Kalidou Koulibaly - part deux (or trois?)

Fortitude

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Unless you're dealing with a genuine reader of the game out of defense (whether that's backed up by phenomenal athleticism or not, ala Desailly or Campbell) I would be extremely wary of paying that kind of money for a CB who is likely to be leaving his athletic prime in the near future, unless a freak of the ilk of a Giggs, Zanetti, C.Ronaldo kind.

Further to that, adjusting to a harder, faster league where the likelihood of being pushed harder on a game by game basis, as well as playing more than used to... it's a move wrought with danger and risk as that asset cannot be moved on for anything like the price bought for.

I've nothing against Koulibaly - he's routinely regarded as an elite CB - , and he may well move and have a flawless, injury free, exemplary run of games, but we're in such a critical period of rebuilding that we have to take so much more into consideration than if he were just a great player coming into an already great squad - for the amount of shuffling about of our surplus CB's and the amount of eggs then placed squarely in his basket, it is one hell of a roll of the dice for us to make at the present time with so many other positions in dire need of thorough address at a cost going comfortably into the nine-figure territory.
 

MackRobinson

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Well then there are another 9 options where to pick up 5.
My point is he’s not that good and he’s not young so we shouldnt play a top fee for him. Damn I say we shouldn’t even be after him.
I'm sorry but you just listed a bunch of players that didn't make any sense, so I doubt you have seen a lot of the others. I just pointed out the one's that are pure nonsense. I think Godin and Legnet are also not even close, but the three I mentioned are just silly. You can't just think of a list of the first center halves that pop in your head and think you making a point...
 

MackRobinson

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Good post.

Remember how good Mangala and Otemendi were pre-City? Rated as highly as Koulibaly.
You think Konate, Sule, Smalling, Legnet, and Godin are better than Koulibaly? And do you really think Mangala and Otamendi are comparable to Koulibaly? :houllier:
 

bigphil

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Wtf.... been keeping tabs on the whole Bruno fiasco, log into Facebook and there’s an article saying koulabaly(spelling) done for £64 mill and will join this month. I don’t believe it!!!!
 

mwake

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Not just Koulibaly but when Liverpool played Napoli I would say he was MOM in two of the games I watched him. On his day he is as good as VVD, in fact two of the games I would even say he was better than VVD. VVD trumps Koulibaly though with regard to communication and organizing a defence but apart from that I would say they are evenly matched. Maguire needs a fast defender next to him so Koulibaly will be a perfect partner.
 

Litch

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Please be true.....
 

Samid

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  • Too old
  • Too expensive
  • CB not the biggest priority if the war chest is limited
  • AFCON in the middle of the season

It's a no from me.
 

OverratedOpinion

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Not really.
Who has been better? From what I can see on who scored he has the most interceptions, blocks, least times dribbled past, headers won etc. Ranked next to Van Dijk in the European team of the season so far and the highest rated defender in Serie A.

I am not so much saying you are wrong as genuinely curious if you think Koulibaly has been better.
 
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Suedesi

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Who has been better? From what I can see on who scored he has the most interceptions, blocks, least times dribbled past, headers won etc. Ranked next to Van Dijk in the European team of the season so far and the highest rated defender in Serie A.

I am not so much saying you are wrong as genuinely curious if you think Koulibaly has been better.
On current form De Vrij, has been superb.

Overall, I'd say Bonucci, Romagnoli, Koulibaly, Skriniar and Chiellini (whenever he's back) would have a claim to the best CB's in the league.
 

OverratedOpinion

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On current form De Vrij, has been superb.

Overall, I'd say Bonucci, Romagnoli, Koulibaly, Skriniar and Chiellini (whenever he's back) would have a claim to the best CB's in the league.
I should be very clear that when I said "Hasn't Smalling been the best defender in the league?" I did mean this season. To be fair I think that was a fairly safe assumption since this is his first season there.

De Vrij (this season) gets dribbled past 4 times as often, intercepts passes just over half as often, wins significantly less headers, catches players offside half as often. To be honest he has statistically had a good season but slightly worse in every aspect of the game other than having 2% better passing accuracy (89 vs 91).

Now if we get into comparing Smalling to Koulibaly then it really starts to look like a dramatically 1 sided contest in Smalling's favour.
 

Suedesi

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I should be very clear that when I said "Hasn't Smalling been the best defender in the league?" I did mean this season. To be fair I think that was a fairly safe assumption since this is his first season there.

De Vrij (this season) gets dribbled past 4 times as often, intercepts passes just over half as often, wins significantly less headers, catches players offside half as often. To be honest he has statistically had a good season but slightly worse in every aspect of the game other than having 2% better passing accuracy (89 vs 91).

Now if we get into comparing Smalling to Koulibaly then it really starts to look like a dramatically 1 sided contest in Smalling's favour.
There's too many variables that cannot be captured by stats: awareness, positional sense, whether the team plays with 3 vs 4 at the back etc. Otherwise, you wouldn't need scouts, just a software package would do. I haven't seen every Inter or Roma match, but the consensus in Italy is that De Vrij has be the in-form defender.
 

OverratedOpinion

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There's too many variables that cannot be captured by stats: awareness, positional sense, whether the team plays with 3 vs 4 at the back etc. Otherwise, you wouldn't need scouts, just a software package would do. I haven't seen every Inter or Roma match, but the consensus in Italy is that De Vrij has be the in-form defender.
I mean things like how aware a defender is and the quality of their positioning can definitely be represented by statistics. These types of metrics are often derided when they paint an inconvenient picture, they can not always tell you how good a player actually is but they can give a very accurate idea of how well a player is playing presently. A huge part of a scouts job is to understand whether an average player is over performing and that level will eventually drop or vice versa, scouts also rely very heavily on statistics.

The "consensus" of how good Chris Smalling is might be one of the most persistently inaccurate views throughout world football for the last 5+ years. He has played in some crap teams and isn't a "ball playing defender" but he is a bloody good one who has predictably gone and totally outperformed a load of flavour of the month centre backs. That includes the 160+ million potential pair of Maguire and Koulibaly.
 

Suedesi

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I mean things like how aware a defender is and the quality of their positioning can definitely be represented by statistics. These types of metrics are often derided when they paint an inconvenient picture, they can not always tell you how good a player actually is but they can give a very accurate idea of how well a player is playing presently. A huge part of a scouts job is to understand whether an average player is over performing and that level will eventually drop or vice versa, scouts also rely very heavily on statistics.

The "consensus" of how good Chris Smalling is might be one of the most persistently inaccurate views throughout world football for the last 5+ years. He has played in some crap teams and isn't a "ball playing defender" but he is a bloody good one who has predictably gone and totally outperformed a load of flavour of the month centre backs. That includes the 160+ million potential pair of Maguire and Koulibaly.
You're the definition of an agenda poster, hard to engage in a debate with you. I've seen Chris Smalling for 9 years in the Premier League, I don't need a 5 month stint in Serie A to reevaluate how good or bad he is. He is a good man marker with obvious flaws to his game, that a good coach can try to minimize. He's done very well so far in Italy (as has Lukaku, as will Ashley Young). Smalling however is not a better defender than Koulibaly, get over it.
 

UpWithRivers

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Not going to happen but if somehow we could get him for around 65 mill why the heck not. We can sell Smalling + 1 other, Jones would be my preference for 30 together. Then thats 30/35 mill for Koulibally which shouldnt hurt our budget too much. It never works like that though. Probably City bound.
 

OverratedOpinion

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You're the definition of an agenda poster, hard to engage in a debate with you. I've seen Chris Smalling for 9 years in the Premier League, I don't need a 5 month stint in Serie A to reevaluate how good or bad he is. He is a good man marker with obvious flaws to his game, that a good coach can try to minimize. He's done very well so far in Italy (as has Lukaku, as will Ashley Young). Smalling however is not a better defender than Koulibaly, get over it.
You seem sensitive.

By an "agenda poster" do you mean I stay on the exact subject I was talking about when you decided to engage? Nuts :houllier:

My problem is that I would quite strongly expect that if we spent all this money on Koulibaly that he would dramatically flop when he came to a much more difficult league. I don't actually care what your opinion on Smalling is so there is nothing there for me to "get over", I do find it frustrating that we let him go on loan whilst keeping 4 inferior defenders.
 

mu4c_20le

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If we have a chance we should definitely take it. Maybe Ole and especially Ed are finally getting desperate for success. We need leaders to guide our young squad to the top.
 

Suedesi

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You seem sensitive.

By an "agenda poster" do you mean I stay on the exact subject I was talking about when you decided to engage? Nuts :houllier:

My problem is that I would quite strongly expect that if we spent all this money on Koulibaly that he would dramatically flop when he came to a much more difficult league. I don't actually care what your opinion on Smalling is so there is nothing there for me to "get over", I do find it frustrating that we let him go on loan whilst keeping 4 inferior defenders.
Nice answer :lol:

By agenda poster I mean someone who brings Smalling over and over again in the transfer thread of another player, even though Chris had 9 years to cement his place at the heart of United defense and never seemed to quite manage it. Let it go, he didn't work out at United he's doing well at Roma, I'm happy for the guy
 

Alabaster Codify7

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I'd love him here and think the ship has sailed. But to dream, for a moment...

If we could flog Smalling to Roma for around £20m and get rid of Rojo for say, £10m - we'd be getting Koulibaly for around £35-40m which is a great price for a CB of his quality and presence. I would then get rid of Bailly in the summer for around £20m (preferably Jones but lets face, nobody wants him).
 

Cnaiür urs Skiötha

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I'd love him here and think the ship has sailed. But to dream, for a moment...

If we could flog Smalling to Roma for around £20m and get rid of Rojo for say, £10m - we'd be getting Koulibaly for around £35-40m which is a great price for a CB of his quality and presence. I would then get rid of Bailly in the summer for around £20m (preferably Jones but lets face, nobody wants him).
I think all of us would be ok with getting rid of Rojo, Bailly, Smalling and Sir Philip and get in Koulibaly as number 1 partner for Maguire and Lindelof/Tuanzabe as back-ups.

However, there is no way we are going to spend a big sum on another CB.
 

Ikon

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I wouldn't say no. Not a priority though.
Not a priority, however, if he did become available at a tempting price, then perhaps we shouldn't overlook the opportunity, especially if we actually do manage to sign Bruno and lets say Soumare in this January window.
 

Nou_Camp99

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You need a top defence to achieve anything these days. City's midfield and forward line is up there with the best we've ever seen in this country but look at how poor they are doing by their own recent standards without a solid defence.

Koulibally + Maguire would ensure us top 4 no worries next season. We'd be incredibly solid. However it's definitely not the top priority for us I agree.
 

OverratedOpinion

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Nice answer :lol:

By agenda poster I mean someone who brings Smalling over and over again in the transfer thread of another player, even though Chris had 9 years to cement his place at the heart of United defense and never seemed to quite manage it. Let it go, he didn't work out at United he's doing well at Roma, I'm happy for the guy
Considering that we currently have a player on loan who is notably outperforming Koulibaly in the same position and league, I think it is worth mentioning when discussing another record breaking transfer.

I've seen you on here but never interacted with you. Do you often quote people then start calling them names when they respond discussing the exact subject you quoted them regarding?
 

Suedesi

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Considering that we currently have a player on loan who is notably outperforming Koulibaly in the same position and league, I think it is worth mentioning when discussing another record breaking transfer.

I've seen you on here but never interacted with you. Do you often quote people then start calling them names when they respond discussing the exact subject you quoted them regarding?
Look, do I think Koulibaly is the top priority right now? No, we have a big hole in midfield and RW to fill. But if he's available for a decent price - and this based on the fact that Napoli's cycled is finished, they might want to sell their marketable assets to refresh the squad - and by decent price I mean no higher than 60m Euros, then I would buy and shift Rojo, Smalling, Jones, Bailly to partly fund the operation.

On the other hand, if you think Smalling is on the same level as Koulibaly, then I have nothing else to discuss with you.
 

OverratedOpinion

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Look, do I think Koulibaly is the top priority right now? No, we have a big hole in midfield and RW to fill. But if he's available for a decent price - and this based on the fact that Napoli's cycled is finished, they might want to sell their marketable assets to refresh the squad - and by decent price I mean no higher than 60m Euros, then I would buy and shift Rojo, Smalling, Jones, Bailly to partly fund the operation.

On the other hand, if you think Smalling is on the same level as Koulibaly, then I have nothing else to discuss with you.
I think it is very hard to tell the level of a player who has spent their career in the Belgian and Italian leagues. I'm not really fussed about your opinion on players at this point.

I am more bemused at your little tantrum earlier but carry on.
 

Suedesi

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I think it is very hard to tell the level of a player who has spent their career in the Belgian and Italian leagues. I'm not really fussed about your opinion on players at this point.

I am more bemused at your little tantrum earlier but carry on.
Ok little doll, on you go.