Julian Nagelsmann | Leipzig manager

Discussion in 'Football Forum' started by VP89, Nov 14, 2016.

  1. Oct 9, 2019

    edcunited1878 Full Member

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    So how did Mancini and Pellegrini win the PL with City then get binned off within a handful of years within each other?

    The saviour isn't a Russian roulette of managerial merry-go-round. It's a system that has to be aligned and functional from top to bottom independent of who the first team manager is.

    Was LVG and Jose not authoritative and respected figures who brought trophies to United? A clear vision, plan and execution isn't done in a year. It's done over a period of time, i.e. more than a few years, especially as it relates to United right now. Mancini and Pellegrini were recipients of a football brain trust formerly of Barcelona and a blank check....every single year. Then came Pep who elevated the team, which was already elevated to begin with.

    Nagelsmann or whoever can demand whatever they want, but it's already been shown that Woodward isn't afraid to renegade on his own words/actions. LVG 3 year contract, binned after year 2. Jose given a contract extension, binned shortly thereafter. United will not hired a full time manager until a director of football is hired, Ole given full time position and no director of football was hired.

    United have to be a self-sustaining football club where manager and player ins and outs do not cause a crater like crash in performance.

    I think it's extremely naive to say that one manager will come into town and turn everything around in short order at United. There must be long-term plan and vision that can sustain the ins and outs of managers, coaches and players, but that cannot start until you get the quality players and staff that allow you to grow and branch out from.
  2. Oct 9, 2019

    Sir Scott McToMinay New Member

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    Fair enough, but, we’ve had two world class coaches here, Van Gaal who took a shite Dutch side a few penalty kicks away from the WC final just a month or two before coming here, and there isn’t a huge difference between the WC and the CL, group stage and then knock outs, he couldn’t even get us out of a piss easy group in the CL.

    We’ve had Jose Mourinho, one of the finest managers of the modern era, losing to Seville in the first knock out round.
    We’ve had David Moyes with zero CL experience walk a CL group with Leverkusen, Shakhtar and Sociedad and giving a Pep managed Bayern a decent game at OT, sure, the team he managed had experience in the competition, but then he couldn’t cut in the league.

    By that point you would think we should realise there are no guarantees, none, therefore I don’t see Nagelsamnn as a bigger risk than appointing a “Allegri”.
    Nagelsmann beaten Dortmund and Bayern with Hoffenheim, he’s a highly talented coach.

    We need to realise that there are no shortcuts, sure, we can try and get Diego Simeone, who I think is the only coach out there who could make us compete pretty quickly, but at what cost though...

    I personally prefer someone who would continue that dreaded rebuild in a organic way towards a proactive team with a modern approach, but to each their own.
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2019
  3. Oct 9, 2019

    RooneyLegend Full Member

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    Those guys have been getting outdated by the year. Jose's only solution to Pep was to park the bus and Klopps Dortmund did a number on him despite him having far more resources. Van Gaal hasnt aged gracefully either, hence no one cued to get him after Bayern.

    Obviously its also important to understand the football we want at our club which would get rid of someone like Simeone, and maybe even Allegri. However in recent years we've seen the likes of Jardim and Ten Hag do wonders at that level while playing amazing football.
  4. Oct 9, 2019

    Sir Scott McToMinay New Member

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    Jardim had a ridiculously talented squad in 2017, he coached them well, but look at their side now, they’re shite.

    Also, Real Madrid and Jose were a mess by 2013.
  5. Oct 9, 2019

    Cee90 Redcafe Fantasy Football Champion 2012/13

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    In a good or a bad way?
  6. Oct 9, 2019

    Andersonson New Member

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    Just wait and see. Southgate would love to manage us and Ed would make yet another stupid move
  7. Oct 10, 2019

    amolbhatia50k Sneaky bum time

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    Southgate won't succeed Ole.
  8. Oct 10, 2019

    Caesar2290 New Member

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    I think Nageslmann is still raw. He needs a couple more seasons under his belt.

    I would gladly take Ten Hag ahead of him.

    Still, him and Rose are the managers I would definitely keep an eye on.
  9. Oct 10, 2019

    giorno Full Member

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    Pretty much. It's also the reason why Ferguson went for Moyes to replace him, 'cause Moyes was the only avilable "manager", who had experience working in the same structure(or lack thereof) that he would find at United
  10. Oct 10, 2019

    Adam-Utd Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid

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    Southgate would never throw a job he’s been working towards for 10 years in the bin, especially with euro 2020 coming up and the squad England have. It would be an awful decision.

    Plus he hasn’t been in club football for a long time, even our owners wouldn’t be that stupid.
  11. Oct 10, 2019

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    It's been an issue for us as a club in relation to these owners ever since Fergie left; they thought this is what football was like, and with Fergie at the helm, life was as easy as it could possibly be for them as he oversaw so much more than the coaches that were coming through at that time as the old-style, kingpin/godfather of the entire club type manager was already dying out.

    As you say, the intention has been (ever since) to have another old-school manager come in and do the exact same kingpin job, and even now, we're still desperately pining for one, and if we could find one, he'd be given the keys to the club in the exact same manner, nevermind all this 'new-fangled' DOF and structural malarky other clubs have brought in. We'd stay as old school as old school could be IF the right man could steer that proverbial ship.

    In some ways it's a bad thing (when the right man isn't apparent, hence all the unseating and completely divergent squad assemblage) and in others, it would be an absolute dream if some shining knight could come in and reinvigorate us whilst having complete control over all the components that make not just a team, but a club, special.
  12. Oct 10, 2019

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    What relevance do City, with a state-funded ambition, have to us? Football is a tool for their owners and was always supposed to be resplendent and praiseworthy - winning there may have been the initial ideal, but ultimately, they wanted far more than that, and when you have no restrictions other than the pesky FFP, that's reasonable. We are not, and never have been, in the same boat.

    That may or may not be so. There is no definitive answer to what is right or wrong because the right man(ager) can be just as impactful as the right structure. The latter is obviously the safer and perhaps smarter choice as it comes with numerous fail safes... although, having said that, bringing in one man who oversees an entire regeneration also, by proxy, deposits the same things, as, unless his entire backroom staff and all the methodology implemented is uprooted and removed, you have a structure right there the next man, or even a DOF can choose what to do with. Unfortunately for us, Moyes gutted what was a winning backroom staff, where other managers would have been much more pragmatic and organic in their movements post-Ferguson.
    The answer to both of those posers is no. LVG was not very good in the transfer market and his signings were flops. He also removed a number of senior players and then didn't deliver with the tools he had laid down for himself. That's a recipe for disaster. Mourinho was the most backed manager of all that have come here post-Fergie, it's only when he soured, and in-turn soured the club against him (backfire of epic magnitude) did funds and support get withdrawn. Woodward's failing there was re-signing the guy at the same time as having no confidence in him. Again, not a cunning piece of underhanded genius, just an incompetent guy in over his head on the footballing side of things.

    You mention a year, which doesn't correlate with either manager's path here; we saw what was happening over more than a year with both of them - ironic, then, that the first year for both is what actually had Woodward buy into what they were selling and allow them to go full steam ahead with their plans.

    And again, City are not a template for United, I don't know why you're meshing the clubs together or using their example as something for us to adhere or learn from. Given infinite funds and a board absolutely desperate to get to the top of the footballing world, I'm sure things would be wholly different here, but that's not our reality, so it's irrelevant.
    The pre-requisite is obviously delivering the bare minimum, which for LVG was CL qualification. Jose caused his own problems, like he always does. It should go without saying that for any manager, there is a bare bones requirement and if they fall below it, they have voided themselves and their rights/ideals are essentially forfeit as the club actively sacks them, or certainly thinks twice to what extent to back them. Ole's brief would not have been as far-reaching as either of those managers, but it certainly wouldn't be to have us within touching distance of relegation fodder, either.

    If anybody comes in and falls way short of expectation, of course they then become subject to scrutiny, interference, and very probably then get sacked.
    See first response.
    Has anyone spoken about anyone turning anything around in short order?
  13. Oct 10, 2019

    Nick7 Full Member

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    There should have been a “he” in front of that.

    I think he would be a great choice for our next manager, but I think he would be bonkers to take a job like us at this stage in his career.
  14. Oct 10, 2019

    Revaulx Full Member

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    I’m not so sure about this, at least as far as it applies to Ed.

    I get the impression he enjoys his role as quasi-Technical Director, and is also heavily influenced by what the press and social media are saying. The latest leaks about still believing that “our” strategy is the right one support this.

    I don’t see Nagelsmann being able to avoid the same issues LvG highlighted so well in that interview.
  15. Oct 10, 2019

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    Your second paragraph is what has me believe Woodward is desperate to be seen as the man who put the man who gets us back on top in there in the first place. Woodward strikes me as someone who does as he's told by those who are successful. You lose that chip with him and all bets are off, but whilst it's there, he will do any and everything asked of him (within his power) to keep that man on top (and by proxy, himself).

    Before I give anymore of my two-bit psycho-analysis, I will say, we've yet to see Ed with a successful manager - I do firmly believe he would be the dream yes-man under the right conditions who won't interfere and is eager to please and be praised.
  16. Oct 10, 2019

    Mark Pawelek Full Member

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    Suppose Nagelsmann puts his foot down and demands: either United also appoint a DoF with proper powers, or they allow him, the new manager, to do the job? DoF should entirely ignore the views of the press and social media about best footballers to get.
  17. Oct 10, 2019

    Revaulx Full Member

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    Now that's a really interesting way of looking at it.

    What is absolutely clear is that Ed lacks many of the qualities that you'd expect a merchant banker to possess (i.e. being a ruthless dispassionate bastard :devil:). Surrounding himself with his mates, being bothered by fan opinion and (I believe) being a pushover for agents aren't what you'd expect from an ex-PWC corporate finance type.

    Unfortunately I'm not convinced that he's totally lacking an ego. Being promoted beyond one's capability can do this sometimes; just look at Lukaku...

    If you're right it's about the only thing that can save us, so let's hope you are!
  18. Oct 10, 2019

    Revaulx Full Member

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    Well that would be great if he could get away with it.

    See @Fortitude's reply and my reply to that. He thinks Ed's waiting for someone capable to do just that; I'm not so sure.
  19. Oct 10, 2019

    OverratedOpinion Full Member

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    I get what you're saying but as someone who does not follow that league closely I am not sure what he has actually done to have people so excited, other than being very young. From what I can tell he took a side finishing 3rd or 4th whilst playing decent football and has kept them 3rd or 4th playing decent football.

    Again, I do not really follow the German league.
  20. Oct 10, 2019

    Borussin Full Member

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    He took over Hoffenheim, who are one of the leagues smallest teams (although they have a very rich backer), who where going through a bit of turmoil at the time. Huub Stevens had been their short term coach perviously,but won 1 of 10 games, when they replaced him with Nagelsmann. Prior to that they had taken a downturn under Markus Grisdol.

    Hoffenheim hadn't qualified for Europe previously, so much of the credit for that does go on Nagelsmann. Hoffenheim where (and are) a very average team, with a few nice players. He did a remarkable job there. So he did not take over a team finishing 3/4th - he got them to that point. He took over team who where battling relegation, and that'd been finishing more mid-table before that.

    But it's early days, we'll see what happens at Leipzig. They are a CL team, and had a really good season last year under Ralf Rangnick, so he's taking over a talented squad with expectations to do very well with them.

    He seems to have a very set plan on his carreer, and it'd make sense that he stays at Leipzig at least 2 or 3 seasons before taking the next step.
  21. Oct 10, 2019

    Mark Pawelek Full Member

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    He's obviously not going to phrase it like that and take an attitude. He'll most likely have a presentation prepared explaining why his way is the only way. He has the power to turn the job down. He will refuse to join a management team structured for failure.
  22. Oct 10, 2019

    Big Andy Is really a midget

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    I would take him as manager after Ole.
  23. Oct 10, 2019

    OverratedOpinion Full Member

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    I was referring to Leipzig.

    Those definitely sound like positive steps with Hoffenheim, sounds like he has achieved almost as much as Eddie Howe to date and I do not mean that as a knock in any way just that sometimes I suspect that if Eddie Howe had done what he had done anywhere other than England then United fans would be begging for him to sign.
  24. Oct 10, 2019

    tenpoless Full Member

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    Will He do the impossible with Lezipig?
  25. Oct 10, 2019

    HTG Full Member

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    He's been at Leipzig for a few months. I don't really understand what you think he could have achieved there until now.
    They are playing a great brand of attacking football, they are very versatile tactically and the team seems to like working with him. I think that's about as good as it gets in such a short time.
  26. Oct 10, 2019

    Borussin Full Member

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    gottcha!

    Time will tell at Leipzig of course. So far so good I would say, but the key will be if he can get them quite far in Europe. His 2 seasons in Europe with Hoffenheim was hard to judge, as they didn't really have the squad to compete on domestic and European fronts. But at Leipzig, he does, they have good depth there to cope far better.

    Leipzig have done well each season they have been in the league, so it's tougher for the improvments to be obvious I would say. Much of it should be more apparent later in the season.

    It's intriguing actually, as there is obviously a lot of hype about him, so this job at Leipzig puts him in a more high profile scenario, and it'll be interestng to watch how it goes.
  27. Oct 10, 2019

    Zehner Full Member

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    1. He took over from Rangnick who is an incredible coach himself. Flies a little bit under the radar because nowadays he prefers to be the director but tactically there are very few in the world who are more innovative than him. So yeah, you can't expect an immediate improvement.

    2. It's still early days. Nagelsmann always had the reputation of a prodigy and he lived up to it at Hoffenheim. The team got better every year. I think it'll take at least a season to really judge him. So again, don't expect an immediate improvement, that's not how it works. Give the guy time and I'm completely sure he'll deliver. Like Klopp, he makes teams overachieve. And now that he has top players at his disposal, sky's the limit.
  28. Oct 10, 2019

    Revaulx Full Member

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    I suppose all he really needs to do is point out that Ed's recently acquired love for Buy British is utterly unproven, and get him to notice the success another German is having at the other end of the East Lancs Road :)
  29. Oct 10, 2019

    Nick7 Full Member

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    Leipzig have played 7 league games under him and are 2 points off top?
  30. Oct 10, 2019

    OverratedOpinion Full Member

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    Which is exactly my point, I am not saying he has done anything wrong. Just that from my perspective he has not done enough outstanding things to be talked about as the next Man Utd let alone Real Madrid manager.

    It is much like when a 16 or 17 year old player does a couple of decent things and people become over excited and assume he is going to end up world class. He may end up being one of the best managers ever, there is nothing to say he won't be but there is also not much to say he will be.
  31. Oct 10, 2019

    OverratedOpinion Full Member

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    If we judged from the first seven games then Ole is the greatest Man Utd manager of all time.
  32. Oct 10, 2019

    OverratedOpinion Full Member

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    I fully agree that we need to give him time, all the best to him.

    Klopp makes teams over achieve. If this lad can develop a consistent track record of doing so then I hope Utd will be in for him at that stage!
  33. Oct 10, 2019

    Nick7 Full Member

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    You were the one judging him on 7 games by saying the following
    I'm pointing out the stupidity in that statement because he's only managed 7 games of a team that was "finishing 3rd or 4th" before he joined. Seems you agree with me.
  34. Oct 10, 2019

    roonster09 Correctly predicted France to win World Cup 2018 Scout

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    He is not judged on 7 games, he is judged on his career and how impressive it is.
  35. Oct 10, 2019

    OverratedOpinion Full Member

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    I think you are clearly missing the point I am making and potentially being intentionally obtuse.

    I was clearly asking what he is doing at Leipzig in a couple of months that is so revolutionary and groundbreaking that he is nailed on to be the next great coach.

    What you said might make sense if I had framed anything I was saying as a knock to what Nagelsmann actually has done. What I am saying is that to be the most sought after coach in world football you should be performing miracles. He hasn't done so yet, it is very fair to say that the reason is due to him not having sufficient time to do so obviously which is why the only sensible answer is to say "let's wait and see".

    People want great things to happen, so when they see the slightest spark of potential greatness from someone young they start to attribute a similar level of merit to that person as if they had already achieved it.

    Here comes the part that will sound like a knock, I don't believe what he did at Hoffenheim is enough for the level of excitement either. Lots of managers have taken small clubs with little pressure and gotten them to over perform.
  36. Oct 10, 2019

    edcunited1878 Full Member

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    City's relevancy is about their football structure, nothing to do with their political puppetry as a club. They got Barcas top football men and have allowed them to improve the squad and win the league with 3 different managers. In the past 10 years, we've all seen how their player recruitment and manager recruitment have gradually improved. That is the relevancy, that is the point. They haven't been and never will be entirely dependent on Pep. the personnel and strucutre around him is very sound and enables managers with good qualities/ideas to stay competitive while implementing said qualities and ideas.

    And I'll continue to stress that the "one" person who directs all football matters is truly never just one person. Are you familiar with how Dortmund structures their football staff? That is what i am always referring to and it's very clear that type of pulling one way is not present at United.

    Having one person to have this much influence on a massive club all while directing first team players, navigating the league, implementing ideas and still trying to get the necessary results is more efficient with a proper strucutre that spreads out the responsibilities.
  37. Oct 10, 2019

    Fortitude TV/Monitor Expert Scout

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    You can't mention City's structure without how much it cost in recruitment and implementation. You can't believe the Barca men who went there weren't given an exorbitant amount of money to do so, and with money being no object, everything that came after was always going to be elementary. You may reason we could mimic them, but I don't understand why you'd point to petro club irrespective of their success as that premium is not on the table for us.

    By the way, I don't necessarily disagree with a DOF, but I don't believe it is the only way to achieve, even in this modern age. The one-man who delegates is wrought with danger and complexities, but hiring Moyes, Van Gaal and Mourinho in succession is hardly a reflection or definitive statement the method cannot work.
  38. Oct 10, 2019

    RooneyLegend Full Member

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    Pretty sure you wouldn't put money on it, you do know who's in charge?
  39. Oct 10, 2019

    edcunited1878 Full Member

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    It's not about the dollars, it's about the approach. Finding people who are the best at doing what they can and letting them do their job without interference. That's the whole principal. Continually chopping and changing manager doesn't solve anything because there is no continuity between players or ideology of how to play football...it's all in a vacuum.

    I think you mentioned earlier re: Moyes that when he came in, he fired the entire backroom staff, which was the immediate brain trust that surrounded Fergie his last years at United. That was the biggest red flag that he could have done, but then Woodward allowed that to happen when of course there were discussions with Fergie and Woodward about how the transition would go. Now the backroom staff shouldn't all be responsible with player identification, player scouting, player analysis, player discussion, player tracking, player transfers, etc. They are there to develop, coach and prepare the first team players for matches 10+ months out of the year.
  40. Oct 10, 2019

    Suv666 Full Member

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    I