Julian Brandt

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Your initial post was: "One thing I would say is there's no way Dortmund would get away with such an attacking line up in the PL. Even the lower teams are quite proficient in counter attacking football and they'd get burned"

That's not exactly saying: "based on careful consideration I would assume that PL bottom teams are a bit more proficient at counter attacking than those Bundesliga teams I actually know little about, so I think Dortmund would find it harder."
Well it pretty much is...
 

Swarm

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All true, which is why it'd fair to say current iterations of certain teams or players won't show the same level in the PL that they are showing in other leagues. They'd have to adapt, and of course, having that caveat makes them less of a sure thing.
While that may be a fair statement (it is still assuming a lack of adaptability by team and coaching staff) I still don't really know what point that would make. It neither helps with the perception of quality of a team nor of a player nor of a league for that matter. That being said it is not really suitable to win or lose the pissing contest between clubs or leagues that are ever so popular on this forum (I am not accusing you here, your posts were entirely fine).

While we are at it this is a good point to talk about player adaptation though since people enjoy throwing around player performance stats from different teams and leagues to compare this or that. I think it is important to realize that the conditions between clubs can be vastly different. Be it style of play, playing system, coaches expectations, coaching style, teammates, standing within the team, standing within the club, climate, living conditions, health, etc., etc. There are so many factors that can impact the performance of a footballer that I feel one failed stint at a certain club should not entirely be the basis for evaluation of that player, especially if that player has thrived at a different club before. It may show him to be less flexible than others, but with a good coach and the right circumstances he may be able to shine again.
 

Handré1990

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IMO, if those German teams were playing in the PL, they would need a period of adjustment first, as some of the things which are important in the PL aren't as important in Germany.

The refereeing is different, tackles and physical challenges are different, 2nd balls are very important, it's not all about pressing, counter-pressing, and counter-attacks which have been a big focus in Germany in recent years.

Basically saying they are 2 different leagues, but it's valid to say some styles of certain teams or players probably won't translate 1:1 into success in the PL. Not without adjustments taking the type of league into account. A lot of foreign managers have talked about the adjustment needed to play and be successful in the PL, it's not a myth that the league has a different playing style.
Well, yeah, that goes without saying. It’s all hypothetical as no German teams will ever enter the PL or vice versa. However, I do think a lot of what you wrote here is really complicating things a little too much, football is a pretty simple game, after all. Score more goals than your opponents, concede less, all the rest is just ways to try to make that happen.

The last few years I’ve started watching the Bundesliga quite a bit, and imo it’s not much between the PL or the Bundesliga. Bundesliga being more entertaining because most teams try to attack and have their own base game. If anything a lot of bad teams in the PL over the years are so boring to watch it’s really crazy. A lot of it, I suspect, comes from the incessant money carousel where teams are so desperate to stay up they really don’t care about creating, entertaining fans, or developing the beautiful game. It’s a lot easier to defend, and sabotage the opposition’s game as opposed to being creative and scoring lots of goals.
 

He'sRaldo

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While that may be a fair statement (it is still assuming a lack of adaptability by team and coaching staff) I still don't really know what point that would make. It neither helps with the perception of quality of a team nor of a player nor of a league for that matter. That being said it is not really suitable to win or lose the pissing contest between clubs or leagues that are ever so popular on this forum (I am not accusing you here, your posts were entirely fine).
The point I'm making is that with people bemoaning not signing this or that player, or pointing to goal tallies or certain stats in another league, we have to ask whether it is replicable in the PL, since Man Utd play in the PL. Dortmund players, in particular, haven't been performing as well elsewhere, so it's smart to point that out. And it leads smoothly to your other point, which is a very good one.

While we are at it this is a good point to talk about player adaptation though since people enjoy throwing around player performance stats from different teams and leagues to compare this or that. I think it is important to realize that the conditions between clubs can be vastly different. Be it style of play, playing system, coaches expectations, coaching style, teammates, standing within the team, standing within the club, climate, living conditions, health, etc., etc. There are so many factors that can impact the performance of a footballer that I feel one failed stint at a certain club should not entirely be the basis for evaluation of that player, especially if that player has thrived at a different club before. It may show him to be less flexible than others, but with a good coach and the right circumstances he may be able to shine again.
This is a very good aside, and another big reason for my skepticism. Dortmund, in particular, have been a well-run club in recent years, and this translates to the performances of their players on the pitch. That's why I'm skeptical of those same performances carried over 1:1 in Man Utd, as we haven't been well-run at all, and thus there's no guarantee that players will survive that environment.

Like I said, quite a few of the players Dortmund have sold recently didn't perform as well in their new clubs. That is a testament to Dortmund's good structure, but also a warning that what you see in that team may not be exactly what you will get. We purchased a few of their players recently, so we've experienced it ourselves.
 

Swarm

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The point I'm making is that with people bemoaning not signing this or that player, or pointing to goal tallies or certain stats in another league, we have to ask whether it is replicable in the PL, since Man Utd play in the PL. Dortmund players, in particular, haven't been performing as well elsewhere, so it's smart to point that out. And it leads smoothly to your other point, which is a very good one.

This is a very good aside, and another big reason for my skepticism. Dortmund, in particular, have been a well-run club in recent years, and this translates to the performances of their players on the pitch. That's why I'm skeptical of those same performances carried over 1:1 in Man Utd, as we haven't been well-run at all, and thus there's no guarantee that players will survive that environment.

Like I said, quite a few of the players Dortmund have sold recently didn't perform as well in their new clubs. That is a testament to Dortmund's good structure, but also a warning that what you see in that team may not be exactly what you will get. We purchased a few of their players recently, so we've experienced it ourselves.
It seems we are pretty much on the same page. I guess the question should then not be whether players are able to replicate their performances elsewhere but whether the staff of the potentially buying club can get them there. I don't think it is necessarily a warning sign that some Dortmund players have not been performing as well in other clubs in the past but rather that these clubs were apparently unable to get the best performances out of these players (as mentioned there are always parameters outside of a clubs influence of course).
If in the specific case of United people are unsure players from Dortmund or Germany can replicate their performances there I would assume it is more down to shortcomings of the coaching staff or squad planning than the league being too different for them. In my opinion the quality of a player determines the likelihood of him thriving at a new club IF said club has built a squad in which he can shine and has a coach that knows how to use him. If one of the two is not the case there is a problem and the player may not be able to play to his abilities.
 

do.ob

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Like I said, quite a few of the players Dortmund have sold recently didn't perform as well in their new clubs. That is a testament to Dortmund's good structure, but also a warning that what you see in that team may not be exactly what you will get. We purchased a few of their players recently, so we've experienced it ourselves.
I mean you always have to apply a bit of common sense when buying players.
Mkhitaryan didn't work out all the well under Klopp, was known to be quite sensible and prone to self doubt and didn't really perform in big matches. It wasn't exactly the biggest surprise in the world that he wouldn't work out for Mourinho.
Kagawa was basically bought, because of half a year of good form at the center of Klopp's/Dortmund's attacking "swarm", again not the biggest surprise in the world he didn't look as stellar when he was put into United's more individualistic attack or shifted out wide by Moyes.
I wouldn't even say it's about particular clubs or leagues, it's just players profiting from being used in an optimal context. You see the same with Guardiola's teams. E.g. Delph looking like a valid left back, Iheanacho, perhaps even Sterling to a (much lesser) degree, who recorded just one assist against Panama at the World Cup, despite having a stellar G+A record for City in both seasons surrounding that tournament.

That's why you have DoFs and scouts, to discern the individual qualities from the context..
 

Nou_Camp99

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Got to love Dortmund tbh. I think they are everyone's favourite second team. Brilliantly ran club, play fast exciting football and great fan base / tradition.

Hope they win the league.
 

NieThePiet

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Dick move by Haaland
Think Brandt was very happy with that. He is born in Bremen, is a fan of this club, his brother is playing there in the youth, so he doesn't want to score against his club ;)
 

Atze-Peng

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Dick move by Haaland
In this situation you just hammer that ball in and take it. That's it. No fancy "I let you your goal". Just get the shit in for the 0,0001% Chance something doesnt work out.
 

Lash

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In this situation you just hammer that ball in and take it. That's it. No fancy "I let you your goal". Just get the shit in for the 0,0001% Chance something doesnt work out.
There was no covering defender and it was going in anyway. Robbed a goal there IMO.
 

izec

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His creativity is ridiculous. He will turn into a monster if he keeps injury free. Such a strong sight when you see someone with huge potential on the road to fulfilling it.
 

Atze-Peng

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There was no covering defender and it was going in anyway. Robbed a goal there IMO.
Because you always know how everything perfectly works in every single situation to 100% of the time and have perfect 360° spatial vision. Did you ever play football competitively yourself? You just fecking hammer this ball in. No questions asked. Even if the chance that your assessment of the situation is so minimal, it is almost neglectable. Even then you just go for it.
 

thepolice123

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What exactly is his best position? Saw him play as the false #9 a few times and he was pretty crap.
 

Damien

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Going to be out for a bit.
 

izec

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When he has a good day, he is outrageous. There is nothing he can't do. The technical class, passing as well as gliding with the ball, is just great to watch
 

SilentWitness

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He has a really annoying face (Can't explain it) but he's a fabulous player. I'd be surprised if he stays there for more than 2 seasons.
 

AltiUn

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Reminds me of Ozil when he was at Madrid, I quite like him.
 

NoPace

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If we don't get Sancho I do think there's space for a 10 like Brandt or Grealish to be our Isco type player. Basically we'd play 2 of Rashford, Greenwood and Martial as forwards then a diamond with Pogba and Bruno either side and a #10 like the above and either Fred or McTominay holding.

Then we could use that lineup when we need possession, otherwise a RW plays and the #10 is our main midfielder/winger off the bench to come on and change things or they fight for a starting spot with Fred/McTominay when Bruno or Pogba aren't playing.

Our forwards being great with the ball at their feet and otherwise below average might mean we're better off with another passer who can link play then a proper RW, as we saw James struggle when playing out there to find targets in the box apart from Ighalo, since our forwards are all whatever is the opposite of poachers.
 

FootballHQ

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Beautiful player to watch. Was a steal at what Dortmund paid for him aswell.
 

hasanejaz88

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Love to see him finally excelling in a central role. He was forced into a left wing role for too long in his career that he was beginning to stagnant.

Credit to Bosz for finally playing him there. It's insane to think it took so long for a manager to play him there given he was known as a talented central midfielder during his youth at Wolfsburg.
 

do.ob

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Love to see him finally excelling in a central role. He was forced into a left wing role for too long in his career that he was beginning to stagnant.

Credit to Bosz for finally playing him there. It's insane to think it took so long for a manager to play him there given he was known as a talented central midfielder during his youth at Wolfsburg.
It's not that simple. They usually had fairly capable C(A)Ms: Castro, Kampl Aranguiz, Havertz. And who knows whether Brandt would have had the necessary consistency and patience back then,even today that's sometimes still lacking.
 

hasanejaz88

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It's not that simple. They usually had fairly capable C(A)Ms: Castro, Kampl Aranguiz, Havertz. And who knows whether Brandt would have had the necessary consistency and patience back then,even today that's sometimes still lacking.
He was already considered a generational talent when they signed him, I remember they beat Bayern to his signature, so I thought they would try to play him in his favoured position more.

He was signed in 2014 and I think Hakan came in at the same time. Hakan though was preferred at AM for most of his time at Leverkusen despite never going beyond the average level.

Castro, Bender etc were playing deeper to the position Brandt I thought would play.
 

do.ob

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He was already considered a generational talent when they signed him, I remember they beat Bayern to his signature, so I thought they would try to play him in his favoured position more.

He was signed in 2014 and I think Hakan came in at the same time. Hakan though was preferred at AM for most of his time at Leverkusen despite never going beyond the average level.

Castro, Bender etc were playing deeper to the position Brandt I thought would play.
Starting out on the wing when they are young and raw, then moving to the centre as they mature is a common trajectory for attacking players, I can come up with Messi, Kroos, Schweinsteiger, Özil, Reus, di Maria, Götze - some of them all time greats - without even really thinking about it. Brandt being good at CM at age 23, after hundreds of senior games doesn't mean his teenage self would be been consistent enough. Infact even now he wasn't quite a few times this season.
And late stage Castro definitely played a role somewhat similar to Brandts current.
 

charlenefan

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When he has a good day, he is outrageous. There is nothing he can't do. The technical class, passing as well as gliding with the ball, is just great to watch
Glad you said that because honestly every time I've seen him (and it's not a lot) he's been shite. Must be missing the good games...
 

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Some signs of how good he can be, yes, but I actually thought he was pretty scrappy today, along with most of the players on the pitch. Misplaced a lot of passes, particularly in the first half, and ran into trouble quite a lot. Lovely touch to Hazard before Haaland's goal, though.
 

Sayros

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Reminds me of the time Nani robbed Ronaldo of a goal against Spain.
Aw man, that was even worse because he took a legit world-class goal that would be played on any career highlights of CR7 and turned it into an offside.
 

Lyricist

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He really has become a player who, when he clicks, just absolutely oozes class. He's already been great for Dortmund this season since he settled, and he's improved his consistency a lot over the past 2 seasons.
I feel like if he can hold up this level of performances in the big games, he will be viewed as a world class player soon enough in his career.

This is still from his pre-Dortmund days mostly, but you can quickly see what type of player he is:
 

do.ob

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I think in terms of talent he basically has it all, fairly 2-footed, passing, creativity, shooting, dribbling. His problem at this point is concentration or consistency, as well as defensive awareness at times.

The match vs Schalke is him in a nutshell basically:


Especially at the beginning there are two or three situations that normally would make the crowd sigh, but then he does that perfect little flick to play Hazard through for the 1-0 and keeps going from there. Against Schalke it wasn't really an issue, because they were so much worse, but in a tight match, where you may only rarely manage to play through the pressing line and attack with a bit of tempo these inconsistencies can hurt his team quite a bit.

These stats from the match also sound like classic Brandt:
 
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hasanejaz88

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I think in terms of talent he basically has it all, fairly 2-footed, passing, creativity, shooting, dribbling. His problem at this point is concentration or consistency, as well as defensive awareness at times.

The match vs Schalke is him in a nutshell basically:


Especially at the beginning there are two or three situations that normally would make the crowd sigh, but then he does that perfect little flick to play Hazard through for the 1-0 and keeps going from there. Against Schalke it wasn't really an issue, because they were so much worse, but in a tight match, where you may only rarely manage to play through the pressing line and attack with a bit of tempo these inconsistencies can hurt his team quite a bit.

These stats from the match also sound like classic Brandt:
I concur with that.

After the match I heard lots of praises of Brandt but thought the same that was quite inconsistent during it, a lot of misplaced passes but then some moments of quality that ultimately helped Dortmund to their win. EDIT: Can't get tired of watching that overhead scorpion pass though :drool:

Overall, his performances at Dortmund have been encourgaing but not the level that would make me really hopeful of him becoming world class and a hope for the German national team. He fits well into a team that wants to play quick passing football where misplaced passes are common and the goal is to try and be as incisive as possible. That would not work for a slower, more patient team like say Barcelona.

Would you trust Brandt to be part of the center midfield for Germany? I wouldn't put him ahead of people like Kimmich, Kroos and Gundogan right now. They provide plenty of quality on the ball but more importantly are more secure with it. For Dortmund, with the 3-2-2-3 they play with Brandt-Witsel as their midfielders, they really need to rely on heavy pressing and energetic full backs to stop them from being exposed defensively. Don't know if the same can be translated to Germany.

Germany did float with the 3-5-2 recently with Gnabry and Sane upfront but with varying success (brilliant 3-2 win at Holland but then the 4-2 loss at home). Then I think we settled with 4-2-3-1 and had some impressive performances late on.
 
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Le Red

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I think in terms of talent he basically has it all, fairly 2-footed, passing, creativity, shooting, dribbling. His problem at this point is concentration or consistency, as well as defensive awareness at times.

The match vs Schalke is him in a nutshell basically:


Especially at the beginning there are two or three situations that normally would make the crowd sigh, but then he does that perfect little flick to play Hazard through for the 1-0 and keeps going from there. Against Schalke it wasn't really an issue, because they were so much worse, but in a tight match, where you may only rarely manage to play through the pressing line and attack with a bit of tempo these inconsistencies can hurt his team quite a bit.

These stats from the match also sound like classic Brandt:
Just another meaningless stat. According to it, Bruno Fernandes is a shit passer.
 

do.ob

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I concur with that.

After the match I heard lots of praises of Brandt but thought the same that was quite inconsistent during it, a lot of misplaced passes but then some moments of quality that ultimately helped Dortmund to their win. EDIT: Can't get tired of watching that overhead scorpion pass though :drool:

Overall, his performances at Dortmund have been encourgaing but not the level that would make me really hopeful of him becoming world class and a hope for the German national team. He fits well into a team that wants to play quick passing football where misplaced passes are common and the goal is to try and be as incisive as possible. That would not work for a slower, more patient team like say Barcelona.

Would you trust Brandt to be part of the center midfield for Germany? I wouldn't put him ahead of people like Kimmich, Kroos and Gundogan right now. They provide plenty of quality on the ball but more importantly are more secure with it. For Dortmund, with the 3-2-2-3 they play with Brandt-Witsel as their midfielders, they really need to rely on heavy pressing and energetic full backs to stop them from being exposed defensively. Don't know if the same can be translated to Germany.

Germany did float with the 3-5-2 recently with Gnabry and Sane upfront but with varying success (brilliant 3-2 win at Holland but then the 4-2 loss at home). Then I think we settled with 4-2-3-1 and had some impressive performances late on.
I don't think he's missing that much, it's not like he is "dumb" in a footballing sense or that an inherent selfishness is the problem, he just needs a better understanding when it's right to go for riskier one-touch options and when it's better to take a second (he got the ability for both). He's "already" in his mid twenties, but he hasn't really played centrally for that long, so I think there is a good chance that he will make that step, the question is more how long it's going to take.

Regarding DIE MANNSCHAFT I find impossible to make predictions. Löw has always been fairly flexible in his style and since the WC he's been even less committing to one approach. He could easily be gone after the EUROs anyway.

There is an abundance of good players in the German CM: Kimmich, Kroos, Gündogan, Havertz, Goretzka, Brandt and perhaps Can again. All of them have their pros and cons and the correct combination depends on what the coach is trying to achieve. Among them Brandt would be my pick if I was looking for someone to link midfield and attack with dynamic movement and dribblings, he's basically urgency personified, which at the very least can be valuable against passive teams. We could also see Kimmich move back to RB or Havertz playing upfront, if he keeps doing well there for Leverkusen.

Just another meaningless stat. According to it, Bruno Fernandes is a shit passer.
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