Julian Nagelsmann | Joining Bayern

SAFMUTD

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You seem to completely ignore the fact that it's the players that demand them and that you are not getting the players in question without the release clauses. To make it clear, you either accept the clause or the player goes somewhere else.
I get that may be the case when the player has many options. But I dont think thats the case for most players, I think most of bundesliga talent is actually produced by the clubs themselves? I find hard to imagine a youngster from the academy demanding a release clause or telling the club to feck off.

I can understand that when a player is seeking for a club as a stepping stone such as Haaland, but then again I dont think the majority of the players can give themselves that luxury.
 

JPRouve

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I get that may be the case when the player has many options. But I dont think thats the case for most players, I think most of bundesliga talent is actually produced by the clubs themselves? I find hard to imagine a youngster from the academy demanding a release clause or telling the club to feck off.

I can understand that when a player is seeking for a club as a stepping stone such as Haaland, but then again I dont think the majority of the players can give themselves that luxury.
Which is why most players don't have a release clause. We literally told you that it's not the norm but for some reason you insist on building an argument around a falsehood. We keep telling you that these players had leverage and used it.
 

SAFMUTD

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We're talking about a player that moved from Standard Liège to Gladbach in 2009. No, 8m € is not a small fee in that context (and Gladbach sure did pay much less for him).
Are you ever going to try to give a thought to the replies you get?
They paid 5M for him, surely stating a release clause for just 3M above the paying price can not be seen as a good move am I right?
 

SAFMUTD

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Maybe because Dortmund would prefer to have Haaland instead of not having him?
Sure when it comes to a case about a superstar like Haaland sure. Its the only way they can compete, but how many Haalands are out there?
 

Boavista

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Well 8M is a small fee now and was a small fee back then, in any top league. I know the PL moves way more money than the BL but let's not pretend 8M is anything remotely close to a decent fee.
I don't think you're aware how small transfer spending used to be in leagues other than the PL. The same year Dante moved to Bayern, Reus moved to Dortmund for 17m which was considered fair at the time. Dortmund bought Gundogan for 5m, and Perisic for 4m the year before that. Lewandowski in the same ballpark the year before that.
 

JPRouve

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They paid 5M for him, surely stating a release clause for just 3M above the paying price can not be seen as a good move am I right?
You are talking about a club that had just been promoted, the good move was to get the player.
 

SAFMUTD

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Which is why most players don't have a release clause. We literally told you that it's not the norm but for some reason you insist on building an argument around a falsehood. We keep telling you that these players had leverage and used it.
Thats why I mentioned academy players, do they really give clauses for them? maybe in their second contract. I now get the point about being the players forcing the clubs to accept the clause, which is understandable since most clubs in germany are basically medium/small clubs with little to no leverage so they keep getting their hand twisted.

Anyway the argument was made because I wrongly though in germany they all had low clauses, which in fact is that the ones who have clauses indeed have low ones because they forced their club to accept that.
 

Acrobat7

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Naglesman and bayern will be a good fit I think but so bad for German football. Bayern are too much of a vacuum for all talent in Germany
Thank you for this hot take. It was needed to continue the excellent quality in this thread.
 

JPRouve

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Thats why I mentioned academy players, do they really give clauses for them? maybe in their second contract. I now get the point about being the players forcing the clubs to accept the clause, which is understandable since most clubs in germany are basically medium/small clubs with little to no leverage so they keep getting their hand twisted.

Anyway the argument was made because I wrongly though in germany they all had low clauses, which in fact is that the ones who have clauses indeed have low ones because they forced their club to accept that.
We already told you that BL players generally don't have clauses, we already answered your question.
 

SAFMUTD

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I don't think you're aware how small transfer spending used to be in leagues other than the PL. The same year Dante moved to Bayern, Reus moved to Dortmund for 17m which was considered fair at the time. Dortmund bought Gundogan for 5m, and Perisic for 4m the year before that. Lewandowski in the same ballpark the year before that.
There have always been bargains, still until today. How much was Alphonso Davies? 10M? but thats not what we are discussing, what we are discussing is that they gave him a low release clause. I dont think Gundogan, Perisic or Lewandowski were given a 3M above their cost price clause.
 

Boavista

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There have always been bargains, still until today. How much was Alphonso Davies? 10M? but thats not what we are discussing, what we are discussing is that they gave him a low release clause. I dont think Gundogan, Perisic or Lewandowski were given a 3M above their cost price clause.
Of course they were bargains in hindsight, but my point was that those were their most expensive signings that summer.
 

stefan92

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Wasnt he a flop? maybe flop is a strong word but I dont remember him being a success. But then again I dont follow Bayern as closely as you surely do so feel free to correct me if Im wrong.
Dante was part of Heynckes first team in their triple season 12/13 - that is the opposite of a flop
 

kaiser1

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Will Leipzig rather have Upamecano leave last year for free or agree to a 40M release clause? Will Dortmund rather have the services of Haaland for 2-yrs and have a realistic release clause or just use an inferior striker?
I think most people know the answer
 

Cheimoon

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Will Leipzig rather have Upamecano leave last year for free or agree to a 40M release clause? Will Dortmund rather have the services of Haaland for 2-yrs and have a realistic release clause or just use an inferior striker?
I think most people know the answer
I don't think anyone is arguing against that (anymore); it's now more about whether Leipzig could have negotiated a larger clause, or at least a larger clause for a transfer inside the Bundesliga, or just to Bayern, to this avoid strengthening their competitors.
 

kaiser1

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I don't think anyone is arguing against that (anymore); it's now more about whether Leipzig could have negotiated a larger clause, or at least a larger clause for a transfer inside the Bundesliga, or just to Bayern, to this avoid strengthening their competitors.
Leipzig was in a bad spot with Werner and Upa, their contract was ending and was free to leave for nothing, The players kind of did Leipzig a favour so they made some money.
How much negotiating power will they have over a player they could have lost for free or why will the player agree to that type of clause. Moreover, a bigger clause will simply mean the buying club wait it out and hinder a players progression

If a conversation goes
"Upa we will extend you for 2yrs for a release clause of 100M or say 100M to Bayern and 40M to anyone else" Why will he agree to that?
Basically nullifying one of the top teams in Europe. Tell a Sevilla either move abroad for 50M or to Madrid for 100M
Why will any player agree to that?
Clubs have a right to hate Bayern, Most players have no reason to. They are one of the best clubs they can hope to play for in their career
 

nuanced

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But now you're arguing in hindsight about who United bought, and the prices paid, which I think is a very different question than who they have access to or rather who they could be buying. Are players in England more expensive? Yeah, but you're comparing players that were bought to hopefully improve the first eleven at some point, with players that Bayern brought in as squad options like Rode or Rudy.. In many transfer dealings Bayern has had the good fortune that in most positions they already have exceptional players, so players they sign don't always have to replace the established player (immediately). For the most part United haven't really had that many completely undisputed players in a lot of positions for a long time. Hence you see fewer signings that are obviously squad options from the start.

The fact that many of United's signings fail to deliver doesn't mean that mediocre players cost a fortune necessarily, it just means that the players they have bought turned out mediocre for whatever reason. None of the players you listed there were brought in under the expectation that they weren't good players, or even as squad options. Someone like Daniel James, or Telles fit that description better. Bayern are penny pinchers a lot of the time, so a lot of players they would probably like to have are immediately out of the question, even players like Dest for instance. That being said, nothing is stopping United from buying the players Bayern bought cheaply. They won't magically be twice as expensive. Bayern buys the players they do, because those are the ones affordable to them, in the same way that Juventus for instance frequently target free agent players. Some players may end up preferring Bayern, but you rarely read about United being interested in the same players as them.

From the list of players you had mentioned earlier, there isn't many players I see that wouldn't have been possible for United. I do see players that United would never be interested in in the first place, but that's a different matter.
I don't think United has the same level of chances of signing these players as Bayern due to multiple reasons:
1. Players preferring to move within the league.
2. German players considering BM more prestigious
3. BM having strong contact with the players agents and generally getting first dibs on the players
4. United scouting, understandably, not being as thorough in Germany than Bayern's.

I just wanted to point out that United have to spend multiples more than Bayern, which I agree have mostly been top signing. It's true that United haven't generally bought squad players since SAF left. United is perennially stuck in the cycle of buying a shiny new player, watch them turn into squaddies, then deadwood, and finally try to replace their previously top signings with more top signings.

Maybe United aren't the best example because of their boards incompetence, but even Pool have spent big money (compared to BM) for most of their players. Even having a German coach (and presumably a strong German scouting network with him), Pool don't generally compete with Bayern for these sort of players.


Where did I say they failed a lot of international transfers? I don't think that's really the case. They've had their share of duds, but overall I think they've done pretty well with international transfers. Even with the ones that didn't succeed, Bayern have had such continuity in their team that compensated for players that didn't perform. That's down to having fantastic coaches in that time frame, but also the unexpected longevity of some players. Players brought in to replace Ribery and Robben for instance failed to do so, but it didn't matter because they just kept going at such a high level.
In the past few years, Bayern have found themselves in the second place about the turn of the year, and yet they've won the league every time. Both Ribery and Robben were making decent impact right until they left. I put that down to the sheer gulf in quality between them and the rest of the league, moreso than their world class coaches and the stability of the club.

As for poor transfers leading to missing the CL in the PL.. not sure I agree, if you already have a good team to begin with. The inverse of that would be, that a team relies on good transfers to make top 4, which wouldn't really be as necessary if that club already had a very good team? And that's generally been the case for Bayern.
Look at how Chelsea, City and Pool have fared after winning the league recently, and the trend has been that a club needs to bring in new blood while replacing the poorer performers to have the motivation to be ahead of the chasing pack. So being able to refresh the squad and keep the performance levels higher than the rivals is definitely a big challenge in the PL, so a couple of wrong transfers in the summer and the club is quickly out of contention of any rewards within a few months.

I can't see a single season in which Bayern wouldn't have made the CL in the Premier League in the past decade.
Totally agree with that. Let's also note that 4-6 players are competing for any top PL transfer (within PL or without), but that's hardly the case for Bayern. While saying that, I'll also acknowledge that there are other factors like Bayern's financial success and excellent management which are also key contributors to them building a stronger squad..
 

Suedesi

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This thread is a riot. We have uncovered a conspiracy involving all German clubs to help Bayern Munchen like domestiques in Tour de France.

If only the rich German business people running their clubs could hire some smart Football Directors (of which the CAF has plenty), they could in turn negotiate some really high release clauses for their players which would end this farce right away ;)
 

nuanced

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No he wasn't. Never at any point was he a 40 goal striker. A gimp is what he was. The way he scored goals is by standing in the box with Müller, Ribery and Robben literally bouncing the ball off him into the goal. A wooden post would have been a "40 goal striker" by your logic. The amount of chances he stumbled over the byline is staggering. Lethal? Have you met Makaay? Gomez is a clown who couldn't believe his luck, a good season or two at Stuttgart and a lack of alternatives later and he finds himself in a CL contender. Lucky bastard. :)
You mean the team which didn't even qualify for the group stage in 08. Or the one which was smacked 4-0 away by an emerging coach in the semis in 09. Or the one which scraped past mighty Fiorentina on away goals or lucked out with an atrocious red card against United, and was finally put to bed by Moronho. Or the one which the worst Chelsea side pre-Lampard in the last decade, beat in the final in their home stadium :lol:
bite bite
 

He'sRaldo

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This thread is a riot. We have uncovered a conspiracy involving all German clubs to feed Bayern Munchen. If only the rich German business people running their clubs could hire some smart Football Directors (of which the CAF has plenty), they could in turn negotiate some really high release clauses for their players ;)
At the end of the day, it will benefit the whole Bundesliga to have healthier competition for Bayern and regardless of the reasons why, it's clear that the current model is not providing that. No matter how much fans of the Bundesliga defend the league, it unfortunately won't be attractive for outside viewers without these concerns being addressed. It will just be a case of dissenters saying "well enjoy Bayern Munich winning the next 20 titles" and leaving it at that.

And while a lot of Bundesliga fans won't care, it is a shame at least in my opinion because I've always liked the league, but without being a fan of any team it's harder to pay close attention to it these days.
 

Cheimoon

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At the end of the day, it will benefit the whole Bundesliga to have healthier competition for Bayern and regardless of the reasons why, it's clear that the current model is not providing that. No matter how much fans of the Bundesliga defend the league, it unfortunately won't be attractive for outside viewers without these concerns being addressed. It will just be a case of dissenters saying "well enjoy Bayern Munich winning the next 20 titles" and leaving it at that.

And while a lot of Bundesliga fans won't care, it is a shame at least in my opinion because I've always liked the league, but without being a fan of any team it's harder to pay close attention to it these days.
This is rather typical of how people talk about Bundesliga posters on here, and nonsense on two important fronts. First, they also care that the league is not competitive for the top spot. Even most Bayern supporters that I've seen posting here would welcome more competition. (Although probably not to the point that Bayern starts winning less. ;) ) And they don't defend the league and everything that comes with it, but they defend Bundesliga teams against accusations that they don't care to be competitive or are even happy to help Bayern.

Both of those points are patent nonsense. Posters do care about Bayern's dominance, but don't they care for the simplistic and often downright wrong comments people are offering (often because these people don't bother to inform themselves, and project EPL dynamics onto to Bundesliga), and react to those. If those criticizing the Bundesliga or its teams would come with proper arguments and suggestions, the discussion would be very different - as can be seen in the last few pages of this thread and of the German football thread.
 

He'sRaldo

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This is rather typical of how people talk about Bundesliga posters on here, and nonsense on two important fronts. First, they also care that the league is not competitive for the top spot. Even most Bayern supporters that I've seen posting here would welcome more competition. (Although probably not to the point that Bayern starts winning less. ;) ) And they don't defend the league and everything that comes with it, but they defend Bundesliga teams against accusations that they don't care to be competitive or are even happy to help Bayern.

Both of those points are patent nonsense. Posters do care about Bayern's dominance, but don't they care for the simplistic and often downright wrong comments people are offering (often because these people don't bother to inform themselves, and project EPL dynamics onto to Bundesliga), and react to those. If those criticizing the Bundesliga or its teams would come with proper arguments and suggestions, the discussion would be very different - as can be seen in the last few pages of this thread and of the German football thread.
I read that thread, it was a good discussion.

But in any case, I was speaking more to the tone of the post than anything. As a casual Bundesliga follower I don't disagree that the accusations are a bit far-fetched, but the reality is dissenters don't care the reasons why; they just want to watch a more competitive league. So mocking the posters will simply result in them saying "well enjoy your one horse league" and that will be the extent of it.

And re German fans, I reckon they won't care that much what others think because at least from what I've seen, German football is very pro-fan and community based. So as long as they enjoy supporting their team and enjoy the match-day experience, they're good .
 

shahzy

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What a boring league. No wonder they could sit on a high horse and say 'no to superleague.' they might have had to compete once more
 

Hakara

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So much salt in this thread. The man is born right outside of münchen, his family lives in münchen. It was clear as day to me that he would sign when Hansi wanted out. No idea why united fans are salty though, "its only tottenham" that should be salty.
 

Suedesi

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At the end of the day, it will benefit the whole Bundesliga to have healthier competition for Bayern and regardless of the reasons why, it's clear that the current model is not providing that. No matter how much fans of the Bundesliga defend the league, it unfortunately won't be attractive for outside viewers without these concerns being addressed. It will just be a case of dissenters saying "well enjoy Bayern Munich winning the next 20 titles" and leaving it at that.

And while a lot of Bundesliga fans won't care, it is a shame at least in my opinion because I've always liked the league, but without being a fan of any team it's harder to pay close attention to it these days.
I'm not a Bayern fan, but I'm sure they would love more competition. Heynckes all-conquering treble team came on the scene after Klopp's Dortmund had kicked their asses in the league for 2 seasons in a row. They were getting creamed in Germany in the league and Pokal as well, not to mention that CL defeat by Chelsea on home ground. Bayern had to regroup, dig deep and then eventually won the treble. So competition was actually good for them. When they started dominating at home in Germany under Pep, they would come up short in Europe time and time again. Last year after Kovac's disastrous start they had to compete in the league. Funny enough they won the treble again.

Regarding Bundesliga, of course they're going to be largely dominant, they're arguably one of the top 3 teams in Europe. If they can outplay PSG, wipe the floor with Lazio, Atletico Madrid etc, what hope does Freiburg and Werder Bremen have? Spain is the same thing, but instead of one dominant team they have two. In their pomp Pep's Barca and Mourinho's Real would routinely get to 100 points and the league was decided by El Classico - the rest of the teams were just cannon fodder for Messi and Ronaldo to inflate their stats and produce highlights. Was that league competitive? The last 16 La Ligas were won by either Barca or Real 15 times out of 16. Barca will probably win the title again despite giving Atleti a 10 point handicap in January.

Same shit in Italy, Juventus won 9 in a row, this year it will be Inter after stealing Juve's DOF and Juve's old coach (after Juventus really tried to sabotage themselves with Sarri and then hiring a guy that had 20 minutes of coaching experience). This is how utterly dominant and bored of winning Juve were. Prior to Juve''s dominance, it was Inter with 6 in a row with Milan winning the occasional one. It's 21 years before one of the big three won it. Atalanta, Napoli, Roma, Lazio, all last until March until the big team gets away. I can look at the Italian mercato in August and tell you who's going to win the league with 95% certainty.

France is PSG all the way, unless their superstars get bored of thrashing everyone 5-0. Yes Lille are having an amazing season, and I truly hope they do it, but it will be a miracle not the norm.

Modern football, eh...
 
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SAFMUTD

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He’ll be fine in the league, but he’ll flop in Europe.

Bloke can’t organise a defence to save himself.
I get the impression that many believe he can't defend because of the games against us this year. Well in the Bundesliga Leipzig has the best defensive record of the league. Allowing just 25 goals in 31 games with 15 clean sheets.

For perspective they have allowed 15 goals less than Bayern.
 

Cheimoon

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I read that thread, it was a good discussion.

But in any case, I was speaking more to the tone of the post than anything. As a casual Bundesliga follower I don't disagree that the accusations are a bit far-fetched, but the reality is dissenters don't care the reasons why; they just want to watch a more competitive league. So mocking the posters will simply result in them saying "well enjoy your one horse league" and that will be the extent of it.

And re German fans, I reckon they won't care that much what others think because at least from what I've seen, German football is very pro-fan and community based. So as long as they enjoy supporting their team and enjoy the match-day experience, they're good .
Well, ultimately, we all agree about that: more competition = nice!
 

Zhagzi

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Once again, the oh so great Bayern reaches out and destroys whatever good the Bundesliga has in terms of competition. Clearly some legacy tactics at play here; move quickly on the competitors' strongest assests and nullify them for an easy win. When Dortmund was challenging their reign, what did they do? Took out Lewandowski, Hummels and Götze. Now that RB Lepzig is the one to challenge, they take out Nagelsmann. Pathetic loyalty in that league and pathetic behavior to ensure constant domination.
 

NinjaZombie

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I think the impression that Bayern gets all the best players in Bundesliga is inaccurate, but not too far off considering in the past, they've gotten players like Lewandoski, Gotze, Hummels from Dortmund and now Upamecano and Nagelsmann from Salzburg.

They don't get ALL the best players but they do succeed in weakening their rivals at times.
 

Rektsanwalt

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I think the impression that Bayern gets all the best players in Bundesliga is inaccurate, but not too far off considering in the past, they've gotten players like Lewandoski, Gotze, Hummels from Dortmund and now Upamecano and Nagelsmann from Salzburg.

They don't get ALL the best players but they do succeed in weakening their rivals at times.
It's Leipzig and not Salzburg, but yes, you're obviously right that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.
 

rimaldo

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leipzig fans must have woken up this morning feeling like they’ve won the lottery. papa munich have deemed them worthy enough of having something they want. that’s any german fan’s dream.