most of the top sides now in the Prem don't have those big old fashioned #9's like in the past so i think for the most part those days are long gone in the premier league
now you need more mobile and pacy CB's who are decent on the ball
Jurriën Timber | Arsenal player
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
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now you need more mobile and pacy CB's who are decent on the ball
Where would you see him being played
I'll hazard a guess you've not seen him play, nor have seen his absurd technical ability.
It's not a displaced, clumsy CB dumped wide; he's really good with his feet and along the deck.
It's also not actually all that great a measure of the importance of aerial ability for centre backs in my view. What's critical is not so much the number of long balls which take place in the average game but how difficult it is for centre backs to win aerial battles in each respective league.
Unfortunately, there's not really a huge pool of data to work with here as to come up with a meaningful comparison you'd probably want to be looking at the aerial win rates of centre backs who have recently played in both La Liga and the Premier League (of which there aren't a huge number). I'll admit it's not massively persuasive but if you look at our very own Raphael Varane, for example, his aerial win percentage last season playing for Real Madrid was 75.3% whereas this season playing for us it has dropped to 64.9%. This suggests that, at the very least in Varane's case, he's finding it significantly more difficult to win aerial duels in the Premier League than he was in La Liga.
Bottom line is that I definitely think there would be a concern with Timber in the air were he to play in a centre back pairing for us, and I say this as someone who wouldn't be averse to us signing him.
Most weeks we aren't going to be playing against the top sides in the Prem though so, again, aerially ability is still a factor worth considering when buying a centre-half.
Spurs have Harry Kane. Newcastle have Chris Wood. Wolves have Raul Jimenez. West Ham have Michail Antonio. Everton have Dominic Calvert-Lewin. Fulham coming up will have Aleksandr Mitrovic. Bournemouth will have Dominic Solanke. If Burnley survive, they will have both Wout Weghorst and Ashley Barnes. To top it off, Manchester City will have Erling Haaland. All of these strikers can cause problems in the air if your centre backs aren't aerially commanding.
These guys have been banging on about Timber for weeks as an exclusive. They usually just report on what others report so bit weird and no idea if they now have a source or just doing a Delaney and putting 2&2 together.
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I've only seen him play CB for Ajax and that's where i would play him....i just think it's foolish to overlook a player at CB b/c he's only 5'10 and insist on guys who are 6'2/6'3 at CB. The smaller guy might be better in every other aspect of football other than winning aerial duels and i'd much prefer to have the pace, quickness and ability on the ball. FFS...if it's an issue with crosses, push the damn outside backs why and stop the delivery. That's a much easier tactical fix than getting beat for pace or sturggling to build out of the back.
You don't particularly need stats to prove it. It's pretty obvious from watching the league that sides like Brighton, Norwich, Wolves, etc. are more representative of how lower/mid table sides generally play than the Burnley stereotype is.
You mention corners but the reality is that we already have the tallest and most aerially dominant team in the league, it just doesn't count for much in isolation. Not even in terms of set-pieces, where organisation and restricting the number of set-pieces you concede in the first place wins out comfortably.
That's how City, third smallest squad in the league and carrying a first choice CB in the bottom 28th percentile for aerial duels won, conceded the joint-fewest goals from corners this season. Rather than fetishising the height and aerial ability we already have, it might make sense for us to actually learn from what the best team in the league does. We're trying to move to a style more like theirs after all, not a style more like Burnley's.
i'll give you haaland as that is the one guy who initially came to mind just b/c he's a big physical kid...
Kane isn't a big commanding box presence in the air and Jimenez isn't really either...Antonio is only 5'11
Plus there are two CB's on the pitch so that can be dealt with as well. There is an art to playing CB if you're 5'10/5'11 in dealing with bigger guys in terms of positioning, anticipation, limiting their jump with actual contact.
All we know as well a guy like Timber might have good spring in his jump so it's not a massive height difference b/w 5'10 and 6'2 if the big turd has the vertical of a phone book
Again, though, nobody is arguing we should just go and sign some 6'7" lummocks who can't use his feet just because he's tall. People are just pointing out that, at 5'10", Timber would be notably small for a centre back playing in a pairing in the Premier League. I'm not saying it could never work but I think there are valid reasons to be concerned given the considerable pool of strikers in the league right now who can cause real problems in the air.
Further, City vs West Ham yesterday demonstrated that the concerns surrounding aerial ability in a centre back do not start and end with set pieces. City really struggled to deal with West Ham's out-ball because Antonio was able to win knockdowns and flick-ons quite consistently against Fernandinho.
I'm not even opposed to signing Timber but I find it quite facile to assume that aerial ability isn't going to be an issue for our centre backs because Ten Hag is going to have us playing "proper football".
Oh yeah we are absolutely right to have concerns
Again though, the issue isn't just about defending in the box. I keep referring back to it but West Ham showed against City that an ability to win flick-ons when the ball is played over an aggressive press can be a real boon for sides playing against a high-line. Antonio, despite being 5'11", is really strong presence in the air because he is extremely strong and has a great jump.
agreed...which also can reinforce what i stated and size of the player isn't the concern if he has a great jump which yes Antonio does. There are situations you can't always account for no matter the size or lack of size of a positional player which means the reaction takes priority
i'd rather have a guy with pace and who's good on the ball over a big donkey who can just win headers and can't pass worth a shit ....hell just pair Timber with a bigger CB or sadly we couldn't find another Vidic
To back up what I'm saying a bit regarding Timber, his aerial win percentage this season for Ajax is around 60%. This is actually marginally below Lindelof, who a lot of people have argued is too easily bossed. This isn't necessarily to say he has a problem with positioning or athleticism (from what little I've seen I think he's actually quite good in both departments); it's just that he's at an inherent disadvantage because he's relatively small.
At this stage of his career and from the games I've seen, I do think that physicality could be a big problem for him in the PL.
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Aerial ability will always be a factor and pointing that out is fine, but its importance relative to other aspects of defending is massively exaggerated by some on here. It still makes up just a fraction of the overall game for defenders, even in the supposedly oh-so physical premier league. Meanwhile City are the actual best defence in the league without being particularly tall or without their own weaknesses aerially, precisely because of the way they play.
And if our defence improves next season it is indeed likely to be because ETH gets us playing "proper" football that suffocates chances, because aside from that being how City function that's also how his Ajax team with its two short centre-backs functions. You could also draw a comparison to the LVG era, which was statistically our strongest period defensively post-SAF despite involving another aerially suspect CB in Blind.
You mention Fernandinho versus West Ham but the prime issue there is that Fernandinho isn't a centre-back, not that he isn't aerially dominant enough. If that aerial ability dynamic was a massive issue for City in this league generally then they wouldn't be about to win the title having carried Dias and his 59.6% aerial duel win rate this season.
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Yep and I haven’t said that they can’t. Far from it! All I said was a players ability should always outweigh what height they are. It’s what they should be judged upon. Not the other way around.
For instance Liverpool didn’t break their transfer record to sign VVD because he was over 6ft. They signed him because of his ability and the potential he had. Their was weaknesses in his game but Klopp knew what he needed to do to iron those out and and develop him
into an even better player than the one they bought from Southampton.
Again, ETH will know a lot more about Jurriën Timber than me, you and anyone else on here
and if he thinks he can make the step-up then he has my full support. He obviously sees something in him hence why he wants to bring him with him from Ajax. He’s a young lad who will have weaknesses in his game and it’s a big step-up but if ETH thinks that those weaknesses can be ironed out and he’s capable of stepping up of playing for a club of this size & magnitude then again, he’s got my full support.
I think PL physicality is a thing of the past and is brought up almost traditionally now... The league is just as "weak" as others due to the way the game is now with everything from a nudge to a fart blown up for a foul.
Don’t get me wrong if we sign him, I’ll be really excited for all the positives in his game but it just strikes me that there’s a >0 possibility that people in the CAF are b*tching about how our scouting team didn’t notice that our new defender whose getting peppered by crosses was under 6ft or that our struggling right back was signed even though he hasn’t played regularly at right back since his youth days. Seems like a lot of risk even if admittedly his potential upside is enormous and transformational for our defence.
Wow. For once I'd happily be wrong.
Blind is 1.8m and Timber is 1.79m. There is not much difference in height and Blind didn't struggle playing as a CB and players like Lukaku didn't even dominate him.
Timber has pace and physicality which Blind didn't have. I am sure he will be fine.
I remember Evra was winning headers against tall players with ease. It's all leap and able to judge the ball when attacking it in the air.
Timber has pace and physicality which Blind didn't have. I am sure he will be fine.
I remember Evra was winning headers against tall players with ease. It's all leap and able to judge the ball when attacking it in the air.
People say about being big to head balls, when quite often it is timing.
We're not really in the era of Stoke any more in the PL
Almost all sides want to play the style of football that City do even down the bottom of the table. I really don't think his height would be an issue
Almost all sides want to play the style of football that City do even down the bottom of the table. I really don't think his height would be an issue
While that is often true, a bigger heavier player at a corner will lean all over them and stop them jumping.
It's a fair worry to have in the premier league, but you just have to ask will his positives outweigh the downsides.
Tbh I think to start with ETH is gonna play him right back.
Yeah last few games I saw from him had some big mistakes. I'm not completely sold on him as a CB.
This is what I saw when I watched Ajax recently, they lean over Timber and stop him jumping during set pieces. Although, during open play, he was fine winning the header since he was being aggressive and charging towards the ball from behind of the opposition players.
Has he ever played DM for Ajax and if so how did he get on?
United's defence makes this many mistakes over 90 minutes. The mistakes shown probably are over a few seasons. Obviously, he's only 20 and learning. To be fair, I had never heard of him until lately.
All this debate about whether he is tall enough to play CB when he’s going to predominantly play RB 
Yeah, but we allegedly bought Sancho for RW…..All this debate about whether he is tall enough to play CB when he’s going to predominantly play RB
I don’t think Timber can play LW. We’re fine!
Only we would buy a centre half who has no real pedigree when it comes to crossing the ball and play him at right back.
I’m amazed (not really) that folk seem to be on board with this idea. Christ.
I’m amazed (not really) that folk seem to be on board with this idea. Christ.
Can we move onto the press-resistance phase yet?
Thats my favourite bit
Thats my favourite bit
I actually think he's taller than his stats say. He's not huge obviously but he must be 5'11 - 6' from pictures with other players. He's 20 and the stat sites are always wrong for youngsters.
A few sites list him at 182cm which fits your estimate.
Yeah i saw Transfermarkt had him at 6'. I think what we're seeing is some sites update their player bio's more often than others. Height wont change for most players but for youngsters if you dont update height every year then you'll get some crazy discrepencies.
Crossing must be the most overrated ability on here. I heard how great Telles was at crossing before he came, in reality he's absolutely terrible at all aspects of being a full back in the PL.
It depends how the full backs are used under Ten Hag. Could he be a Kyle Walker for example who doesn't spend games spamming crosses like TAA but he's vital to City's game defensively.
I doubt there's anything in it myself, just the usual linking us to every Ajax player.
It’s quite literally one of the most potent attributes a player can have.
Your Telles example is daft. Telles isn’t very good because he isn’t very good at a whole host of other things associated with playing at full back. His biggest issue is athleticism by far.
Alexander-Arnold and Robertson are perfect examples of what fantastic full backs can do for a team. Of course we should look to add that to this team.
What we need at right back first of all is a footballer (AWB and Dalot are pale imitations). Having a good cross would be a bonus. Mazraoui and Blind average around 1 successful cross every 2 games according to whoscored so it's not that Ten Hag's recent side relies on it.
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