Julian Nagelsmann | Joining Bayern

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
47,593
Location
France
I don't think anyone is arguing against that (anymore); it's now more about whether Leipzig could have negotiated a larger clause, or at least a larger clause for a transfer inside the Bundesliga, or just to Bayern, to this avoid strengthening their competitors.
Why would a player do that? He has all the cards in his hands outside of money, the only way a player would extend and agree to include a restrictive clause is if the club gives him substantially more money which isn't necessarily in the interest of the club or even in his capabilities.
 

do.ob

Full Member
Joined
Jun 19, 2010
Messages
9,457
Location
Germany
I don't think anyone is arguing against that (anymore); it's now more about whether Leipzig could have negotiated a larger clause, or at least a larger clause for a transfer inside the Bundesliga, or just to Bayern, to this avoid strengthening their competitors.
Players are almost always in a better negotiationing position, when the contract is running out the club has to rely on the player's good will entirely, but even when we are talking about teenagers: the market is so competitive, when clubs try to force something that the player doesn't like they can just pick one of a dozen other destinations in Europe. German clubs generally speaking don't have the money to just buy off a player's ambition like for example de Gea's desire to join Real, so they have to swallow some release clauses here and there.
 
Last edited:

GuyfromAustria

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
332
I think the impression that Bayern gets all the best players in Bundesliga is inaccurate, but not too far off considering in the past, they've gotten players like Lewandoski, Gotze, Hummels from Dortmund and now Upamecano and Nagelsmann from Salzburg.

They don't get ALL the best players but they do succeed in weakening their rivals at times.
When Leverkusen was successful (well, you know...couple of second places), they lost Ballack, Ze Roberto, Lucio, Kovac to Bayern.
Soon after Werder Bremen were champions and became CL regulars, they lost Klose, Ismaël, Borowski to Bayern.

No need to get hysteric about that, but you can't deny it happens on a regular basis.
 

Rektsanwalt

Full Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
176
Supports
Schalke 04
When Leverkusen was successful (well, you know...couple of second places), they lost Ballack, Ze Roberto, Lucio, Kovac to Bayern.
Soon after Werder Bremen were champions and became CL regulars, they lost Klose, Ismaël, Borowski to Bayern.

No need to get hysteric about that, but you can't deny it happens on a regular basis.
When writing that list, did you realize some of these transfers happened almost 20 years ago?
 

stefan92

Full Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2021
Messages
163
Supports
Hannover 96
When writing that list, did you realize some of these transfers happened almost 20 years ago?
It's true that Bayern have changed their behaviour on the transfer market in the last years - there are now very few moves like those, while still some are happening.

But one can't deny, that this behaviour over decades ensured their dominance over the league, no other team had the chance to grow to become a real component. But on the other hand, a lot of those players would probably have moved to international top clubs anyway
 

Rektsanwalt

Full Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
176
Supports
Schalke 04
It's true that Bayern have changed their behaviour on the transfer market in the last years - there are now very few moves like those, while still some are happening.

But one can't deny, that this behaviour over decades ensured their dominance over the league, no other team had the chance to grow to become a real component. But on the other hand, a lot of those players would probably have moved to international top clubs anyway
95% of them would have anyways, yes. Noone denies that Bayern abused their market power to weaken opponents in the last decades, though, these are the 5%. Thing is, as you already mentioned, this has changed quite some time ago, around 2010 maybe or even earlier. They only seek to strengthem themselves in the most efficient way nowadays, I don't see intentional aim to weaken opponents at the moment. It's a welcome sideeffect, I'd say. But the Bundesliga has no benefit when players like Kagawa, Aubameyang, Sancho, Sane (list goes on and on) just follow the call of foreign topclubs.
 

GuyfromAustria

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
332
When writing that list, did you realize some of these transfers happened almost 20 years ago?
It's about looking at the wider picture, you don't have another serious contender every other year. It's a sensible time span for a decent sample size. As I said, no need to get hysteric (like "they a buying the 3 best players of the second best team every summer"), but the pattern is there. Of course it wouldn't bother as many people, if there were other big teams who could really rival them.
 

Rektsanwalt

Full Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
176
Supports
Schalke 04
It's about looking at the wider picture, you don't have another serious contender every other year. It's a sensible time span for a decent sample size. As I said, no need to get hysteric (like "they a buying the 3 best players of the second best team every summer"), but the pattern is there. Of course it wouldn't bother as many people, if there were other big teams who could really rival them.
Honestly, football is such a rapid changing business, I don't think what happened almost 20 years ago should be relevant at all in this case.
 

GuyfromAustria

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
332
Honestly, football is such a rapid changing business, I don't think what happened almost 20 years ago should be relevant at all in this case.
I don't share that view, but fair enough.

I'd just love the Bundesliga title races to be more interesting, it was way better before Bayern's title streak started.
 

sun_tzu

The Art of Bore
Joined
Aug 23, 2010
Messages
16,778
Location
Pretend inferiority and encourage his arrogance.
When Leverkusen was successful (well, you know...couple of second places), they lost Ballack, Ze Roberto, Lucio, Kovac to Bayern.
Soon after Werder Bremen were champions and became CL regulars, they lost Klose, Ismaël, Borowski to Bayern.

No need to get hysteric about that, but you can't deny it happens on a regular basis.
I mean regular is subjective so lets take the last 5 years and 10 years as examples

In the last 5 years Bayern have brought 27 players from other clubs... of which 10 were from German clubs (so pretty much 37%)
In the last 5 years Bayern have spent 412.9 million on players of which 109.9 million was from german clubs (so pretty much 26.5%)

These 10 signings also included Gortexka, Rudy and Nubel who were actually a free agenst so you could even argue they technically didnt sign him from a german cub and in reality they signed 26% of players from german clubs

in terms of weakening the teams that are challenging them then this is who they signed them from

20/21 Nubel - Shalke - finished 18th
19/20 Cuissinance - Monchengladbach - finished 4th (17 points behind Bayern)
19/20 Arp - Hamberg - were in division 2
19/20 Pavard - Stutgart - were in division 2
18/19 Gortexka - Shalke - finished 14th
17/18 Sule - Hofenheim - Finished 3rd (29 points behind Bayern)
17/18 Wagner - Hofenheim - Finished (29 points behind Bayern)
17/18 Rudy - Hofenheim - Finished(29 points behind Bayern)
17/18 Gnabry - Werder - finished 16th
16/17 Hummles - Dortnund - finished 3rd (18 points behind Bayern)

I think the only one you could even make an argument they were weakening a club who were a threat is Hummles

1 signing out of 27 (about 4%) and 31.5 out of 412.9 million or about 7.5% of their spend

As i say regular is subjective and if 96% of their signings had conformed to your theory or even 92.5% of their spend I would agree with you - but as the opposit is true it seems a stretch to say this is regular

Opening this up to a 10 year window and we see

57 players brought from other clubs of which 24 were from german clubs so 42% - an increase but clearly still most players were not brought from german clubs
total spend over that period was 654.1 million with 202.6 of that being spent with German clubs - so around 30%

Players signed from clubs who could genuinley be considered rivals ober that perios would be
Lewendowski (though he is a free agent so you could argue shouldnt count) and Gotze

which means over a 10 year period we have 2 or 3 players out of 57 (so between 3.5 and 5.25% depending how you could lewendowski) players signed from a genuine BL rival and 9.8% of money spend on those

So 95% of signings and 90% of money spent falls outside of this supposedly regular occurance

i mean totally 100% feel free to show me some evidence from the last 10 years that contradicts this

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-bayern-munchen/alletransfers/verein/27
 

Longshanks

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 23, 2020
Messages
312
Honestly, football is such a rapid changing business, I don't think what happened almost 20 years ago should be relevant at all in this case.
It definitely is relevant considering that bayern have won 14 out of the last twenty Bundesliga, they were still the biggest club before that but only won 14 out of 40 (give or take) in the later part of the 20th century.

Now football has changed alot since then but Germany is a big country with a massive footballing heritage, one club should not have that kind of dominance there about to win 9 on bounce which is outrageous, and there actions in the last twenty years have put them into that posistion.
 

Hansi Fick

Full Member
Joined
Oct 16, 2020
Messages
1,578
Supports
FC Bayern
I mean regular is subjective so lets take the last 5 years and 10 years as examples

In the last 5 years Bayern have brought 27 players from other clubs... of which 10 were from German clubs (so pretty much 37%)
In the last 5 years Bayern have spent 412.9 million on players of which 109.9 million was from german clubs (so pretty much 26.5%)

These 10 signings also included Gortexka, Rudy and Nubel who were actually a free agenst so you could even argue they technically didnt sign him from a german cub and in reality they signed 26% of players from german clubs

in terms of weakening the teams that are challenging them then this is who they signed them from

20/21 Nubel - Shalke - finished 18th
19/20 Cuissinance - Monchengladbach - finished 4th (17 points behind Bayern)
19/20 Arp - Hamberg - were in division 2
19/20 Pavard - Stutgart - were in division 2
18/19 Gortexka - Shalke - finished 14th
17/18 Sule - Hofenheim - Finished 3rd (29 points behind Bayern)
17/18 Wagner - Hofenheim - Finished (29 points behind Bayern)
17/18 Rudy - Hofenheim - Finished(29 points behind Bayern)
17/18 Gnabry - Werder - finished 16th
16/17 Hummles - Dortnund - finished 3rd (18 points behind Bayern)

I think the only one you could even make an argument they were weakening a club who were a threat is Hummles

1 signing out of 27 (about 4%) and 31.5 out of 412.9 million or about 7.5% of their spend

As i say regular is subjective and if 96% of their signings had conformed to your theory or even 92.5% of their spend I would agree with you - but as the opposit is true it seems a stretch to say this is regular

Opening this up to a 10 year window and we see

57 players brought from other clubs of which 24 were from german clubs so 42% - an increase but clearly still most players were not brought from german clubs
total spend over that period was 654.1 million with 202.6 of that being spent with German clubs - so around 30%

Players signed from clubs who could genuinley be considered rivals ober that perios would be
Lewendowski (though he is a free agent so you could argue shouldnt count) and Gotze

which means over a 10 year period we have 2 or 3 players out of 57 (so between 3.5 and 5.25% depending how you could lewendowski) players signed from a genuine BL rival and 9.8% of money spend on those

So 95% of signings and 90% of money spent falls outside of this supposedly regular occurance

i mean totally 100% feel free to show me some evidence from the last 10 years that contradicts this

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-bayern-munchen/alletransfers/verein/27
Not to disagree with your post generally, but I believe you listed where the teams finished the season after we signed those players from them - so, in order to relate it to whether we 'weakened' a rival, it would probably make more sense to list the place they reached just before we signed the players, and then what happened after.
In Goretzka's case, that would mean Schalke going from 2nd place to 14th. In Hummels case, BVB going from 2nd to 3rd. Pavard, we signed him after he had been part of the CB combo that got Stuttgart relegated (the other part being a certain Kabak..). And so on.

Of course, in neither case the transfer could be considered the main reason for the lower placement (just as Hoffenheim didn't finish higher the season after because they lost Süle and Rudy..), and noone with any sense would have 17/18 Schalke considered title contenders, the second place being a fluke with the usual top 4 teams doing crazy stuff..
 
Last edited:

Rektsanwalt

Full Member
Joined
Jul 28, 2019
Messages
176
Supports
Schalke 04
It definitely is relevant considering that bayern have won 14 out of the last twenty Bundesliga, they were still the biggest club before that but only won 14 out of 40 (give or take) in the later part of the 20th century.

Now football has changed alot since then but Germany is a big country with a massive footballing heritage, one club should not have that kind of dominance there about to win 9 on bounce which is outrageous, and there actions in the last twenty years have put them into that posistion.
We weren't talking about how actions two decades ago might have had impact on the current state of the league, but mostly whether or not Bayern is still (or recently has been) intentionally hurting rivals. At least that's what I meant. All in all, I think we agree completely; their actions in the last twenty years is definitely what put them in this position. Still, their most dominant era so far (these consecutive 9 winnings) is a time in which Bayern did not actually intentionally hurt rivals just for the sake of it, or at least not remotely in the way people on this board tend to think. It's rather complex and has a lot to do with other clubs' actions. But I mean, it's hard to see through these failures from an outsider's perspective for sure. The list is too long, filled with details and it's much easier to say that it's Bayern's fault that the league is not competetive in terms of the championship. Thing is, it's just not true at all nowadays. If Bayern wasn't there to pick up these players and coaches, they'd be playing abroad, just like so many other Bundesliga players that Bayern didn't get like KdB, Dembele and so on.
 

Acrobat7

Full Member
Joined
May 13, 2013
Messages
2,275
Supports
Bayern Munich
I mean regular is subjective so lets take the last 5 years and 10 years as examples

In the last 5 years Bayern have brought 27 players from other clubs... of which 10 were from German clubs (so pretty much 37%)
In the last 5 years Bayern have spent 412.9 million on players of which 109.9 million was from german clubs (so pretty much 26.5%)

These 10 signings also included Gortexka, Rudy and Nubel who were actually a free agenst so you could even argue they technically didnt sign him from a german cub and in reality they signed 26% of players from german clubs

in terms of weakening the teams that are challenging them then this is who they signed them from

20/21 Nubel - Shalke - finished 18th
19/20 Cuissinance - Monchengladbach - finished 4th (17 points behind Bayern)
19/20 Arp - Hamberg - were in division 2
19/20 Pavard - Stutgart - were in division 2
18/19 Gortexka - Shalke - finished 14th
17/18 Sule - Hofenheim - Finished 3rd (29 points behind Bayern)
17/18 Wagner - Hofenheim - Finished (29 points behind Bayern)
17/18 Rudy - Hofenheim - Finished(29 points behind Bayern)
17/18 Gnabry - Werder - finished 16th
16/17 Hummles - Dortnund - finished 3rd (18 points behind Bayern)

I think the only one you could even make an argument they were weakening a club who were a threat is Hummles

1 signing out of 27 (about 4%) and 31.5 out of 412.9 million or about 7.5% of their spend

As i say regular is subjective and if 96% of their signings had conformed to your theory or even 92.5% of their spend I would agree with you - but as the opposit is true it seems a stretch to say this is regular

Opening this up to a 10 year window and we see

57 players brought from other clubs of which 24 were from german clubs so 42% - an increase but clearly still most players were not brought from german clubs
total spend over that period was 654.1 million with 202.6 of that being spent with German clubs - so around 30%

Players signed from clubs who could genuinley be considered rivals ober that perios would be
Lewendowski (though he is a free agent so you could argue shouldnt count) and Gotze

which means over a 10 year period we have 2 or 3 players out of 57 (so between 3.5 and 5.25% depending how you could lewendowski) players signed from a genuine BL rival and 9.8% of money spend on those

So 95% of signings and 90% of money spent falls outside of this supposedly regular occurance

i mean totally 100% feel free to show me some evidence from the last 10 years that contradicts this

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-bayern-munchen/alletransfers/verein/27
Mate, this thread is not about facts but about butthurt United fans being envious of Bayern‘s position. Please take your analysis away.
 

Topgun1

Lewandowski lover
Newbie
Joined
Feb 2, 2016
Messages
157
Supports
Arsenal
Joke signing in a joke league.

Bayern has always been the flagship German team. Bundesliga XI.

What surprises me is how a country as big and as diverse and as rich as Germany could capitulate to the dominance of one football team? I never understood that.

Where's the investment in the rest of the league? It's not as if Germany lacks economic resources. Very unimpressive.

All hail Bavaria!!!!!!
 

Boavista

Full Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2021
Messages
209
I don't think United has the same level of chances of signing these players as Bayern due to multiple reasons:
1. Players preferring to move within the league.
2. German players considering BM more prestigious
3. BM having strong contact with the players agents and generally getting first dibs on the players
4. United scouting, understandably, not being as thorough in Germany than Bayern's.

I just wanted to point out that United have to spend multiples more than Bayern, which I agree have mostly been top signing. It's true that United haven't generally bought squad players since SAF left. United is perennially stuck in the cycle of buying a shiny new player, watch them turn into squaddies, then deadwood, and finally try to replace their previously top signings with more top signings.

Maybe United aren't the best example because of their boards incompetence, but even Pool have spent big money (compared to BM) for most of their players. Even having a German coach (and presumably a strong German scouting network with him), Pool don't generally compete with Bayern for these sort of players.



In the past few years, Bayern have found themselves in the second place about the turn of the year, and yet they've won the league every time. Both Ribery and Robben were making decent impact right until they left. I put that down to the sheer gulf in quality between them and the rest of the league, moreso than their world class coaches and the stability of the club.
There's obviously some truth to that, Premier League players are more expensive and there's more competition for them. For various reasons top teams will always look at domestic players first. Probably because domestic players are deemed safer bets and have proven they can perform in that league and country, but also because it helps to have that core and club identity. However I still don't think it's a straight forward comparison, because Bayern can usually look for new players from a position of strength. They usually already have a strong core, that they can then reinforce very selectively, and in some cases let young (inexpensive) players grow into that role.

That generally hasn't been the position United or Liverpool have operated from. In Liverpool's case I think the transfers of Alisson and Van Dijk exemplify that. They narrowed down on their ideal candidate, because those positions required a top class player, and bought them at all costs. In some ways that's not that different to Bayern buying Neuer if you factor in the explosion of tranfer fees since then. Thiago's move to Liverpool on the other hand is an example of the opposite. He wasn't an absolutely crucial player, and Liverpool pursued him when they had a strong squad.

Look at all the players Bayern would have liked to have but ultimately decided against because the price was too high for them. I'm sure that if they hadn't had excellent players in those positions already, they would have thought it over and possibly tried to sign them anyway even if it was a lot of money for them. The fact that they had Ribery/Robben, and Thomas Mueller meant they could live with being patient and more selective, even though they would have loved to buy Leroy Sane, De Bruyne and Havertz. I think there was also talk of them being interested in Naby Keita at the time, but also deemed to risky/expensive. So when you look at the players Bayern buys, it's easy to come to the conclusion that they have access to really good players at cheaper prices. And that's not entirely wrong, but it's distorted by the fact that they tend to only go after the players that are available at cheaper prices. In hindsight Gnabry for instance was cheap, but at the time he was just a talent who didn't make it at Arsenal; Coman a young player, who didn't fit into Juventus' system; Kimmich, a young player playing in the second division.

Look at how Chelsea, City and Pool have fared after winning the league recently, and the trend has been that a club needs to bring in new blood while replacing the poorer performers to have the motivation to be ahead of the chasing pack. So being able to refresh the squad and keep the performance levels higher than the rivals is definitely a big challenge in the PL, so a couple of wrong transfers in the summer and the club is quickly out of contention of any rewards within a few months.


Totally agree with that. Let's also note that 4-6 players are competing for any top PL transfer (within PL or without), but that's hardly the case for Bayern. While saying that, I'll also acknowledge that there are other factors like Bayern's financial success and excellent management which are also key contributors to them building a stronger squad..
Of course new blood is important, but that's the case anywhere, and not a uniquely different situation in the PL. Liverpool for instance didn't really buy anyone after winning the Champions League and almost beating City to the title, and still ran away with the title the year after. That goes to show that if you already have a really good team, it's not always necessary. It's a bit simplistic to say that Chelsea, City and Pools' performances after winning the league are mostly down to just that. That's not to say strengthening the team can't avert that situation, but I don't believe buying Mahrez was the reason City kept their level up in 18/19.

I think these days you'll find that the top Bundesliga transfers are absolutely contested by more than just Bayern. After all for the very best players these days, you'll see it's the same PL teams that also compete for their signature. Sometimes they'll succeed, sometimes they'll miss out.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
47,593
Location
France
When Leverkusen was successful (well, you know...couple of second places), they lost Ballack, Ze Roberto, Lucio, Kovac to Bayern.
Soon after Werder Bremen were champions and became CL regulars, they lost Klose, Ismaël, Borowski to Bayern.

No need to get hysteric about that, but you can't deny it happens on a regular basis.
That's an interesting list. Leverkusen bought Ballack from Kaiserslautern a year after the latter surprisingly won the league, they bought Klose from the same team and bear in mind that Kaiserslautern were actually competing with Leverkusen for the best team after Bayern. Kovac was bought from HSV who purchased him from Leverkusen, when Bayern bought him HSV had already drifted to the bottom half of the league. It's also a bit of stretch to say that the Werder transfers happened soon after Werder emergence, it actually happened closer to the end of their cycle, they were losing starters every summer and weren't replacing them with equivalent talent.
 

Hansinity

Full Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2013
Messages
829
Supports
Bayern Munich
So much hypocrisy.

Sure you can critice Bayern for some moves in the past, but who wouldn't have done that when being in the exact same situation ?!

When you look at recent years, Bayern didn't really weaken any of their rivals.

What Bayern is to some Bundesliga teams , is the PL to the Bundesliga.

Gündogan, Leno, Son ,KDB ,Havertz, Werner, Xhaka, Kagawa, Mikhytarian, Aubameyang, Firmino, Dzeko, Demba ba, Cisse, Haller, Joelinton, Sane, Keita , Pulisic. Just to name a few key players of the respective teams who went to the PL.


If Bayern buys foreigners - > people criticize them for not having enough german players as the best german team. People will criticize them to spend so much money on players ( 80m for Lucas Hernandez for example or Tolisso).

You also can't criticize them for buying Lewandowski, Neuer or Nagelsmann. Everyone wants/wanted them. But don't forget that they REALLY WANTED to go Bayern despite many many other interested teams.

If Bayern wouldn't have signed Lewandowski, he would have gone to Real Madrid. If Bayern wouldn't have shown itnerest to Neuer he might be playing for Manchester United. Nagelsman even explicitly said that he would have fulfilled his contract at Leipzig with the exception when Bayern will show interest.

So they all just wanted to go to Bayern. Those who dont, went to the PL.


IF you want to blame anyone then blame the PL yourself first ( I don't, since its simple, the rich eats the small, which is just reality).
 

Chairman Steve

Full Member
Joined
May 9, 2018
Messages
2,473
It’s not even a given that he’ll be good for them. Remember how Andre Villas-Boas got to Chelsea and everyone was shitting themselves that this 30-something year old manager who’d be successful at a smaller club went to a bigger club/sugar daddy club and was obviously going to be successful?
 

Zhagzi

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
64
Honestly, football is such a rapid changing business, I don't think what happened almost 20 years ago should be relevant at all in this case.
What are you on about? Of course it is relevant when the behvior we're talking about is still the occuring issue. Its like saying a woman's abusive husband 20 years ago isn't relevant when she reports him to the police for physical abuse in the present.

Bayern have systematically stolen the top players from their closest competitors for years, and is evident it is still going on in the case of RB now loosing their hot prospect of a manager to that very club, and by "coincedence" is the current manager of the currently most fierce competitor to the title.
 

Zhagzi

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
64
It’s not even a given that he’ll be good for them. Remember how Andre Villas-Boas got to Chelsea and everyone was shitting themselves that this 30-something year old manager who’d be successful at a smaller club went to a bigger club/sugar daddy club and was obviously going to be successful?
Besides the point. If he's a success or not is irrelevant. He is and has been succesful with RB Leipzig - the current closest competitor. By taking him away from them, you're hampering the competition.
 

Cheimoon

Best Newbie Promoted 2020
Scout
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
3,895
Location
Canada
Supports
no-one in particular
Joke signing in a joke league.

Bayern has always been the flagship German team. Bundesliga XI.

What surprises me is how a country as big and as diverse and as rich as Germany could capitulate to the dominance of one football team? I never understood that.

Where's the investment in the rest of the league? It's not as if Germany lacks economic resources. Very unimpressive.

All hail Bavaria!!!!!!
Can you at least read a bit of the thread, if only the last couple of pages, before you post? This has been discussed for pages now and your post is adding absolutely nothing to that. If anything, it's like you're trolling by bringing this up in this manner again.
 

OutlawGER

Full Member
Joined
May 25, 2012
Messages
3,713
Location
Cologne
Supports
Bayern München, 1. FC Köln
I mean regular is subjective so lets take the last 5 years and 10 years as examples

In the last 5 years Bayern have brought 27 players from other clubs... of which 10 were from German clubs (so pretty much 37%)
In the last 5 years Bayern have spent 412.9 million on players of which 109.9 million was from german clubs (so pretty much 26.5%)

These 10 signings also included Gortexka, Rudy and Nubel who were actually a free agenst so you could even argue they technically didnt sign him from a german cub and in reality they signed 26% of players from german clubs

in terms of weakening the teams that are challenging them then this is who they signed them from

20/21 Nubel - Shalke - finished 18th
19/20 Cuissinance - Monchengladbach - finished 4th (17 points behind Bayern)
19/20 Arp - Hamberg - were in division 2
19/20 Pavard - Stutgart - were in division 2
18/19 Gortexka - Shalke - finished 14th
17/18 Sule - Hofenheim - Finished 3rd (29 points behind Bayern)
17/18 Wagner - Hofenheim - Finished (29 points behind Bayern)
17/18 Rudy - Hofenheim - Finished(29 points behind Bayern)
17/18 Gnabry - Werder - finished 16th
16/17 Hummles - Dortnund - finished 3rd (18 points behind Bayern)

I think the only one you could even make an argument they were weakening a club who were a threat is Hummles

1 signing out of 27 (about 4%) and 31.5 out of 412.9 million or about 7.5% of their spend

As i say regular is subjective and if 96% of their signings had conformed to your theory or even 92.5% of their spend I would agree with you - but as the opposit is true it seems a stretch to say this is regular

Opening this up to a 10 year window and we see

57 players brought from other clubs of which 24 were from german clubs so 42% - an increase but clearly still most players were not brought from german clubs
total spend over that period was 654.1 million with 202.6 of that being spent with German clubs - so around 30%

Players signed from clubs who could genuinley be considered rivals ober that perios would be
Lewendowski (though he is a free agent so you could argue shouldnt count) and Gotze

which means over a 10 year period we have 2 or 3 players out of 57 (so between 3.5 and 5.25% depending how you could lewendowski) players signed from a genuine BL rival and 9.8% of money spend on those

So 95% of signings and 90% of money spent falls outside of this supposedly regular occurance

i mean totally 100% feel free to show me some evidence from the last 10 years that contradicts this

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/fc-bayern-munchen/alletransfers/verein/27
Good post, they still won't get it though. Bayern of 90's and 00's is not the same of the 10's and 20's.
 

hasanejaz88

Full Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2017
Messages
3,317
Location
Munich
Supports
Germany
I haven't read the past few pages of the thread but I would like to add something. People forget that Bayern have always been like this, in terms of buying players from the Bundesliga. From the time I started following the BL in the early 00's, you had Bayern buying Ballack, Ze Roberto, Lucio, Frings, Ismael, Deisler etc from Bundesliga clubs. Even then they were not winning many titles in a row, I think they won at most 2 at a time that decade, with teams like Dortmund, Bremen, Stuttgart and Wolfsburg winning in between.

That was no different to United in the 90's. From the advent of the EPL, in the 92/93 season, to Chelsea winning in 04/05, United won 8 out of 12 seasons. That was certainly helped with buying players like Cole, Yorke, Cantona, Ferdinand, Keane etc from local rivals as well.

So what changed for Bayern from the 90's and 00's, when they were similarly buying players from Bundesliga clubs?

First and foremost is a strong core of youth players. I can't remember Bayern ever having such an amazing batch of youth products together at one time since the 70's. Youth products are free and therefore leave you with room to buy more players to fill other gaps in the team. Had Bayern not had Lahm, Schweinsteiger, Alaba, Muller and Kroos to fill spaces in the first XI, they would have had to sign players. That ofcourse costs money that you can't invest in other players, but also you have the uncertainty of whether that player can be great. All those youth players were world class and one of the best in the world in their position, there were few players that could subsititue their ability. Non-Bayern followers won't remember the dark days of Ottl, Lell and Rensing being Bayern's youth players playing in the first team. To go from them to the batch they had over the last decade, that can be the decider between winning majority titles to utterly dominating the league.

Secondly, Bayern's signings have been pretty amazing during this period as well. Like I said previously, Bayern have always bought from the league, but that included signings like Ismael, Podolski, Klose and Van Buyten who while not being poor players, weren't amazing high level players that could help them dominate the league. You look at the team that won the UCL final and see that is full of shrewd signings, a mix of young players signed for cheap and players who were considered flops at their former clubs and also signed at a bargain. Gnabry, someone who couldn't get a game for West Brom, Boateng, considered a flop after one season in England, Coman, given away after one season by Juve. All when they were signed were not considered to become as great as they have now. Then you have Kimmich and Alfonso Davies, two players signed in their teens when they were not considered to be the best teenagers in the world. Under the radar signings who again turned into one of the best in the world.

Obviously, amongst those you have your Lewandowski, Goretzka and Neuer who you can considered were guaranteed to be great (though I would argue against Goretzka for that), but that was something Bayern always had in the past, and all big clubs in Europe have. What separated Bayern in this decade from the past combining these big money signings with one of the greatest youth batches in Europe and some fantastic shwred signings. For that the management has to be given immense credit.
 

plex

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
190
What are you on about? Of course it is relevant when the behvior we're talking about is still the occuring issue. Its like saying a woman's abusive husband 20 years ago isn't relevant when she reports him to the police for physical abuse in the present.

Bayern have systematically stolen the top players from their closest competitors for years, and is evident it is still going on in the case of RB now loosing their hot prospect of a manager to that very club, and by "coincedence" is the current manager of the currently most fierce competitor to the title.
To be honest, I don’t get all this moaning about Bayern. I mean, what do you expect a well running club to do, not trying to sign the best options or make bad decisions for the sake of a better competition? It’s not like they pressured Flick to leave the club, the latter insisted in doing so, hence Bayern had to take action and look for good alternatives. Bayern paid Leipzig a record fee for a coach. Are you blaming Bayern for being proactive and trying to make good deals? Every club would do the same. Compared to the PL or oil/sheik clubs Bayern is not able to buy >100M players on a regular basis.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
47,593
Location
France
To be honest, I don’t get all this moaning about Bayern. I mean, what do you expect a well running club to do, not trying to sign the best options or make bad decisions for the sake of a better competition? It’s not like they pressured Flick to leave the club, the latter insisted in doing so, hence Bayern had to take action and look for good alternatives. Bayern paid Leipzig a record fee for a coach. Are you blaming Bayern for being proactive and trying to make good deals? Every club would do the same. Compared to the PL or oil/sheik clubs Bayern is not able to buy >100M players on a regular basis.
Bayern have the same financial capacities than PL teams, they are in the same bracket in terms of revenue. Which is why they dominate nationally but also continentally.
 

plex

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
190
Bayern have the same financial capacities than PL teams, they are in the same bracket in terms of revenue. Which is why they dominate nationally but also continentally.
That’s not quite true or not the whole story. While teams like Man City, PSG, Chelsea etc. have literally infinite money to spend and do not have to worry much if a big transfer fails, Bayern does not have these kind of resources. Apart from that, the Bundesliga clubs receive a significant lower amount of money from the domestic tv deals, hence they have to find other ways to generate money.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
47,593
Location
France
That’s not quite true or not the whole story. While teams like Man City, PSG, Chelsea etc. have literally infinite money to spend and do not have to worry much if a big transfer fails, Bayern does not have these kind of resources. Apart from that, the Bundesliga clubs receive a significant lower amount of money from the domestic tv deals, hence they have to find other ways to generate money.
How is that not true you created two categories PL teams or oil/sheikh clubs. The clubs that you mentioned are oil/sheikhs clubs, while I told you that Bayern have the same capabilities than PL teams. You do realize that Bayern have the third revenue in the world behind Barcelona and Real Madrid?
 

plex

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 29, 2010
Messages
190
How is that not true you created two categories PL teams or oil/sheikh clubs. The clubs that you mentioned are oil/sheikhs clubs, while I told you that Bayern have the same capabilities than PL teams. You do realize that Bayern have the third revenue in the world behind Barcelona and Real Madrid?
These were just examples, since Bayern is competing with these kind of clubs for the best players. Bayern has high revenues because they made some good business decisions in the past despite the fact that they receive less money from the tv deals and beside the fact that they do not have a sugar daddy.
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
47,593
Location
France
These were just examples, since Bayern is competing with these kind of clubs for the best players. Bayern has high revenues because they made some good business decisions in the past despite the fact that they receive less money from the tv deals and beside the fact that they do not have a sugar daddy.
Bayern have the highest commercial revenues in the world which compensate for TV deals and see them have higher revenues than any PL club not named United, they have significantly higher revenues than City, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal and Tottenham.
 

NinjaZombie

Punched the air when Liverpool beat City
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
8,458
When Leverkusen was successful (well, you know...couple of second places), they lost Ballack, Ze Roberto, Lucio, Kovac to Bayern.
Soon after Werder Bremen were champions and became CL regulars, they lost Klose, Ismaël, Borowski to Bayern.

No need to get hysteric about that, but you can't deny it happens on a regular basis.
I'd forgotten about Leverkusen.

It's a pattern that non watcher of the Bundesliga keep seeing. Yes, not all good German players go to Bayern, but certainly happens more often than in England.
 

Raven

Full Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2012
Messages
4,152
Location
Ireland
So what's after happening here then? From what I can see on Sky Sports, it looks as if he's been pushed out for asking for a vote on transfers. Have I got this right or am I missing something?
 

Cheimoon

Best Newbie Promoted 2020
Scout
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
3,895
Location
Canada
Supports
no-one in particular
So what's after happening here then? From what I can see on Sky Sports, it looks as if he's been pushed out for asking for a vote on transfers. Have I got this right or am I missing something?
Yeah, Flick had a conflict with Bayern's DoF and wanted more power. Bayern didn't want to give in, so Flick forced a break over that - probably in the knowledge that the national team job was available and that he'd get it if he wanted. So that's what's happening now: Flick is moving to the German national team after the season, and Bayern are hiring Nagelsmann instead (with a hefty transfer sum going to Leipzig).
 

pass.pass.pass

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 13, 2020
Messages
130
Roberto Baggio played for Fiorentina, Juventus, Inter and AC Milan. The biggest Italian player ever, switching rival teams, when Serie A was at its pomp.

Switches between Inter and AC Milan are so common, Juve and Milan, Roma, Napoli and other teams also. Players go from Atletico to Real Madrid and vice versa, from Barca to Atletico and vice versa and all the lower teams as well.

Just get over it.
What's to get over :lol:

I just mentioned the type of rivalry I prefer.