Kai Havertz | Chelsea player

Kentonio

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He's only had a couple of days training with the first team so I'd be surprised id he starts.
Match isn’t until Monday though, so it’s still possible.
 

GameOn

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You seem to think I don't rate Müller. That's not true. I find his off the ball movement fascinating and never denied his impact. But there's only so far you can get with his quite average technique. And Müller is not the only player in the world that has great off the ball movement, timing and spacial awareness.

Thing is, when Bayern has had a great season then the hype surrounding Müller usually takes off completely. Because he's technically less fancy, his fans like to discredit "critics" of him by saying stuff like "you just look at the fancy stuff". As if other players didn't have great movement and wouldn't offer much more on top of it.

Suddenly he's a top 10 player in the world and I'm sorry but that's predicate that's just too much. I mean, you're claiming that he is better than at least one of Messi, Cristiano, Neymar, Mbappe, Hazard, de Bruyne, Mane, Salah, Lewandowski and van Dijk. What about players such as Kroos, Dybala, Aguero, Sancho, Thiago, Griezmann, Kimmich, Sterling, Bernardo Silva, Reus, Werner, Di Maria and so forth? I'd argue that quite a few of them would at least look as good as Müller in his stead. In all honesty, I'm not even sure if I'd include him in the top 5 of his own team. Lewandowski, Thiago and Kimmich were clearly better than him to me. Alaba, Davies, Neuer and Gnabry weren't too bad either.
Hazard? You mean Mr. Ronald McDonald, who's rolling around the pitch in Madrid nowadays? He isn't anywhere close to Müller right now.

I would probably take Messi, Cristiano, Neymar, Mbappe, Mane, Salah, Lewandowski and van Dijk over him, yes. That's it.

As for the rest of the guys you mentioned compared to Müller at his best: No chance. Actually mentioning guys like Werner or Bernardo Silva here is an insult to Müller.

You are trying to cleverly trash him by "generously" praising one single ability (off ball movement), while already relativising it in the next sentence and downplaying his other traits.
Pretty easy to see tbh.

There is a reason why so many former legends, teammates and coaches have said that Müller is one of the most important Bayern players and that he has traits that nobody else does. His spacial awareness, offball-movement and workrate are just really second to none.

It's NOT something that just any good or even worldclass player has.

It's not like he comfortably benched Götze, James and Coutinho, just because he was lucky.

Lmfao tbf the best insight on havertz has come from him, someone whose watched him week in week out for years.
I won't discredit Zehner here, but he's clearly biased on this matter.

I watched about 12-15 Leverkusen games this season (full games) and try to talk about Havertz objectively.

He's one of Germany's biggest talents, no doubt about that. He's been hyped into stratospheres, where he simply isn't (yet) though.
 

Zehner

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Hazard? You mean Mr. Ronald McDonald, who's rolling around the pitch in Madrid nowadays? He isn't anywhere close to Müller right now.

I would probably take Messi, Cristiano, Neymar, Mbappe, Mane, Salah, Lewandowski and van Dijk over him, yes. That's it.

As for the rest of the guys you mentioned compared to Müller at his best: No chance. Actually mentioning guys like Werner or Bernardo Silva here is an insult to Müller.

You are trying to cleverly trash him by "generously" praising one single ability (off ball movement), while already relativising it in the next sentence and downplaying his other traits.
Pretty easy to see tbh.

There is a reason why so many former legends, teammates and coaches have said that Müller is one of the most important Bayern players and that he has traits that nobody else does. His spacial awareness, offball-movement and workrate are just really second to none.

It's NOT something that just any good or even worldclass player has.

It's not like he comfortably benched Götze, James and Coutinho, just because he was lucky.


I won't discredit Zehner here, but he's clearly biased on this matter.

I watched about 12-15 Leverkusen games this season (full games) and try to talk about Havertz objectively.

He's one of Germany's biggest talents, no doubt about that. He's been hyped into stratospheres, where he simply isn't (yet) though.
Jesus, nowadays it's impossible to not praise a player irrationally without somebody assuming you've got some kind of agenda against him. I like Müller as a person, he's a cool guy and provided many, many positive memories. But I simply don't agree with what you say. He's probably one of the players that utilized even the last drop of talent he had but in the end, he's got his limitations.

Also, not being a Müller fanboy doesn't mean that you are just a superficial fan looking for fancy dribblings and skill moves. I've read and watched analyses of the off the ball movements of players like Cristiano, Messi, Müller etc., read multiple interviews of Cruyff, Xavi etc. in which they talked about how football is primarily played without the football and how important off the ball movement is. Not too long ago I spent hours reading spielverlagerung.de because I found the different tactical setups so interesting. I fully understand why Müller is so good. But as I said: He simply has limitations. His ball control just isn't the best, same as his acceleration and anticipation. He's got less tools than many other players at his level and it's a testament to his intelligence that he's even mentioned among the names I gave you earlier. But you seem to think that he's the only one doing that and this just isn't true. There are players like Cristiano, Mbappe, Sterling or even Gnabry who have got phenomenal off the ball movement, too, in some cases (Cristiano and Mbappe) maybe even better than Müller.

Also, the fact that you see Müller ahead of Hazard after the latter had one injury ridden season says enough about who is clearly biased right now. But forget Hazard, what about Sancho who provided 33 scorers in 27 games in a lesser team in the same league as Müller?

Even more so, you like speaking of off the ball movement and how important Müller is for the teams structure but completely forget midfielders. The best player on the pitch in the final was Thiago. He's the one that ensured the dominance and structure Müller needs to flourish in the first place. What about them? What about players like Kroos, Thiago, Bernardo Silva, etc. which are excellent at controlling games?
 

Pow

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Hazard? You mean Mr. Ronald McDonald, who's rolling around the pitch in Madrid nowadays? He isn't anywhere close to Müller right now.

I would probably take Messi, Cristiano, Neymar, Mbappe, Mane, Salah, Lewandowski and van Dijk over him, yes. That's it.

As for the rest of the guys you mentioned compared to Müller at his best: No chance. Actually mentioning guys like Werner or Bernardo Silva here is an insult to Müller.

You are trying to cleverly trash him by "generously" praising one single ability (off ball movement), while already relativising it in the next sentence and downplaying his other traits.
Pretty easy to see tbh.

There is a reason why so many former legends, teammates and coaches have said that Müller is one of the most important Bayern players and that he has traits that nobody else does. His spacial awareness, offball-movement and workrate are just really second to none.

It's NOT something that just any good or even worldclass player has.

It's not like he comfortably benched Götze, James and Coutinho, just because he was lucky.


I won't discredit Zehner here, but he's clearly biased on this matter.

I watched about 12-15 Leverkusen games this season (full games) and try to talk about Havertz objectively.

He's one of Germany's biggest talents, no doubt about that. He's been hyped into stratospheres, where he simply isn't (yet) though.
Hes as biased as much as the bayern fans are for muller,
the same muller who was wrote off as finished not too long ago (neuer too) same with bayern in general when kovac was there.
There form under flick has been amazing but lets not forget where they come from.
 

GameOn

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Jesus, nowadays it's impossible to not praise a player irrationally without somebody assuming you've got some kind of agenda against him. I like Müller as a person, he's a cool guy and provided many, many positive memories. But I simply don't agree with what you say.

Also, the fact that you see Müller ahead of Hazard after the latter had one injury ridden season says enough about who is clearly biased right now. But forget Hazard, what about Sancho who provided 33 scorers in 27 games in a lesser team in the same league as Müller?

Even more so, you like speaking of off the ball movement and how important Müller is for the teams structure but completely forget midfielders. The best player on the pitch in the final was Thiago. He's the one that ensured the dominance and structure Müller needs to flourish in the first place.
We can agree to disagree then.

This should be a thread about Havertz anyway, so I suggest we stop talking about Müller.

My last words (answer to the Sancho question): I rate him highly, one of my favorite young players right now and imho the perfect target for United. While his scorers were great and he's on his way to being a potential worldclass player, scorers aren't everything (just look at Werner). He was invisible in a lot of the "big matches". Same thing goes for both Havertz and Sancho imho: On their way to being worldclass, but not quite there yet. If all goes well, they could make it there this season though.
 

Zehner

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We can agree to disagree then.

This should be a thread about Havertz anyway, so I suggest we stop talking about Müller.

My last words (answer to the Sancho question): I rate him highly, one of my favorite young players right now and imho the perfect target for United. While his scorers were great and he's on his way to being a potential worldclass player, scorers aren't everything (just look at Werner). He was invisible in a lot of the "big matches". Same thing goes for both Havertz and Sancho imho: On their way to being worldclass, but not quite there yet. If all goes well, they could make it there this season though.
I'm sorry but you can't criticize Sancho and Havertz for being invisible in "big matches" and then praise Müller. You're applying different criteria for those two on the one hand and Müller on the other. Sancho for instance had a much better game against PSG than Müller when he easily outperformed Neymar (who came back from injury, but still). It's also much easier to shine in big games when your team is on eye level - neither Sancho nor Havertz had that luxury.
 

ForEverEleven

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Played in the wrong position today. He is not a winger. Robbed of his strengths. Nut sure what Lampard was thinking.
 

Adam-Utd

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Where is own goal or whatever his name was when we needed him? i'd love to get his opinion on that performance :D
 

WeePat

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Where is own goal or whatever his name was when we needed him? i'd love to get his opinion on that performance :D
It will pinned to the top of this thread tomorrow morning. Mods are working on it, don't worry.
 

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Terrible debut however he was played out of position and only signed last week, won't read too much into it. Might take a while to get going based off tonights performance. Shunting him out wide to accommodate RLC was idiotic.
 

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Terrible debut. When Bayern doesnt go after their local talent it should tell you what they think. Luckily Chelsea bought well in other areas.

I also think lampard has to try him as a second striker. He doesnt seem like a traditional number 10 or even a good playmaker.
 

Adam-Utd

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Terrible debut however he was played out of position and only signed last week, won't read too much into it. Might take a while to get going based off tonights performance. Shunting him out wide to accommodate RLC was idiotic.
He’s obviously going to need time to adjust his body and get used to the speed of England. Playing on the wing and chasing fullbacks all day is bloody hard work, and much different than he had to do at Leverkusen.

I think as you say it was a big mistake to play him there and should have used him in RLCs position. Liverpool up next isn’t it? Can’t see him starting that one after that performance.
 

MyOnlySolskjaer

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Terrible debut. When Bayern doesnt go after their local talent it should tell you what they think. Luckily Chelsea bought well in other areas.

I also think lampard has to try him as a second striker. He doesnt seem like a traditional number 10 or even a good playmaker.
They didn't go for Werner either. Is he terrible too?
 

Acrobat7

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They didn't go for Werner either. Is he terrible too?
Bayern wanted Havertz but it is currently too early. He won’t bench Müller and is too good for a sub.
Bayern had a chance to sign Werner but decided (rightfully i might add) that his strengths don’t fit their system. Sané > Werner for Bayern.
 

MyOnlySolskjaer

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Bayern wanted Havertz but it is currently too early. He won’t bench Müller and is too good for a sub.
Bayern had a chance to sign Werner but decided (rightfully i might add) that his strengths don’t fit their system. Sané > Werner for Bayern.
Which are all fair points, I just don't think Bayern not being in for a specific German player is a good metric to decide if a player is good or not which is what the OP was saying. There will be plenty of great German players who won't play for Bayern.
 

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didn't look up to much tonight but just a wierd team selection. not sure what the plan is... looked almost like a statement choice

They didn't go for Werner either. Is he terrible too?
he isn't terrible but I wouldn't blame bayern for thinking he isn't an elite striker to replace lewandewski. I think he is comfortably a tier below that. will get goals as he always has, like lukaku did and does and many others, but not a top tier player
 

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Shockingly Zehner hasn‘t posted yet.
I've only seen the second half and what I saw didn't look amazing to say the least. He looked like he knew that himself, I think. Was played out of position but he still could've done much better than that. Let's see how long he needs to settle.
 

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He looked very ordinary indeed but plenty of class players have come to the Prem and looked ordinary at first. Plus he's a second striker/false nine type player not a midfielder so I hope Lampard keeps wasting his talents by playing him there.
 

TheLord

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Havertz was bang average, but I won't judge him based on one or two matches. To be fair to Chelsea, they were missing five first-choice players in Ziyech, Silva, Kovacic, Chilwell, and Mendy(second goal).
 

ThatsGreat

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Will need one year to settle. Still young and is playing in a new league.
 

Le Red

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Havertz was bang average, but I won't judge him based on one or two matches. To be fair to Chelsea, they were missing five first-choice players in Ziyech, Silva, Kovacic, Chilwell, and Mendy(second goal).
Given that he was played out of position and barely trained with the team some slack has to be cut, but damn that performance was something else.
I've never seen someone that lost on a football pitch at this level. It was on par with Ali Dia.
He looked like a football fan who won a contest to play the match.
 

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Am I crazy for thinking that he wasn’t so bad today?

I mean, he was far from great but nowhere near as bad as some are saying. I thought that Loftus-Cheek and Alonso were worse.
 

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Am I crazy for thinking that he wasn’t so bad today?

I mean, he was far from great but nowhere near as bad as some are saying. I thought that Loftus-Cheek and Alonso were worse.
A mega signing being not so bad and that being a positive, is probably not a good thing.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Indeed. One fkin game.
Even established players have gone 10 games being shite. Guaranteed to score in their match against us now probably. :lol: :nervous:
Jesus christ the overreactions
Don't think people are writing him off. Obviously if he's highly rated as he is, then he has plenty of ability. And even top young players can take time to adapt to a new league/team.

At the same time, it doesn't mean we can't discuss his peformances and that there aren't expectations on him.
 

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That was about as bad as Mkhitaryan against City.

Obviously not passing judgement yet, but you have to wonder what‘s the plan from Fat Frank signing him only to shunt him to the wing like that.
 

Classical Mechanic

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Jesus christ the overreactions
This is the overreaction. Just commenting on a very disappointing debut after a lot of hype. Obviously he will get better than this.

Am I crazy for thinking that he wasn’t so bad today?

I mean, he was far from great but nowhere near as bad as some are saying. I thought that Loftus-Cheek and Alonso were worse.
Cheek was terrible but that was probably one of the last chances he’ll get at Chelsea. Alonso has just been replaced too. Havertz is a £100m signing.
 

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That pass to the linesman in the second half under no pressure was absolutely hilarious, that has nothing to do with being played out of position, and everything to do with a player lacking confidence and finding things difficult.

One game yes, but I don't see why people on here should give him an easy ride when Pogba gets chastised for performances which are far better than that.
 

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That pass to the linesman in the second half under no pressure was absolutely hilarious, that has nothing to do with being played out of position, and everything to do with a player lacking confidence and finding things difficult.

One game yes, but I don't see why people on here should give him an easy ride when Pogba gets chastised for performances which are far better than that.
He better get the Pogba treatment if he continues down this path, betting he won’t though.
 

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Havertz was bang average, but I won't judge him based on one or two matches. To be fair to Chelsea, they were missing five first-choice players in Ziyech, Silva, Kovacic, Chilwell, and Mendy(second goal).
Pulisic was the biggest miss. And Azpi (on the bench sure) who would've probably started at LB
 

Bilbo

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That was about as bad as Mkhitaryan against City.

Obviously not passing judgement yet, but you have to wonder what‘s the plan from Fat Frank signing him only to shunt him to the wing like that.
Itll take some time to figure it all out, but i think it will become a recurring trend - ie seeing Havertz experimented with - because Lampards always seemingly had a soft spot for Mount and will try everything he can to get them into the team together.
 

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In Caf, people are harsh towards their own players after a single bad match.

Ofcourse Havertz isnt going to have it easy after a big money transfer :lol:
 

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I thought he looked tidy in patches and also looked like the physicality and speed of English football took him a little by surprise.

He'll adapt I'm sure and we'll be talking about how good he is by xmas