Kai Havertz | Chelsea player

GameOn

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Wow, as if Müller never had slapstick performances in his life. We're speaking of Thomas fecking Müller, probably THE top player of the last 15 years that had fans scratching their heads, thinking how a player on this level can be so bad at many technical disciplines the most. I mean, you blatantly ignore the circumstances (new team, no automatisms, 5 days of training, new country, new league, pressure, played out of position) to support your agenda. The fact that you consider yourself "objective" is even more laughable than Havertz' performance yesterday. But go ahead, keep telling yourself Müller is an unbenchable top 10 player in the world.

I mean, no problem with people being overly critical of him, like many have been in this thread - after all he'll have to deal with it given his fee -, but pretending you're objective? Sweet jesus.
I'm sorry, if I hurt your feelings. I won't mention Müller again, his name and his success seems to trigger something inside you ...

As for being objective: Yes, I for one am objective. Literally everything I said is the cold, hard reality:

1) Havertz is still far away from being a world class player (has the potential to turn into one though).
2) His lack of physicality could prove to be a real problem in the Premier League.
3) Bayern didn't really get serious with him, because of the reasons that were mentioned (which Flick, KHR and even Holzhäuser confirmed).

I understand that some fans - especially Leverkusen and Chelsea fans - don't want to hear it and get defensive, but whatever.
Nothing I can do about that.
 

cyberman

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Yes he is slim build but that's not neccessarily a bad thing. I know it sounds like a lazy comparison but he is very similar to Ozil in that he's a creative attacking mid who can play from the right. He's a better goal scorer than Ozil. But in modern football it's not a neccessity to be bulked up and be successful. Look at David Silva who went on to be one of the best ever.
Silva has low centre of gravity though. Short players can get away with it, its the taller, skinnier players that have the problems.
He can adapt, of course he can, but we have seen with Jorginho what being lightweight in this league is worth.
All he has to do is get to the gym. Its hard to physically protect the ball in an EPL midfield. You either lose it or get fouled if you arent up to it
 

Chief123

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Silva has low centre of gravity though. Short players can get away with it, its the taller, skinnier players that have the problems.
He can adapt, of course he can, but we have seen with Jorginho what being lightweight in this league is worth.
All he has to do is get to the gym. Its hard to physically protect the ball in an EPL midfield. You either lose it or get fouled if you arent up to it
I'm sure he'll bulk up as he's young. Greenwood was very skinny when he broke through as well. He has bulked a little since then but would still need to develop and become stronger if he's to be our main striker in the future. Building physically is easy to do. Having the talent is the hard part. Of course as a Utd fan I'd love to see Havertz flop. I just don't see it happening at the moment.
 

amolbhatia50k

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I think a lot here are delighted at his poor debut in order to get some comfort that he will potentially be a flop signing.
Nobody wants our rivals to have a great player, that goes without saying. But calling out his debut for being what it was - woeful - is completely fine, and there's no need to attribute more to it than that as some are doing.
 

Zehner

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I'm sorry, if I hurt your feelings. I won't mention Müller again, his name and his success seems to trigger something inside you ...

As for being objective: Yes, I for one am objective. Literally everything I said is the cold, hard reality:

1) Havertz is still far away from being a world class player (has the potential to turn into one though).
2) His lack of physicality could prove to be a real problem in the Premier League.
3) Bayern didn't really get serious with him, because of the reasons that were mentioned (which Flick, KHR and even Holzhäuser confirmed).

I understand that some fans - especially Leverkusen and Chelsea fans - don't want to hear it and get defensive, but whatever.
Nothing I can do about that.
1) What does that even mean? If Havertz shows the performances he displayed in his last two seasons for Leverkusen at Chelsea, he will be considered a world class player. The guy scored 30 goals in two seasons primarily being played as a CM ffs. The reason he isn't considered a world class player is that he has yet to prove it at a top club. On the other hand, I'm absolutely confident that Müller would've been a worse player for Leverkusen since he's not capable of all the things Havertz provided on top of his goal scoring. For all his end product, Müller is a very limited footballer.

2) If he fails - which is still completely possible, there are even greater talents than him that vanished - then it is not because of his lack of physicality. Ask David Silva, Özil and so forth.

3) Of course. Had nothing to do with the price tag or the player wanting to play for a foreign club.

I actually built up some sympathies for Bayern after the great performance in the CL final but damn, I forgot how unbearable their fans can be.
 

GameOn

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1) What does that even mean? If Havertz shows the performances he displayed in his last two seasons for Leverkusen at Chelsea, he will be considered a world class player. The guy scored 30 goals in two seasons primarily being played as a CM ffs. The reason he isn't considered a world class player is that he has yet to prove it at a top club. On the other hand, I'm absolutely confident that Müller would've been a worse player for Leverkusen since he's not capable of all the things Havertz provided on top of his goal scoring. For all his end product, Müller is a very limited footballer.

2) If he fails - which is still completely possible, there are even greater talents than him that vanished - then it is not because of his lack of physicality. Ask David Silva, Özil and so forth.

3) Of course. Had nothing to do with the price tag or the player wanting to play for a foreign club.

I actually built up some sympathies for Bayern after the great performance in the CL final but damn, I forgot how unbearable their fans can be.
Sigh, again having to bring up Müller. I really don't know what's your obsession with him. Especially your completely wrong assessment concerning his abilities.

As for me being a "Bayern fan". No, I simply admire some of their players (Neuer, Müller, Lewandowski), I like the way they're doing business and I'm interested in German football in general.
 

Zehner

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Sigh, again having to bring up Müller. I really don't know what's your obsession with him. Especially your completely wrong assessment concerning his abilities.

As for me being a "Bayern fan". No, I simply admire some of their players (Neuer, Müller, Lewandowski), I like the way they're doing business and I'm interested in German football in general.
What is wrong with you? You brought Müller up again but I'm obsessed with him because I respond to it?

I'm watching Müller play since 12 years, I think my assessment is pretty accurate, thanks, whereas not even he himself would agree with your assessment of him.
 

Cheimoon

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Sigh, again having to bring up Müller. I really don't know what's your obsession with him. Especially your completely wrong assessment concerning his abilities.

As for me being a "Bayern fan". No, I simply admire some of their players (Neuer, Müller, Lewandowski), I like the way they're doing business and I'm interested in German football in general.
I'll just point out that you're the one who brought up Müller and Bayern in your assessment of Havertz's performance yesterday and leave it at that.
 

GameOn

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What is wrong with you? You brought Müller up again but I'm obsessed with him because I respond to it?

I'm watching Müller play since 12 years, I think my assessment is pretty accurate, thanks, whereas not even he himself would agree with your assessment of him.
I simply reemphasized my original opinion (see the last pages of this thread), which was supported by yesterday's game, whether you like it or not.

The only mentioning of Müller's name was, when I once again explained that Bayern didn't really go after Havertz, since he would've sat on the bench. Most people, who watched him for the first time yesterday, get this now. Even your former chairman said this much, as did Flick & Co. The original post in no way started a discussion about Müller.

Yet you somehow felt the need to write a full excerpt of nonsense ("he's so bad techically", "Havertz is so much better" etc.) once again.

As for that "assessment" of yours: Just look at the opinions of players and coaches, who actually worked with him (Heynckes, Robben etc.), that should do it.

Müller himself once said "I can say of myself that I have good technique, but dribbling is not really my forte." Dribbling and the "flashiness" on the pitch are the only two things where Müller is lacking, you're just mistaking "not a good dribbler" and "doesn't look elegant" with "he has bad technique" again and again.

I'll just point out that you're the one who brought up Müller and Bayern in your assessment of Havertz's performance yesterday and leave it at that.
See above.
 

Zehner

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I simply outlined all my points. The only mentioning of Müller's name was, when I once again explained that Bayern didn't really go after Havertz, since he would've sat on the bench. Even your former chairman said this much, as did Flick & Co. The original post in no way started a discussion about Müller.

Yet you somehow felt the need to write a full excerpt of nonsense ("he's so bad techically", "Havertz is so much better" etc.) once again.

As for that "assessment" of yours: Just look at the opinions of players and coaches, who actually worked with him (Heynckes, Robben etc.), that should do it.

Müller himself once said "I can say of myself that I have good technique, but dribbling is not really my forte." Dribbling and the "flashiness" on the pitch are the only two things where Müller is lacking, you're just mistaking "not a good dribbler" and "doesn't look elegant" with "he has bad technique" again and again.


See above.
Man. You brought up the topic again that Bayern didn't want Havertz because he wouldn't start ahead of Müller, not me. You also put in a side dig against me ("objective watchers yada yada") and in your response you claimed you wouldn't mention him again just to highlight the exact same discussion again only a few lines later (" 3) Bayern didn't really get serious with him, because of the reasons that were mentioned (which Flick, KHR and even Holzhäuser confirmed). "). So again, what's wrong with you? Is that some sort of weird tactic to make the other person seem biased against a player you like?

I also never said "Havertz is so much better". What I said was that it's by no means a given that Müller would bench him. Period. That being said Müller is not a good technician by the standard we're comparing him with. He's got a decent first touch, he's a decent passer and a bad dribbler. And no, I'm not mistaken flashiness with good technique. I've seen countless games in which Müller displayed atrocious ball control and lost so many balls without need. Müller was downright painful to watch for a sustained period of time for the national team, screwing up the easiest touches and passes, and he also did not really do anything special for Bayern in that time either. The fact that he's now back to his best under Flick is great, it really is because he's a very likable person, but it doesn't change the fact that he has a very low bottom level - especially in terms of technique. One and a half years ago at most, a large proportion of Bayern fans wanted him gone rather sooner than later.

That's what I mean with "Müller is great in a functioning team" but we've never seen Havertz play in a similarly well drilled squad. While Müller is surrounded by Thiago, Kimmich, Gnabry, Lewandowski, Davies and Coman, Havertz had to play with Bellarabi, Amiri, Volland, Diaby and Demirbay throughout last season. He was double marked constantly because he was by far our most dangerous player - Müller never had to deal with that. Not once. The fact that you're ignoring all that exposes that you're anything but objective. If you really had watched Havertz play as closely as you suggest, you would've realized that he combines many aspects of Müller's game (off the ball movement, keeping things simply, timing etc.) with (albeit sometimes still inconsistent) technical brillance.
 

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Judging by the first few pages, this is going to be a very weird thread this season.
 

romufc

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I think if you play him in a wide(-ish) role he's bound to look mediocre, as he needs players around him to make up for his lack of pace and dribbling. So looking at the way Chelsea lined up yesterday it wasn't a surprise to see him disappoint. Though to be fair that pass to the linesman indeed looked like a case of nerves. I probably said it before, but I was a bit surprised that Chelsea went for both Werner and Havertz, because their best roles, are basically mutually exclusive with each other, as either want to play behind/around a "proper" no9.
Ermmmm he played RW for Leverkusen as well last season. He can play in a variety of positions. He may not have pace, but he is actually a very good dribbler too. I am not sure where you are getting this from?
 

TheMagicFoolBus

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Ermmmm he played RW for Leverkusen as well last season. He can play in a variety of positions. He may not have pace, but he is actually a very good dribbler too. I am not sure where you are getting this from?
https://www.bayer04.de/en-us/news/bayer04/kai-havertz-a-season-full-of-records

Relevant bit being this:
With a top speed of 35.02 km/h, Havertz was the fastest midfielder in the league last season. That phenomenal value was recorded on matchday one in the duel with Borussia Mönchengladbach that ended in a 2-0 defeat for the Werkself.

Don't think his acceleration is the best, mind.
 

ThatsGreat

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https://www.bayer04.de/en-us/news/bayer04/kai-havertz-a-season-full-of-records

Relevant bit being this:
With a top speed of 35.02 km/h, Havertz was the fastest midfielder in the league last season. That phenomenal value was recorded on matchday one in the duel with Borussia Mönchengladbach that ended in a 2-0 defeat for the Werkself.

Don't think his acceleration is the best, mind.
He's really slight, a strong gust of wind probably added about 5km/h of that speed.
 

romufc

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https://www.bayer04.de/en-us/news/bayer04/kai-havertz-a-season-full-of-records

Relevant bit being this:
With a top speed of 35.02 km/h, Havertz was the fastest midfielder in the league last season. That phenomenal value was recorded on matchday one in the duel with Borussia Mönchengladbach that ended in a 2-0 defeat for the Werkself.

Don't think his acceleration is the best, mind.
Hence the he may not.. people are quick to criticise a player they have never watched play.

Has a player never had a bad day? I have seen KDB mis place passes, VVD make mistakes.
 

Zehner

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Ermmmm he played RW for Leverkusen as well last season. He can play in a variety of positions. He may not have pace, but he is actually a very good dribbler too. I am not sure where you are getting this from?
He never really played RW for us. His "appearances" there had primarily to do with the media not realizing we were playing a 3-6-1 rather than a 4-2-3-1. He's a central player, can't really play on the wing.
 

GameOn

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Man. You brought up the topic again that Bayern didn't want Havertz because he wouldn't start ahead of Müller, not me. You also put in a side dig against me ("objective watchers yada yada") and in your response you claimed you wouldn't mention him again just to highlight the exact same discussion again only a few lines later (" 3) Bayern didn't really get serious with him, because of the reasons that were mentioned (which Flick, KHR and even Holzhäuser confirmed). "). So again, what's wrong with you? Is that some sort of weird tactic to make the other person seem biased against a player you like?

I also never said "Havertz is so much better". What I said was that it's by no means a given that Müller would bench him. Period. That being said Müller is not a good technician by the standard we're comparing him with. He's got a decent first touch, he's a decent passer and a bad dribbler. And no, I'm not mistaken flashiness with good technique. I've seen countless games in which Müller displayed atrocious ball control and lost so many balls without need. Müller was downright painful to watch for a sustained period of time for the national team, screwing up the easiest touches and passes, and he also did not really do anything special for Bayern in that time either. The fact that he's now back to his best under Flick is great, it really is because he's a very likable person, but it doesn't change the fact that he has a very low bottom level - especially in terms of technique. One and a half years ago at most, a large proportion of Bayern fans wanted him gone rather sooner than later.

That's what I mean with "Müller is great in a functioning team" but we've never seen Havertz play in a similarly well drilled squad. While Müller is surrounded by Thiago, Kimmich, Gnabry, Lewandowski, Davies and Coman, Havertz had to play with Bellarabi, Amiri, Volland, Diaby and Demirbay throughout last season. He was double marked constantly because he was by far our most dangerous player - Müller never had to deal with that. Not once. The fact that you're ignoring all that exposes that you're anything but objective. If you really had watched Havertz play as closely as you suggest, you would've realized that he combines many aspects of Müller's game (off the ball movement, keeping things simply, timing etc.) with (albeit sometimes still inconsistent) technical brillance.
I did bring up the fact that one of the reasons Bayern didn't want to pay that much money for him was because he simply wouldn't bench current Müller at this stage of his career.

An in-form Coutinho wasn't even able to do that.

Everyone can have a bad day, yes, but yesterday everyone saw that Havertz still has a long way to go. His issues went beyond 'just being new'.

I watched him very closely last season and imho your assessment of him is just way too rosy.

I even presented you all the kicker grades from last season. The eye test actually supported all those (mediocre) grades.

He is very talented, but simply not a worldclass player yet. He wasn't at that level his last two seasons either.

Anyway, I'm done here (post limit is reached).
 

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https://www.bayer04.de/en-us/news/bayer04/kai-havertz-a-season-full-of-records

Relevant bit being this:
With a top speed of 35.02 km/h, Havertz was the fastest midfielder in the league last season. That phenomenal value was recorded on matchday one in the duel with Borussia Mönchengladbach that ended in a 2-0 defeat for the Werkself.

Don't think his acceleration is the best, mind.
I am always amazed by these speed stats because they always seem to be upped for certain players and reduced for others. Without a doubt this player is neither quick in acceleration or top speed and is one of the slighest players I have seen in this league, makes Ozil look like a gold's gym ambassador.
 

do.ob

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Ermmmm he played RW for Leverkusen as well last season. He can play in a variety of positions. He may not have pace, but he is actually a very good dribbler too. I am not sure where you are getting this from?
You can probably count the number of games he actually played like a RW last season on one hand. No matter where he's put down on the formation sheet he's basically always playing in the half spaces or center.
Flat out calling him a very good dribbler is debatable at the very least. He's decent when he gets to run at someone or when he's in a packed midfield situation where a clever first touch and turn can be enough to outwit a pressing player, but in the typical dribbling situation of a modern winger like having to go 1v1 or 1v2 in isolation, having to start a dribbling without tempo (you know: the space creating dribblings, that unravel a defense) there he's not particularly effective.

To throw some stats at you: looking at least season's Bundesliga numbers he had 6th most attempted dribbles, but 2nd most failed dribblings per 90. And that's just looking at the Leverkusen squad. Diaby, Bellarabi, Bailey and perhaps Wirtz are/were Leverkusen's wide midfielders.

I am always amazed by these speed stats because they always seem to be upped for certain players and reduced for others. Without a doubt this player is neither quick in acceleration or top speed and is one of the slighest players I have seen in this league, makes Ozil look like a gold's gym ambassador.
That's because they only measure top speed. Something that is almost completely irrelevant in most situations. Like who gives a feck if you're 2km/h faster than your opponent after 10 meters of sprinting, when acceleration already put him a step or two ahead of you on the first meters.
 
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I am always amazed by these speed stats because they always seem to be upped for certain players and reduced for others. Without a doubt this player is neither quick in acceleration or top speed and is one of the slighest players I have seen in this league, makes Ozil look like a gold's gym ambassador.
Kai Havertz BMI: 23.0
Mason Greenwood BMI: 21.4
Marcus Rashford BMI: 21.6
 

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I am always amazed by these speed stats because they always seem to be upped for certain players and reduced for others. Without a doubt this player is neither quick in acceleration or top speed and is one of the slighest players I have seen in this league, makes Ozil look like a gold's gym ambassador.
Aren't they all done through video too? It's not like they have monitor's on all of them. Plus it's only mentioning top speed. But yeah I never trust those stats
 

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I did bring up the fact that one of the reasons Bayern didn't want to pay that much money for him was because he simply wouldn't bench current Müller at this stage of his career.

An in-form Coutinho wasn't even able to do that.

Everyone can have a bad day, yes, but yesterday everyone saw that Havertz still has a long way to go. His issues went beyond 'just being new'.

I watched him very closely last season and imho your assessment of him is just way too rosy.

I even presented you all the kicker grades from last season. The eye test actually supported all those (mediocre) grades.

He is very talented, but simply not a worldclass player yet. He wasn't at that level his last two seasons either.

Anyway, I'm done here (post limit is reached).
I'm sorry but this discussion is pointless. You're just repeating arguments which have already been answered. And it's not like they're particularly good ones either - kicker grades? Come on. There's a reason nobody takes those seriously. They're also amplified by playing for a big club in multiple aspects - first because a great team amplifies your individual performances and second because clubs like Bayern and Dortmund have a much bigger lobby at magazines like the kicker.

Müller is a good player, no doubt, but ask him to do Havertz' job for us and he'll struggle. Suggesting anything else is different when you've really seen him play. He can play the very unique role he occupies at Bayern because he's got the luxury to play alongside technically excellent players that can compensate his shortcomings.


You can probably count the number of games he actually played like a RW last season on one hand. No matter where he's put down on the formation sheet he's basically always playing in the half spaces or center.
Flat out calling him a very good dribbler is debatable at the very least. He's decent when he gets to run at someone or when he's in a packed midfield situation where a clever first touch and turn can be enough to outwit a pressing player, but in the typical dribbling situation of a modern winger like having to go 1v1 or 1v2 in isolation, having to start a dribbling without tempo (you know: the space creating dribblings, that unravel a defense) there he's not particularly effective.

To throw some stats at you: looking at least season's Bundesliga numbers he had 6th most attempted dribbles, but 2nd most failed dribblings per 90. And that's just looking at the Leverkusen squad. Diaby, Bellarabi, Bailey and perhaps Wirtz are/were Leverkusen's wide midfielders.



That's because they only measure top speed. Something that is almost completely irrelevant in most situations. Like who gives a feck if you're 2km/h faster than your opponent after 10 meters of sprinting, when acceleration already put him a step or two ahead of you on the first meters.
That's on point. He's not an especially good dribbler, especially not from static situations. He's great when he receives the ball while running but nothing special if he has to do it while standing. Neither is he one of those players that dribbles with many twists, turns and stops. Usually he beats opponent's by playing out his technique, utilizing empty space etc. He can also relieve himself from pressure or occasionally nutmegs an opponent but that's about it. His top speed is great and helps him when running behind the defensive lines but that's pretty much the only way he can really make use of it which is why few people really know he's actually fast. His strengths are definitely in other areas which is why he was never really used as a RW for us, bar his first games as a 17 year old.
 

izec

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First game shocker, but it is only one game. Next year this time, i expect him to be different class
 

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https://www.bayer04.de/en-us/news/bayer04/kai-havertz-a-season-full-of-records

Relevant bit being this:
With a top speed of 35.02 km/h, Havertz was the fastest midfielder in the league last season. That phenomenal value was recorded on matchday one in the duel with Borussia Mönchengladbach that ended in a 2-0 defeat for the Werkself.

Don't think his acceleration is the best, mind.
Although I believe Havertz is a great player, pace and acceleration are certainly not his strengths. Stats like this are absolute nonsense. Any person just looking with the naked eye can see this. The likes of Kingsley Coman would smoke Havertz for pace. Even Haaland at top speed would leave Havertz for dead.
 

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The more I watch it, the more I keep thinking he actually thought the linesman was one of his players. If that was the case, thats an absolutely brilliant cross field pass to him!
Leverkusen played in black and red. Momentary Flashback? T
 

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Although I believe Havertz is a great player, pace and acceleration are certainly not his strengths. Stats like this are absolute nonsense. Any person just looking with the naked eye can see this. The likes of Kingsley Coman would smoke Havertz for pace. Even Haaland at top speed would leave Havertz for dead.
Well, Haaland isn't a great example because he's literally one of the fastest players in the world.

I agree that Havertz's acceleration isn't the best, but it's equally obvious that once he's at top speed he's rapid. The extent to which this matters in a footballing context is unclear, but it seems incorrect to say he lacks pace.
 

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Mental how under rated Muller seems to be
Its more mental how short peoples memories are.
Bayern were a mess until flick took over.
Not too long ago neuer and muller wete considered past it.
I remember muller being linked to Man Utd a few seasons ago and the majority were like no thanks hes past it.
Yes they had a phenomenal end to the season and in general since flick took over but lets not re write history.
 

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Well, Haaland isn't a great example because he's literally one of the fastest players in the world.

I agree that Havertz's acceleration isn't the best, but it's equally obvious that once he's at top speed he's rapid. The extent to which this matters in a footballing context is unclear, but it seems incorrect to say he lacks pace.
I’ve watched quite a bit of Havertz mate and he is absolutely not rapid. We must be watching two totally different players.
 

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The only reason I can see for this is that he had placed a bet on overs at throw-ins.
After watching it so many times I’m trying to understand what he actually intended. His body action and striking of the ball doesn’t suggest he was aiming for the centre back or the left back! Feck knows what he was trying. Maybe he just wanted to kick the ball out so he could get subbed off.
 

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After watching it so many times I’m trying to understand what he actually intended. His body action and striking of the ball doesn’t suggest he was aiming for the centre back or the left back! Feck knows what he was trying. Maybe he just wanted to kick the ball out so he could get subbed off.
I think the idea was the left back, because you can see his leg continuing the movement long after the ball were gone. He wanted to curl it, but sliced the ball and the curve went backwards.
 

Chief123

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I think the idea was the left back, because you can see his leg continuing the movement long after the ball were gone. He wanted to curl it, but sliced the ball and the curve went backwards.
Yeah it has to be the left back based on the power he put on it. If it was any other game it would have gone unnoticed. But it was his bad luck it was on his microscopic debut.
 

Bwuk

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Its more mental how short peoples memories are.
Bayern were a mess until flick took over.
Not too long ago neuer and muller wete considered past it.
I remember muller being linked to Man Utd a few seasons ago and the majority were like no thanks hes past it.
Yes they had a phenomenal end to the season and in general since flick took over but lets not re write history.
Muller would walk into any side in the Premier League.

The majority of our fan base don't want Gareth Bale but if he comes in and scores 20 odd for Spurs this year they'll change their tune.