverpool and City, Bayern, Dortmund and Leipzig would be the best teams in the PL at this moment in time, imo.
 

do.ob

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You're getting very emotional for no real reason. I feel that PL teams are better at counter attacking yes. That doesn't mean German teams can't play football. Things don't have to be one extreme or another you know? Alot of football is about opinion and that's mine. Sorry you dislike it. If that makes me ignorant then I'm not particularly fussed.
Your initial post was: "One thing I would say is there's no way Dortmund would get away with such an attacking line up in the PL. Even the lower teams are quite proficient in counter attacking football and they'd get burned"

That's not exactly saying: "based on careful consideration I would assume that PL bottom teams are a bit more proficient at counter attacking than those Bundesliga teams I actually know little about, so I think Dortmund would find it harder."
 

TheReligion

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Your initial post was: "One thing I would say is there's no way Dortmund would get away with such an attacking line up in the PL. Even the lower teams are quite proficient in counter attacking football and they'd get burned"

That's not exactly saying: "based on careful consideration I would assume that PL bottom teams are a bit more proficient at counter attacking than those Bundesliga teams I actually know little about, so I think Dortmund would find it harder."
A-
 

He'sRaldo

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A lot of arrogance from our PL suppoerters in here. Besides Liverpool and City, Bayern, Dortmund and Leipzig would be the best teams in the PL at this moment in time, imo.
IMO, if those German teams were playing in the PL, they would need a period of adjustment first, as some of the things which are important in the PL aren't as important in Germany.

The refereeing is different, tackles and physical challenges are different, 2nd balls are very important, it's not all about pressing, counter-pressing, and counter-attacks which have been a big focus in Germany in recent years.

Basically saying they are 2 different leagues, but it's valid to say some styles of certain teams or players probably won't translate 1:1 into success in the PL. Not without adjustments taking the type of league into account. A lot of foreign managers have talked about the adjustment needed to play and be successful in the PL, it's not a myth that the league has a different playing style.
 

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One thing I would say is there's no way Dortmund would get away with such an attacking line up in the PL. Even the lower teams are quite proficient in counter attacking football and they'd get burned
Saying @do.ob is overreacting (or getting "very emotional") while you simply voiced your opinion about the relative strengths of teams in the PL and the Bundesliga respectively does not really line up with your statement here in my opinion. You are clearly stating a strong point while admitting to not having the necessary knowledge to back it up. That can be a little frustrating, even if you did not mean for it to come across that way.

IMO, if those German teams were playing in the PL, they would need a period of adjustment first, as some of the things which are important in the PL aren't as important in Germany.

The refereeing is different, tackles and physical challenges are different, 2nd balls are very important, it's not all about pressing, counter-pressing, and counter-attacks which have been a big focus in Germany in recent years.

Basically saying they are 2 different leagues, but it's valid to say some styles of certain teams or players probably won't translate 1:1 into success in the PL. Not without adjustments taking the type of league into account. A lot of foreign managers have talked about the adjustment needed to play and be successful in the PL, it's not a myth that the league has a different playing style.
I think this can quite simple be broken down to "all of the big leagues in Europe differ in style of play to a certain extent". The teams in these leagues have adapted a style for themselves that they deem to be best suited at winning games against their respective oppositions. Any team would have to adapt if it were thrown into another league, be it a German team in the PL or an English team in the Bundesliga. I would generally assume, that any team would be able to adapt to a different league given the appropriate amount of time and international games demonstrate that clever coaches are able to do it quite quickly for individual games as well.
 

He'sRaldo

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I think this can quite simple be broken down to "all of the big leagues in Europe differ in style of play to a certain extent". The teams in these leagues have adapted a style for themselves that they deem to be best suited at winning games against their respective oppositions. Any team would have to adapt if it were thrown into another league. I would generally assume, that any team would be able to adapt to a different league given the appropriate amount of time and international games demonstrate that clever coaches are able to do it quite quickly for singular games as well.
All true, which is why it'd fair to say current iterations of certain teams or players won't show the same level in the PL that they are showing in other leagues. They'd have to adapt, and of course, having that caveat makes them less of a sure thing.

Remember, not everyone adapts to a new league, so it's not safe to assume as much.