Julian Nagelsmann | Sacked and replaced by Tuchel

[Hansi Fick]

Mukiele wasn’t the only defender making basic defensive mistakes. Upamecano seemed to be in dreamland too. And he was extremely poor at Old Trafford as well.

I don’t watch them play much. I really don’t care how good or bad they are overall. I’m just commenting on what I’ve seen in this season’s CL campaign. Which is a team that blitzes for the first 15 minutes of each half then looks more and more average as the game goes on, while making a series of rookie defensive errors. They certainly don’t look a patch on what Klopp’s Dortmund used to look like. They were seriously impressive in Europe. RB Leipzig are not.

You are correct though, the Leipzig team is average on the whole, and Nagelsmann is more like a young Bavarian Bielsa than a young Bavarian Klopp. He gets them overachieving in general though, and it's fun to watch. But Klopp's Dortmund were a much better team, and so are of course his Liverpool.
No idea why people thought Leipzig could be a threat to Liverpool, probably due to the latter's recent poor form.

 

[The holy trinity 68]

Why does Ole have to be brought up in nearly every thread? He has his own thread for that. Sly dig's at our manager in every thread is getting tedious.

 

[Zlatan 7]

You are correct though, the Leipzig team is average on the whole, and Nagelsmann is more like a young Bavarian Bielsa than a young Bavarian Klopp. He gets them overachieving in general though, and it's fun to watch. But Klopp's Dortmund were a much better team, and so are of course his Liverpool.
No idea why people thought Leipzig could be a threat to Liverpool, probably due to the latter's recent poor form.

Liverpool have been getting beat by the lower teams of the premier league and in a bad run, then there’s Julian and his Technicolor dream coat being the best thing since sliced bread with a champions league team. I’ll admit I got my hopes up and maybe to keen to watch them knock Liverpool out, didn’t quite go to plan as they were shit

 

[Hansi Fick]

Liverpool have been getting beat by the lower teams of the premier league and in a bad run, then there’s Julian and his Technicolor dream coat being the best thing since sliced bread with a champions league team. I’ll admit I got my hopes up and maybe to keen to watch them knock Liverpool out, didn’t quite go to plan as they were shit

I was hoping they could knock out Liverpool for us, too
And I like Nagelsmann very much, but it was always going to be an uphill climb.

 

[Godfather]

Did they miss big chances? They hit the post early on from something the striker did well to get his head to in the first place and then had a chance in the 93rd minute. I honestly can’t remember any other glaring chances. Liverpool had better chances I thought even though their goals came from mistakes

also playing that high line and leaving it 2 v 2 with all that space was asking for trouble, Liverpool almost took advantage of that before the goals, no wonder mistakes were made

In the second half Allison made a wonderful save in a one on one situation too. Three sitters more or less missed by Leipzig.

Their mistakes came from almost zero pressure, especially Sabitzer's stupid pass.

So I don't think Nagelsmann's game plan per se was wrong. The brainfarts of some of his players cost him. Anyway my point is that he is overachieving with the material he has at his hands. Something you can't say about our manager at this point.

 

[Zlatan 7]

In the second half Allison made a wonderful save in a one on one situation too. Three sitters more or less missed by Leipzig.

Their mistakes came from almost zero pressure, especially Sabitzer's stupid pass.

So I don't think Nagelsmann's game plan per se was wrong. The brainfarts of some of his players cost him. Anyway my point is that he is overachieving with the material he has at his hands. Something you can't say about our manager at this point.

I’d argue that playing that high line invited the pressure and mistakes, they genuinely looked a shambles to me. But who knows.

 

[Champ]

I’d argue that playing that high line invited the pressure and mistakes, they genuinely looked a shambles to me. But who knows.

They looked a shambles at Old Trafford.
They also were lucky against instanbul away.
It happens.

 

[Siorac]

Their level of quality last season for example is far lower than that Dortmund side

Hell, I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that their level of player quality is lower than the current Dortmund side. Even though the latter are almost invariably awful these days.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Hell, I don't think it's outrageous to suggest that their level of player quality is lower than the current Dortmund side. Even though the latter are almost invariably awful these days.

Yes, BVB have the better squad without a doubt. Much better.

 

[united_99]

I hate how loosely this word gets thrown around on social media regarding football.

They beat PSG at home, and pushed them hard away from home to the point that PSG were on the back foot towards the end of the match. Individual mistakes will creep in when you have inconsistent players, Mukiele was the also the one who almost conceded the own goal in the last match as well.

But ofcourse, that's also because of the fast paced style Nagelsmann likes to play. You can argue Mukiele's error yesterday would not have been punished if he wasn't the last man, due to Nagelsmann's attacking tactics. But that's a facet of him that I appreciate more, and it will look better when you have better players in those positions. Pep/Klopp's team regularly defend with a high line where it depends on the last defender to clear chances, ofcourse there's a big difference between having a 23 year old Mukiele clearing the ball and a prime Pique/Masherano/Van Diyk doing it.

They beat PSG when all of Neymar, Mbappe and Veratti were out injured/due to covid.
The question is if he will be better with better players or not. Pep with his style (before he got more defensive this season) easily got countered in a few games. And when it happened it looked really bad / amateurish. But he makes up for it by winning 70 - 80% of the other games by playing like that.
That’s the real challenge. Do you end up winning most of your games by playing like that or not. In the Bundesliga the set up is different. However if Nagelsmann played like that in the Premier League there would be more teams scoring easily against him, unless he changes his system a bit.

 

[Hansi Fick]

They beat PSG when all of Neymar, Mbappe and Veratti were out injured/due to covid.
The question is if he will be better with better players or not. Pep with his style (before he got more defensive this season) easily got countered in a few games. And when it happened it looked really bad / amateurish. But he makes up for it by winning 70 - 80% of the other games by playing like that.
That’s the real challenge. Do you end up winning most of your games by playing like that or not. In the Bundesliga the set up is different. However if Nagelsmann played like that in the Premier League there would be more teams scoring easily against him, unless he changes his system a bit.

The problem is (your problem, not mine) that you draw wrong conclusions and operate with wrong axiomatic, due to the deep lying Premier League supremacy complex you have been brainwashed into.

 

[united_99]

The problem is (your problem, not mine) that you draw wrong conclusions and operate with wrong axiomatic, due to the deep lying Premier League supremacy complex you have been brainwashed into.

Oh the Bundesliga inferiority complex shines through again ... chill, we all know Bayern are good, doesn’t mean the rest of the Bundesliga are as well ... but you as a supporter of the entire Bundesliga’s parent club obviously has to defend your kids’ honour all the time.

 

[Rektsanwalt]

Not that it really matters, but if people dont stop with their cringy Bundesliga vs PL shit, my ignore list will go through the roof

cant you just fecking behave?

 

[VP89]

They beat PSG when all of Neymar, Mbappe and Veratti were out injured/due to covid.
The question is if he will be better with better players or not. Pep with his style (before he got more defensive this season) easily got countered in a few games. And when it happened it looked really bad / amateurish. But he makes up for it by winning 70 - 80% of the other games by playing like that.
That’s the real challenge. Do you end up winning most of your games by playing like that or not. In the Bundesliga the set up is different. However if Nagelsmann played like that in the Premier League there would be more teams scoring easily against him, unless he changes his system a bit.

Every top club this season has had patchy slow starts to the league because of a covid impact. Pep also had Augero and KDB missing which is two of his best players. He did not get more defensive, he is just missing key attacking personnel who would have otherwise made a bigger impact if they were fit from the beginning. Moreover its a breakout season for certain players like Foden and Cancelo who are settling with the first team and building their chemistry better.

I can't think of an example of a manager who has done very well, far above average, with 2 or more smaller jobs and then gone on to completely implode at a big club. Poch did very well on reflection for both Southampton and Tottenham, Rodgers did very well for Swansea, I think he was a good manager for Liverpool too, and Celtic and now Leicester. Allegri did a good job at Cagliari before going on to do even better at AC Milan.

There will be exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking, managers who offer progressive performances and very positive returns in smaller clubs tend to transcend that when backed at bigger project. Saying "we don't know if he will be better with better players" is more of a point if it was a real 50/50, but the chances are high that he will be a very good manager when backed with better players.

 

[Synco]

The problem is (your problem, not mine) that you draw wrong conclusions and operate with wrong axiomatic, due to the deep lying Premier League supremacy complex you have been brainwashed into.

Oh the Bundesliga inferiority complex shines through again ... chill, we all know Bayern are good, doesn’t mean the rest of the Bundesliga are as well ... but you as a supporter of the entire Bundesliga’s parent club obviously has to defend your kids’ honour all the time.

Gods, can't you two just take it to PM and not stink up another thread with this crap?

 

[Judas]

Gods, can't you two just take it to PM and not stink up another thread with this crap?

Aye its getting a bit toxic this German/British beef on here, it's messing up way too many threads at this point.

 

[united_99]

Every top club this season has had patchy slow starts to the league because of a covid impact. Pep also had Augero and KDB missing which is two of his best players. He did not get more defensive, he is just missing key attacking personnel who would have otherwise made a bigger impact if they were fit from the beginning. Moreover its a breakout season for certain players like Foden and Cancelo who are settling with the first team and building their chemistry better.

I can't think of an example of a manager who has done very well, far above average, with 2 or more smaller jobs and then gone on to completely implode at a big club. Poch did very well on reflection for both Southampton and Tottenham, Rodgers did very well for Swansea, I think he was a good manager for Liverpool too, and Celtic and now Leicester. Allegri did a good job at Cagliari before going on to do even better at AC Milan.

There will be exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking, managers who offer progressive performances and very positive returns in smaller clubs tend to transcend that when backed at bigger project. Saying "we don't know if he will be better with better players" is more of a point if it was a real 50/50, but the chances are high that he will be a very good manager when backed with better players.

I don’t think anyone has suggested that Nagelsmann would completely implode. But that’s not what we want from our next manager “someone who would not completely implode”.
With Ole so far we were “nearly there” / getting knocked out in semis. With a couple of quality additions we will probably improve, but the question is / will be if we will still be nearly there or get over the line (and not only once, but regularly).
So from our next manager I would want him to make that final step with us.
Both Nagelsmann and Rodgers have similar question marks (and obviously both have time on their side) - but if Ole was to leave I would prefer Rodgers to Nagelsmann for now. This might change in a few years though.

 

[hasanejaz88]

They beat PSG when all of Neymar, Mbappe and Veratti were out injured/due to covid.
The question is if he will be better with better players or not. Pep with his style (before he got more defensive this season) easily got countered in a few games. And when it happened it looked really bad / amateurish. But he makes up for it by winning 70 - 80% of the other games by playing like that.
That’s the real challenge. Do you end up winning most of your games by playing like that or not. In the Bundesliga the set up is different. However if Nagelsmann played like that in the Premier League there would be more teams scoring easily against him, unless he changes his system a bit.

PSG had lost key players but Leipzeg were also without Halstenberg (usually their third CB in a back 3) and Konrad Laimer (one of their best players last season). Neymar and Mbappe were back for the match in Paris and even then Leipzeg were the dominant team with PSG winning with a poor penalty given by the ref.

I'm not even speaking of Pep this season but rather his Barca team, which played just as high up as City and won 2 UCL titles. Even if you want to talk about City, Pep won 2 titles with record numbers on that same offensive system, why wasn't he getting countered those seasons with teams scoring easily against him?

Having better players obviously matters, though difference in league styles can change things as well based on your conditions. Klopp has changed his system markably from what he first had at Dortmund, with his Liverpool system giving more protection to the center backs from midfield and attacks being focused from the wing backs. Pep though has largely stayed true to himself and still dominated. Pep had much more freedom to buy his way out of having to change styles, when he had a torrid first season he simply bought the players he needed rather than having to change tactics.

If Naglesmann does come to United, though I'm not in the OleOut camp, he should get the monetary support to build a team according to his style rather than adjust that style.

 

[VP89]

I don’t think anyone has suggested that Nagelsmann would completely implode. But that’s not what we want from our next manager “someone who would not completely implode”.
With Ole so far we were “nearly there” / getting knocked out in semis. With a couple of quality additions we will probably improve, but the question is / will be if we will still be nearly there or get over the line (and not only once, but regularly).
So from our next manager I would want him to make that final step with us.
Both Nagelsmann and Rodgers have similar question marks (and obviously both have time on their side) - but if Ole was to leave I would prefer Rodgers to Nagelsmann for now. This might change in a few years though.

Sure but your insinuation was that there was a big enough question mark around the manager because he hasn't been backed with a big project yet. My point is, that becomes a bit of an abstract scenario (that he gets backed and turns out to be shit).

In any case with Ole I do not think we are nearly there either. Not yet in a cup final and not yet proving we can close the gap on City (with Liverpool imploding), which would be a normal expectation for this season. It can all change in the final 3rd of this season of course but obviously, it has to happen now.

I would rather Nagelsmann personally but I've always liked Rodgers, even when he was a big joke on this caf post Liverpool.

 

[united_99]

Sure but your insinuation was that there was a big enough question mark around the manager because he hasn't been backed with a big project yet. My point is, that becomes a bit of an abstract scenario (that he gets backed and turns out to be shit).

In any case with Ole I do not think we are nearly there either. Not yet in a cup final and not yet proving we can close the gap on City (with Liverpool imploding), which would be a normal expectation for this season. It can all change in the final 3rd of this season of course but obviously, it has to happen now.

I would rather Nagelsmann personally but I've always liked Rodgers, even when he was a big joke on this caf post Liverpool.

Tbh for me it’s not as simple as being in a cup final. Spurs are in a cup final but no way are they further in their development than us. If we had played Brentford we would probably be in the final instead.
We beat Everton in the league cup and Liverpool in the FA Cup. It’s not like we lose against any decent side we play in the cups. Truth is that in England at least 1-2 sides are clearly better than us and most of the time we will lose to them as long as the gap remains.
Liverpool are in bad form, but they are not a bad side all of a sudden - which they are proving in the CL and (unfortunately) will probably go far again in the competition.

 

[VP89]

Tbh for me it’s not as simple as being in a cup final. Spurs are in a cup final but no way are they further in their development than us. If we had played Brentford we would probably be in the final instead.
We beat Everton in the league cup and Liverpool in the FA Cup. It’s not like we lose against any decent side we play in the cups. Truth is that in England at least 1-2 sides are clearly better than us and most of the time we will lose to them as long as the gap remains.
Liverpool are in bad form, but they are not a bad side all of a sudden - which they are proving in the CL and (unfortunately) will probably go far again in the competition.

It's not just about cup finals for me either.
It's about progressive patterns of play and not being stuck in a rut after a cycle of good form. It's about improving points per game whilst showing conviction in our play too. We had a strong period in winning games but all the neutrals rightly said, a lot of them were far from convincing. Now we are in a stage again where we aren't convincing and can't get the results of late either.

So he needs to pull that conviction out the bag now, there are less and less excuses to rely on at this stage.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Individually this RBL team is pretty average but they did cause Liverpool problems and were it not for 2 errors, the second one being hilariously bad, they'd be still in this tie. I do think he's overrated because he's so different, in reality he's essentially Bielsa (no bad thing) but with more variety but he's definitely got that RBL squad playing collectively above their individual levels so hats off so far.

 

[MrMarcello]

So, putting the obvious away (i.e. that United front office won't consider him anytime soon), where do y'all think he ends up?

Does he stick around RB for a couple more years or longer?
Does he eventually get poached by Bayern in the near future?
What about clubs on the continent - which ones would be looking this summer and into 2022 and would be a step up?
Would he prosper more so in England, Italy, or Spain?
Would a club like Barca or Juve make a bold move for a young manager with enormous potential?

 

[Adam-Utd]

His RBL team is pretty average to be honest in terms of personnel, no real household names but lots of good young talent - and he gets them playing well above their station.

They lost 2-0 thanks to 2 individual errors, not Liverpool out playing them. They were very close with Dani Olmo's header in the 1st half, could have been different.

They desperately miss Werner that's for sure.

 

[hasanejaz88]

So, putting the obvious away (i.e. that United front office won't consider him anytime soon), where do y'all think he ends up?

Does he stick around RB for a couple more years or longer?
Does he eventually get poached by Bayern in the near future?
What about clubs on the continent - which ones would be looking this summer and into 2022 and would be a step up?
Would he prosper more so in England, Italy, or Spain?
Would a club like Barca or Juve make a bold move for a young manager with enormous potential?

To answer your questions in my opinion:

Does he stick around RB for a couple more years or longer?
Depends on whether he gets offers from other teams. If nothing happens I'm sure he'll be happy to stay at RB till the end of his contract, he has financial support and the backing of the players. Within Germany the only team to attract him will be Bayern. Bayern are an interesting prospect because they've had their eyes on Nagelsmann since even before he took over at Hoffenheim and have always believed he will be their manager one day. The success of Flick meant that Nageslmann was not targetted for this summer and Bayern's form under Flick throws an interesting equation, do Bayern continue with Flick and losing Nagelsmann to another team or do they do with Flick what they did with Heynckes and let him go for a Pep like prospect.

Does he eventually get poached by Bayern in the near future?
Near future is a good question. Flick is enoying succes at Bayern but you can already see some kinks beginning to appear in his relationship with the board, particularly on transfers where Flick doesn't feel he is being supported. Bayern aren't in amazing form themselves and wouldn't be surprised if Lazio knock them out at this stage because of how weak they have been defensively. If Flick does see an embarassing exit from the UCL, even if they win the Bundesliga, Bayern may target Nagelsmann then.

Another interesting scenario I thought of is the Germany NT job, which might be available if Germany flop this summer in the Euros. I would think Flick would be the DFB's first candidate to replace Low given that he was an assistant for a long time and has intereacted with a lot of the current players, either for the NT or with Bayern right now. As a Germany fan, I would love for Flick to take over the Germany side after Low. If Flick wants to leave for Germany, the Bayern spot opens up.

What about clubs on the continent - which ones would be looking this summer and into 2022 and would be a step up?
Madrid are the biggest candidate given that they've already talked to him about taking over from Zidane with Zidane initially left in 2018. At that time Nagelsmann said he wasn't ready but that obviously means Madrid have an eye on him, don't know whether Zidane wants to leave again but if he does then you would imagine Nagelsmann is on their radar.

Would he prosper more so in England, Italy, or Spain?
Definitely not Italy, don't think his fast paced style suits them and if a big club would take a risk with that. It would need a large overhaul of players and tactics. England or Spain would be great, United espcially. There were rumours that he was first choice for Chelsea but given that he wasn't going to leave RB mid season, they have Tuchel a short term contract. England's face paced style would match what he wants from his players, you could say Pool would see a seamless transition from Klopp to him. United is perfect for him though, he'd love the culture and 'attack attack attack' philosophy of the club and show it on the pitch as well. Alas Ole is doing a good job so unlikely that we will replace him soon.

Would a club like Barca or Juve make a bold move for a young manager with enormous potential?
Barca are a good shout but with their older players you doubt no much they'l feed into his demands for pressing, sort of like when AvB went to Chelsea. Too many egos who may not like his style, similar to Juve.

 

[Blackwidow]

His RBL team is pretty average to be honest in terms of personnel, no real household names but lots of good young talent - and he gets them playing well above their station.

They lost 2-0 thanks to 2 individual errors, not Liverpool out playing them. They were very close with Dani Olmo's header in the 1st half, could have been different.

They desperately miss Werner that's for sure.

Werner until now is not the big game player - he only has 2 goals in 10 matches against Dortmund and 3 in 12 matches against Bayern.

 

[Jonno]

Has he?

Bit premature with that aren't we? I mean, Liverpool minus VVD have gone into absolute free fall, we haven't "gained on them" at all as I see it, and looking at our current course, there's every chance we might end the season on a similar points tally to last season with City finishing miles ahead above us.

With City's form, I'd gonna hazard a guess they finish the season on 89 points, with United on 70. There's every possibility we end the season behind Leicester and Chelsea. I fecking hope not, and I hope like hell Ole and the lads turn it around quickly, but let's not be ignorant to that possibility. I had the same argument with @Bastian a few weeks back when I claimed we may be heading into another run of poor form, and he was having none of it.

If we finish 4th on 70 points, we've gained nothing, we've thrown an entire season away; however if we get into form quickly again and show that this spell was just a blip, finishing on 76+ points, absolutely, that's improvement.

But that's all guesswork, let's see where we are at the end of the season, rather than make outlandish claims that we've gotten closer to anybody.

As we post this, we're 2nd in the league. I don't know why you're just outright guessing (glass half empty) where we'll finish. Did you guess last season we'd finish 5th by any chance? Happy to discuss at the end of the season. If we've gone backwards I'll happily change my view. But finishing 3rd last season, flirting with 1st and being 2nd this season, IS an improvement. Saying it's an outlandish claim that we've got closer to teams, when we're 2nd and Liverpool are 6th, with City top by a handful of points, is a little naive.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Werner until now is not the big game player - he only has 2 goals in 10 matches against Dortmund and 3 in 12 matches against Bayern.

He brings a lot more in terms of threat though. Playing Olmo or Nkunku up front? why bother. They needed somebody to stretch the high line of Liverpool.

 

[Marnsky68]

Not sure

Ole’s first full season finished 3rd, he’s currently 2nd 6 points clear of Liverpool, So you are correct we are not a mid table club and haven’t been under Ole, we did finish 7th, 6th and 5th under Moyes, Mourinho and Van Gaal though. This will be the first year we’ve had a manager who’s got us back to back CL spot finishes though if we finish top 4.

Before you say Ole finished 6th, he wasn’t in charge long enough to judge and before you say It’s not a big achievement to finish in the CL spots, I know just agreeing with you that “We’re not a mid table club ffs”

We are just good vibes FC all the players seem happy with Ole and this stems from his man management which I believe is his best trait. However, as a manager/coach he doesn't inspire me with any sort of confidence. You may be disregarding the effect good man managent has on players, but that alone is not enough. There is no system, our play is very predictable, pedestrian and mostly lethargic. There is no consistency in our play and it's the usual suspects that oftentimes bail us out, that I must admit is good but I feel our players can offer more. I can mention a few teams in the league -with no disrespect, far inferior players- that look well coached than we do. And yeah those two you mentioned were dead already anyways. You don't have to look far to see how Spurs is performing under Mourinho and as for LVG he is no longer in management, this should tell you a lot. By the way to each their own, Ole may be getting results but I still believe strongly we aren't going anywhere with Ole in charge. I suppose time will tell.

 

[Adnan]

He will replace Flick at Bayern for the 2021/2022 season IMO.

 

[Acrobat7]

He will replace Flick at Bayern for the 2021/2022 season IMO.

Only if he pushes hard for a move. Leipzig don’t need money and they would be hard pressed to find someone on a similar level.

 

[Hansi Fick]

If Flick indeed wants out (I can't actually believe it yet), I think we'll get ten Hag. Nagelsmann, later.

 

[Adnan]

Only if he pushes hard for a move. Leipzig don’t need money and they would be hard pressed to find someone on a similar level.

I think he might push to join Bayern, because in the past he's gone on record and said that he wants to Coach Bayern in the future, due to him being from the area.

 

[Hansi Fick]

I think he might push to join Bayern, because in the past he's gone on record and said that he wants to Coach Bayern in the future, due to him being from the area.

100% he will coach Bayern in the future. But seeing that he's 33 years old, it's a long future.

 

[Suedesi]

Is he taking over FC Bayern next year, or is that too early? Hearing Flick will resign and take over Germany in the summer after the Euros.

 

[Acrobat7]

Is he taking over FC Bayern next year, or is that too early? Hearing Flick will resign and take over Germany in the summer after the Euros.

Don’t listen to Lothar Matthäus.

 

[arthurka]

Nagelsmann had nowhere near enough authority to take over the drama factory at Säbener straße.

 

[Rektsanwalt]

Reports that Nagelsmann already talked to the RB board and expressed his desire to leave RB for Bayern next season. Interesting development and one still has to wait whether the DFB pays a transfer fee for Flick or how this mess folds out in the end. Chances are pretty high these clubs and involved persons will sort everything out and Flick will be national coach after Löw steps down in summer and that Nagelsmann will be Bayern's coach come next season.

 

[Judas]

I always thought he saw that as his end goal, or at least another stepping stone away, and now it looks like he'll do it before turning 35?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The stranglehold Bayern have on that league is a sight to behold, it’s as though the entire Bundesliga exist for no other reason than to support them.
Would be a very good move for him, interesting to see if he can get serial winning superstars to buy into his methods.