Kasper Schmeichel | Signs for Nice

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Champ

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I don't think you really want to compare Henderson and De Gea. It won't work out the way you want. In 2020/21 (the only season Henderson really got some playing time with us) Henderson allowed .96 goals per 90 minutes compared to De Gea's 1.25. Henderson also had a save % of 76% while De Gea was only 67.1%. Last season De Gea was lucky enough to get the starting spot back after Henderson fell ill, and despite many saying De Gea had a good season, his goals against per 90 rose to 1.5 while his save percentage was still only 69.5%. But don't let these little facts get in the way.

Dean Henderson Stats, Goals, Records, Assists, Cups and more | FBref.com
David de Gea Stats, Goals, Records, Assists, Cups and more | FBref.com

If you really want to see how bad De Gea actually is, you should see the comparison I made with him and Romero. No wonder Romero left. He was the better keeper and couldn't get in for some odd reason...
Romero only played against cup teams, not the best of comparisons.

How many shots did Henderson face compared to DDG? How many crosses? How many corners did he face?

Those are the stats that will show you the difference.

Stats out of context, or in the case of Romero, with no context, make little sense.
 

mitchmouse

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I don't think you really want to compare Henderson and De Gea. It won't work out the way you want. In 2020/21 (the only season Henderson really got some playing time with us) Henderson allowed .96 goals per 90 minutes compared to De Gea's 1.25. Henderson also had a save % of 76% while De Gea was only 67.1%. Last season De Gea was lucky enough to get the starting spot back after Henderson fell ill, and despite many saying De Gea had a good season, his goals against per 90 rose to 1.5 while his save percentage was still only 69.5%. But don't let these little facts get in the way.

Dean Henderson Stats, Goals, Records, Assists, Cups and more | FBref.com
David de Gea Stats, Goals, Records, Assists, Cups and more | FBref.com

If you really want to see how bad De Gea actually is, you should see the comparison I made with him and Romero. No wonder Romero left. He was the better keeper and couldn't get in for some odd reason...
I spent weeks calling for Romero to be given a chance. There's also another thing that stats don't show - how many crosses a really good keeper cuts out so preventing shots. DDG hardly leaves his line at ll. Hendo comes for things. DDG is like that ancient joke: he is as afraid of crosses as Dracula
 

SadlerMUFC

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Romero only played against cup teams, not the best of comparisons.

How many shots did Henderson face compared to DDG? How many crosses? How many corners did he face?

Those are the stats that will show you the difference.

Stats out of context, or in the case of Romero, with no context, make little sense.
I was really hoping you were going to say that. So because you did, let's make it fair and compare De Gea vs Romero in "only those easy cup games". Deal?

Romero---------------Games--------------------Goals----------------Clean Sheets
Europa-------------------28---------------------------18------------------------16
FA Cup-------------------17---------------------------5---------------------------13
EFL Cup-----------------9-----------------------------6---------------------------4

Total----------------------54----------------------------29------------------------33

So Romero averaged .53 goals against per game and had a clean sheet in 61% of his matches. But seeing as you have already pointed out that Romero "only played in the easy matches" then we should compare apples to apples and look at Dave's stats in those easy games

Dave--------------------Games--------------------Goals----------------Clean Sheets
Europa-------------------29---------------------------36------------------------8
FA Cup-------------------22---------------------------23-------------------------5
EFL Cup-----------------14----------------------------16-------------------------6


Total----------------------65----------------------------75------------------------19

So in those same "easy games" Dave has allowed 1.15 GPG and has kept a clean sheet 29% of the time

Dave is quite possibly the greatest shot stopper I have ever seen. He has made saves that many can only dream of. But there is no doubt in my mind that even though he makes saves that Romero couldn't, we would concede less with him in goal. Romero proved this to be true and I wish Henderson had been given a real chance to see if he could as well. Not saying Henderson is/was the right answer, I just know that De Gea isn't and never has been...

And by the way, I only compared the "easy matches" just like you said. Had I included Romero's EPL games he had 7 starts with 6 clean sheets and only 2 goals conceded.
 

mitchmouse

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I was really hoping you were going to say that. So because you did, let's make it fair and compare De Gea vs Romero in "only those easy cup games". Deal?

Romero---------------Games--------------------Goals----------------Clean Sheets
Europa-------------------28---------------------------18------------------------16
FA Cup-------------------17---------------------------5---------------------------13
EFL Cup-----------------9-----------------------------6---------------------------4

Total----------------------54----------------------------29------------------------33

So Romero averaged .53 goals against per game and had a clean sheet in 61% of his matches. But seeing as you have already pointed out that Romero "only played in the easy matches" then we should compare apples to apples and look at Dave's stats in those easy games

Dave--------------------Games--------------------Goals----------------Clean Sheets
Europa-------------------29---------------------------36------------------------8
FA Cup-------------------22---------------------------23-------------------------5
EFL Cup-----------------14----------------------------16-------------------------6


Total----------------------65----------------------------75------------------------19

So in those same "easy games" Dave has allowed 1.15 GPG and has kept a clean sheet 29% of the time

Dave is quite possibly the greatest shot stopper I have ever seen. He has made saves that many can only dream of. But there is no doubt in my mind that even though he makes saves that Romero couldn't, we would concede less with him in goal. Romero proved this to be true and I wish Henderson had been given a real chance to see if he could as well. Not saying Henderson is/was the right answer, I just know that De Gea isn't and never has been...

And by the way, I only compared the "easy matches" just like you said. Had I included Romero's EPL games he had 7 starts with 6 clean sheets and only 2 goals conceded.
you'll never convince some people with facts! some here seem to think DDG is United's best ever keeper - I don't have him in the top three
 

Champ

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I was really hoping you were going to say that. So because you did, let's make it fair and compare De Gea vs Romero in "only those easy cup games". Deal?

Romero---------------Games--------------------Goals----------------Clean Sheets
Europa-------------------28---------------------------18------------------------16
FA Cup-------------------17---------------------------5---------------------------13
EFL Cup-----------------9-----------------------------6---------------------------4

Total----------------------54----------------------------29------------------------33

So Romero averaged .53 goals against per game and had a clean sheet in 61% of his matches. But seeing as you have already pointed out that Romero "only played in the easy matches" then we should compare apples to apples and look at Dave's stats in those easy games

Dave--------------------Games--------------------Goals----------------Clean Sheets
Europa-------------------29---------------------------36------------------------8
FA Cup-------------------22---------------------------23-------------------------5
EFL Cup-----------------14----------------------------16-------------------------6


Total----------------------65----------------------------75------------------------19

So in those same "easy games" Dave has allowed 1.15 GPG and has kept a clean sheet 29% of the time

Dave is quite possibly the greatest shot stopper I have ever seen. He has made saves that many can only dream of. But there is no doubt in my mind that even though he makes saves that Romero couldn't, we would concede less with him in goal. Romero proved this to be true and I wish Henderson had been given a real chance to see if he could as well. Not saying Henderson is/was the right answer, I just know that De Gea isn't and never has been...

And by the way, I only compared the "easy matches" just like you said. Had I included Romero's EPL games he had 7 starts with 6 clean sheets and only 2 goals conceded.
I never said anything about 'easy' matches. Just that Romero was mainly a cup GK.

Romero was a very good GK, prone to the odd lapse of concentration and error but generally was an excellent number two.

Better than DDG? Most definitely not.

And again, it's not comparing 'apples for apples' when the opposition is different in each game, to be fair to Romero he often had a second choice defence in front of him also.


Henderson is not the answer either. Did you see the goal he conceded against Valencia the other day? Not necessarily a GK error but you can bet that DDG would have saved that.

DDG is a class act, not sure why a minority of United fans are pretty much the only people to not see this
 

mitchmouse

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I never said anything about 'easy' matches. Just that Romero was mainly a cup GK.

Romero was a very good GK, prone to the odd lapse of concentration and error but generally was an excellent number two.

Better than DDG? Most definitely not.

And again, it's not comparing 'apples for apples' when the opposition is different in each game, to be fair to Romero he often had a second choice defence in front of him also.


Henderson is not the answer either. Did you see the goal he conceded against Valencia the other day? Not necessarily a GK error but you can bet that DDG would have saved that.

DDG is a class act, not sure why a minority of United fans are pretty much the only people to not see this
I can pretty much assure you it's not just United fans. There's the Spanish national coach for starters. DDG is not guaranteed to start in the WC and those of us can see why - he is not an all-round great goalkeeper. There's a hell of a lot more to it than stopping shots. In the past, the likes of Gordon Banks and Pat Jennings stop situations developing. Peter S and VdS cut out balls that DDG barely even sees
 

arthurka

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You should probably try reading the other posts I've done in here.

His dad was a great goalkeeper, in my opinion one of the best. Off the pitch however he's a bit of a prat too.
What gives you that idea? We have friends here in Iceland that are friends with him and his family and he is nothing if not nice and friendly. He was notoriously competitive as an athlete and clashed with his teammates like Keane who was notoriously competitive as well. We shouldn't judge people on their persona in the media or as athletes. He is Danish and has a certain thing about him but pretty much all Danish people I know have a certain way about them, get to know them they are nothing but nice and friendly.
 

Champ

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I can pretty much assure you it's not just United fans. There's the Spanish national coach for starters. DDG is not guaranteed to start in the WC and those of us can see why - he is not an all-round great goalkeeper. There's a hell of a lot more to it than stopping shots. In the past, the likes of Gordon Banks and Pat Jennings stop situations developing. Peter S and VdS cut out balls that DDG barely even sees
Enrique has already hinted that the reason DDG wasn't included in recent squads was because he doesn't fit their style of play, not because he doesn't rate him.

It's clear that DDG isn't similar to say Raya in terms of how they play, which is fine as DDG is better at other aspects of the game.
Those aspects don't suit the Spanish game plan under Enrique.
 

SadlerMUFC

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I never said anything about 'easy' matches. Just that Romero was mainly a cup GK.

Romero was a very good GK, prone to the odd lapse of concentration and error but generally was an excellent number two.

Better than DDG? Most definitely not.

And again, it's not comparing 'apples for apples' when the opposition is different in each game, to be fair to Romero he often had a second choice defence in front of him also.


Henderson is not the answer either. Did you see the goal he conceded against Valencia the other day? Not necessarily a GK error but you can bet that DDG would have saved that.

DDG is a class act, not sure why a minority of United fans are pretty much the only people to not see this
I never said Henderson was the answer. I don't know if he is or if he isn't because he was never given the chance. What I can tell you (more facts so you probably won't like it) is that we conceded less goals when Henderson played in net.

As for Romero, you said that he only played in cup games. So I compared his stats in those cup games vs De Gea's stats in those same competitions. The comparison wasn't even close. We conceded less goals. A lot less.

Could Dave have saved one that Romero couldn't? Probably. Like I said, De Gea is quite possibly the greatest shot stopper I've ever seen. But if you don't understand the difference between a great shot stopper and a great keeper then there's no point in carrying on the conversation.

But I will try. For example.....

Dave likes to stay on his goal line. A lot. Because of that he will get a lot more 1 on 1 situations. Now let's say for every 10 of those situations, De Gea will make 4 unbelievable saves that no other keeper will ever make while the opponent scores on 6 of the other tries. We will look at those 6 other tries as goals that Dave couldn't do anything about and probably blame Maguire.

Now let's put Allison in goal for those same 10 situations. Allison is a keeper who likes to come out of his goal. A lot. Now of those 10 through balls, Allison will come out and cut of 5 of them, make 2 great saves and allow 3 goals. We will then call VVD the best defender in the world.

A person who doesn't really understand the position will look at De Gea and say "wow, look at how great he is. He made 4 saves that no other keeper in the world could make". Meanwhile, he has let in twice the amount of goals that Allison has despite Allison only making 2 saves. But go on...keep telling us how great Dave is...
 

mitchmouse

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Enrique has already hinted that the reason DDG wasn't included in recent squads was because he doesn't fit their style of play, not because he doesn't rate him.

It's clear that DDG isn't similar to say Raya in terms of how they play, which is fine as DDG is better at other aspects of the game.
Those aspects don't suit the Spanish game plan under Enrique.
and exactly what are those aspects? they are the aspects that make for an all-round good goalkeeper
 

mu4c_20le

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If you really want to see how bad De Gea actually is, you should see the comparison I made with him and Romero. No wonder Romero left. He was the better keeper and couldn't get in for some odd reason...
If he's so good, why did he end up with bottom placed Venezia after he left, and now out of a job?
 

Champ

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I never said Henderson was the answer. I don't know if he is or if he isn't because he was never given the chance. What I can tell you (more facts so you probably won't like it) is that we conceded less goals when Henderson played in net.

As for Romero, you said that he only played in cup games. So I compared his stats in those cup games vs De Gea's stats in those same competitions. The comparison wasn't even close. We conceded less goals. A lot less.

Could Dave have saved one that Romero couldn't? Probably. Like I said, De Gea is quite possibly the greatest shot stopper I've ever seen. But if you don't understand the difference between a great shot stopper and a great keeper then there's no point in carrying on the conversation.

But I will try. For example.....

Dave likes to stay on his goal line. A lot. Because of that he will get a lot more 1 on 1 situations. Now let's say for every 10 of those situations, De Gea will make 4 unbelievable saves that no other keeper will ever make while the opponent scores on 6 of the other tries. We will look at those 6 other tries as goals that Dave couldn't do anything about and probably blame Maguire.

Now let's put Allison in goal for those same 10 situations. Allison is a keeper who likes to come out of his goal. A lot. Now of those 10 through balls, Allison will come out and cut of 5 of them, make 2 great saves and allow 3 goals. We will then call VVD the best defender in the world.

A person who doesn't really understand the position will look at De Gea and say "wow, look at how great he is. He made 4 saves that no other keeper in the world could make". Meanwhile, he has let in twice the amount of goals that Allison has despite Allison only making 2 saves. But go on...keep telling us how great Dave is...
Just to inform you, I'm a trained GK coach, so yeah I understand the position well.

You are working on the principle that the only way to play that position is to come off your line repeatedly.
This isn't the case.

Yes DDG could come off his line more, that's evident, but to say that's the reason for United conceding goals isn't entirely correct.

DDG has saved United a lot more than cost United.

Whats interesting to me is EtH wants to play on the front foot, possession based football with a fairly high press. Yet he was happy to see Henderson leave on loan, despite our number one keeper supposedly not being suitable for this style of football and Henderson apparently being better on the ball.

I think people need to face it, DDG is a very good GK, and his positives far outweigh his negatives, and so is a benefit to the team as a number one. There really isn't a huge amount of better GKs than him in world football today.

As someone has suggested also, Romero was plying his trade with a relegated team in Serie A last season.
How many goals did he let in there?!
 

Zed 101

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Some comments on Schmeichel from a Leicester forum:

































And so on. If you think De Gea is frustrating at set-pieces, Schmeichel would drive you insane. Note where he sits relative to De Gea on the below:



Nothing new either. As some of the comments above say, he's been like that for years. Yet for some reason people who don't watch Leicester regularly sometimes seem to imagine him as some sort of commanding presence.
according to your graphic we should be after Sanchez
 

SadlerMUFC

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Just to inform you, I'm a trained GK coach, so yeah I understand the position well.

You are working on the principle that the only way to play that position is to come off your line repeatedly.
This isn't the case.

Yes DDG could come off his line more, that's evident, but to say that's the reason for United conceding goals isn't entirely correct.

DDG has saved United a lot more than cost United.

Whats interesting to me is EtH wants to play on the front foot, possession based football with a fairly high press. Yet he was happy to see Henderson leave on loan, despite our number one keeper supposedly not being suitable for this style of football and Henderson apparently being better on the ball.

I think people need to face it, DDG is a very good GK, and his positives far outweigh his negatives, and so is a benefit to the team as a number one. There really isn't a huge amount of better GKs than him in world football today.

As someone has suggested also, Romero was plying his trade with a relegated team in Serie A last season.
How many goals did he let in there?!
As someone who has played in goal his whole life (and I still do at 48 years old) I don't believe for one second that you are a "trained GK coach" and if you are and you still don't understand how poor De Gea really is, then you definitely aren't a good one. Like I've said several times, there's a big difference between being a keeper who makes great saves (De Gea) and a great keeper

But let's put you to the test. Why are these two goals De Gea's fault?

Rodriguez on 53 seconds


Messi on 1:27


As for Romero, I can't account for what's happened since he's left United. All I can talk for is how well he did at United
 

JB7

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Just to inform you, I'm a trained GK coach, so yeah I understand the position well.

You are working on the principle that the only way to play that position is to come off your line repeatedly.
This isn't the case.

Yes DDG could come off his line more, that's evident, but to say that's the reason for United conceding goals isn't entirely correct.

DDG has saved United a lot more than cost United.

Whats interesting to me is EtH wants to play on the front foot, possession based football with a fairly high press. Yet he was happy to see Henderson leave on loan, despite our number one keeper supposedly not being suitable for this style of football and Henderson apparently being better on the ball.

I think people need to face it, DDG is a very good GK, and his positives far outweigh his negatives, and so is a benefit to the team as a number one. There really isn't a huge amount of better GKs than him in world football today.

As someone has suggested also, Romero was plying his trade with a relegated team in Serie A last season.
How many goals did he let in there?!
So am I and there are so many things wrong here.

You are correct that there are multiple ways to play the position however over the past 25 years there have been very few highly successful teams that play with a goalkeeper who leaves his line so infrequently.

De Gea of a number of years ago saved United more than he cost United you are correct. However there are mitigating circumstances to that, in that United under Mourinho played a deep line with more direct balls to the attackers, so his weaknesses regarding sweeping and distribution were not highlighted so much because a) there wasn't the gap behind the defenders he would be expected to look after and b) we were aiming long balls to Ibrahimovic, Lukaku etc who were used to that type of football. However even in that team he was more than twice as likely to deal with crosses into the box than he is today (circa 6.5-7% of crosses as opposed to 3%). So while as a team we played to his strengths, even then he was coming off his line more than in 21/22.

Henderson's distribution with his feet was not a lot better than De Gea's, this part is a myth. He was significantly better at seeing opportunities for counter attacks but his execution was inconsistent, though he was better in terms of quick throws/rolls out. However he was significantly better at sweeping and dealing with crosses, circa four times more likely to deal with a ball in behind the defence and twice as likely to deal with a cross into the box IIRC statistically. That was a large part of the reason our defensive performances improved so significantly with him in the team. No one is saying he is good enough to be the long term number one but every performance metric improved with him in the team and almost immediately fell off a cliff once De Gea was brought back in. There were also sizeable rumours linking Henderson to some of the press leaks last season which could be a reason he was moved on so quickly.

In terms of the positives outweighing the negatives, it's just not true anymore. They certainly didn't in 18/19, 19/20 or 20/21 when his one strength, his shot stopping, was way below his previous levels. His shot stopping in the early part of last season was back to his best, granted, hence his high PSxG metric but even that fell off strongly in the second part of the season and this was alongside being the worst goalkeeper in the division at leaving his line both in terms of crosses and balls in behind the defence, so he offered nothing whatsoever in terms of opportunity prevention. And we conceded 57 goals. Look back at a number of the top class saves he made last season, it's astonishing how often there was a ball into the box a keeper could have easily claimed a few seconds before, or possession has been poorly given away by the goalkeeper leading to the chance.

In terms of there not being a huge amount of better goalkeepers, I disagree but it depends what you look for in a goalkeeper. If he became available do you think any of the worlds top clubs would be interested in him? I've looked at the seeded clubs for this years Champions League and I'd be astonished if any clubs in the top 2 pots - with the possible exception of Juventus - would even look at him.
 

Champ

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So am I and there are so many things wrong here.

You are correct that there are multiple ways to play the position however over the past 25 years there have been very few highly successful teams that play with a goalkeeper who leaves his line so infrequently.

De Gea of a number of years ago saved United more than he cost United you are correct. However there are mitigating circumstances to that, in that United under Mourinho played a deep line with more direct balls to the attackers, so his weaknesses regarding sweeping and distribution were not highlighted so much because a) there wasn't the gap behind the defenders he would be expected to look after and b) we were aiming long balls to Ibrahimovic, Lukaku etc who were used to that type of football. However even in that team he was more than twice as likely to deal with crosses into the box than he is today (circa 6.5-7% of crosses as opposed to 3%). So while as a team we played to his strengths, even then he was coming off his line more than in 21/22.

Henderson's distribution with his feet was not a lot better than De Gea's, this part is a myth. He was significantly better at seeing opportunities for counter attacks but his execution was inconsistent, though he was better in terms of quick throws/rolls out. However he was significantly better at sweeping and dealing with crosses, circa four times more likely to deal with a ball in behind the defence and twice as likely to deal with a cross into the box IIRC statistically. That was a large part of the reason our defensive performances improved so significantly with him in the team. No one is saying he is good enough to be the long term number one but every performance metric improved with him in the team and almost immediately fell off a cliff once De Gea was brought back in. There were also sizeable rumours linking Henderson to some of the press leaks last season which could be a reason he was moved on so quickly.

In terms of the positives outweighing the negatives, it's just not true anymore. They certainly didn't in 18/19, 19/20 or 20/21 when his one strength, his shot stopping, was way below his previous levels. His shot stopping in the early part of last season was back to his best, granted, hence his high PSxG metric but even that fell off strongly in the second part of the season and this was alongside being the worst goalkeeper in the division at leaving his line both in terms of crosses and balls in behind the defence, so he offered nothing whatsoever in terms of opportunity prevention. And we conceded 57 goals. Look back at a number of the top class saves he made last season, it's astonishing how often there was a ball into the box a keeper could have easily claimed a few seconds before, or possession has been poorly given away by the goalkeeper leading to the chance.

In terms of there not being a huge amount of better goalkeepers, I disagree but it depends what you look for in a goalkeeper. If he became available do you think any of the worlds top clubs would be interested in him? I've looked at the seeded clubs for this years Champions League and I'd be astonished if any clubs in the top 2 pots - with the possible exception of Juventus - would even look at him.
Not a lot of top teams require GKs right now, but if they did and they knew DDG was available then they would definitely be after him.
Let's not forget how long Real Madrid flirted with him for.

Have a look at Courtois' heatmap for the game against Liverpool for example, he was man of the match and barely left his box.
Yet Real Madrid won that game. Why? Because they adapted to the oppositions tactics. Again, more than one way to play and win the game.

Have a look at DDGs heatmap against Liverpool in 2015 for example (Juanfield) he spent a large proportion of the game on the edge of his box and even outside it.
He can do it, and he can adapt.

Can DDG come off his line more? Yes for sure he can.
Is he capable of doing so? Yes as he has done in the past.
Is he a good GK? Undoubtedly.
Can he improve distribution? Yes for sure, however he has improved this side of his game (nearly gained an assist V Fulham for example with a bit of quick thinking)

So he is more than capable of these elements, maybe a solid structure in front of him will give him greater license to show this moving forward.
 

Champ

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As someone who has played in goal his whole life (and I still do at 48 years old) I don't believe for one second that you are a "trained GK coach" and if you are and you still don't understand how poor De Gea really is, then you definitely aren't a good one. Like I've said several times, there's a big difference between being a keeper who makes great saves (De Gea) and a great keeper

But let's put you to the test. Why are these two goals De Gea's fault?

Rodriguez on 53 seconds


Messi on 1:27


As for Romero, I can't account for what's happened since he's left United. All I can talk for is how well he did at United
Glad you know me better than I know myself :lol:

I guess that three part training course I went on meant nothing then.

Also glad you seem to know better than Jose, Sir Alex, Ole, Erik ten Hag, Carrick, Giggs, Rangnick, LVG and Moyes. You must be a great manager!

Anyhow, despite your rather lackluster put downs, I'll carry on.

The Rodriguez goal is a cracker. Difficult for a GK to take being beaten at the near post like that, but it's hit with power and precision right in the apex of the goal.
Not really a huge amount DDG, not any keeper could do about that. Even the commentator agrees with me on that one!

Can't see the Messi one, blocked unfortunately.

Am I right in thinking you believe the Rodriguez goal to be DDGs fault?
I'd love to know how if so.

Romero was in goal 16 times last season and conceded 33 goals. An alarming stat surely even you would agree?
 

JB7

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Not a lot of top teams require GKs right now, but if they did and they knew DDG was available then they would definitely be after him.
Let's not forget how long Real Madrid flirted with him for.

Have a look at Courtois' heatmap for the game against Liverpool for example, he was man of the match and barely left his box.
Yet Real Madrid won that game. Why? Because they adapted to the oppositions tactics. Again, more than one way to play and win the game.

Have a look at DDGs heatmap against Liverpool in 2015 for example (Juanfield) he spent a large proportion of the game on the edge of his box and even outside it.
He can do it, and he can adapt.

Can DDG come off his line more? Yes for sure he can.
Is he capable of doing so? Yes as he has done in the past.
Is he a good GK? Undoubtedly.
Can he improve distribution? Yes for sure, however he has improved this side of his game (nearly gained an assist V Fulham for example with a bit of quick thinking)

So he is more than capable of these elements, maybe a solid structure in front of him will give him greater license to show this moving forward.
I'm not sure if you're serious at this point. Real Madrid wanted him what, 7 or 8 years ago? And whether they need goalkeepers is irrelevant, you're saying he's one of the best so if he was available top clubs would want him to replace their goalkeepers if he was an upgrade. At the time a) he was a lot better at leaving his line than he has been over the past 5 years and b) Real had a team used to a goalkeeper not leaving his line too often. Would they touch him now? Of course they wouldn't. He'll be available on a free transfer in a year, lets see where he ends up.

Courtios didn't need to leave his box because his team sat deep and looked to counter attack, so balls in behind the defenders weren't happening. And let's not pretend sweeping only happens outside of the penalty area either. However he did deal with 3 crosses into the box in that game off the top of my head, which is almost a third of De Gea's total in the entire 38 game Premier League season - in one game. He also made himself available as a passing option when defenders were under pressure, which De Gea shies away from. He had an exceptional game in terms of shot stopping, nobody is saying you don't need to be an excellent shot stopper at times but lets not pretend he wasn't considerably more proactive than De Gea would have been in that game.

As for Liverpool, are you seriously pointing me to a game that happened 7 years ago? Nobody is disputing he was better at leaving his line when he was being coached by Hoek, the issue is how much he has regressed since Hoek moved on. His distribution was much better under him too. And then they allowed him to bring his old Atletico coach in and he reverted back to the goalkeeper we signed in 2011. And the regression in those areas of his game ever since has been evident, particularly over the past 3 years it has been alarming. He can be coached to do it better again probably, but it's never going to be instinctive, as such you will always see delays in his thinking and it's the delays that cost you goals.
 

mitchmouse

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Just to inform you, I'm a trained GK coach, so yeah I understand the position well.

You are working on the principle that the only way to play that position is to come off your line repeatedly.
This isn't the case.

Yes DDG could come off his line more, that's evident, but to say that's the reason for United conceding goals isn't entirely correct.

DDG has saved United a lot more than cost United.

Whats interesting to me is EtH wants to play on the front foot, possession based football with a fairly high press. Yet he was happy to see Henderson leave on loan, despite our number one keeper supposedly not being suitable for this style of football and Henderson apparently being better on the ball.

I think people need to face it, DDG is a very good GK, and his positives far outweigh his negatives, and so is a benefit to the team as a number one. There really isn't a huge amount of better GKs than him in world football today.

As someone has suggested also, Romero was plying his trade with a relegated team in Serie A last season.
How many goals did he let in there?!
well I played in goal for more than 40 years (for two seasons at a better level than I could ver have dreamed) and I can tell you things have changed so much over the years. there was a time when anyone under 5ft 11in wouldn't be considered, there was a time when you didn't have to be good with the ball at your feet etc etc.

then we had the time where supposedly the French clown was a great keeper...

DDG is nowhere near a great all-round keeper by today's standards and not anywhere close to the top two we've had in the past. I don't even put him in the top three
 

Champ

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I'm not sure if you're serious at this point. Real Madrid wanted him what, 7 or 8 years ago? And whether they need goalkeepers is irrelevant, you're saying he's one of the best so if he was available top clubs would want him to replace their goalkeepers if he was an upgrade. At the time a) he was a lot better at leaving his line than he has been over the past 5 years and b) Real had a team used to a goalkeeper not leaving his line too often. Would they touch him now? Of course they wouldn't. He'll be available on a free transfer in a year, lets see where he ends up.

Courtios didn't need to leave his box because his team sat deep and looked to counter attack, so balls in behind the defenders weren't happening. And let's not pretend sweeping only happens outside of the penalty area either. However he did deal with 3 crosses into the box in that game off the top of my head, which is almost a third of De Gea's total in the entire 38 game Premier League season - in one game. He also made himself available as a passing option when defenders were under pressure, which De Gea shies away from. He had an exceptional game in terms of shot stopping, nobody is saying you don't need to be an excellent shot stopper at times but lets not pretend he wasn't considerably more proactive than De Gea would have been in that game.

As for Liverpool, are you seriously pointing me to a game that happened 7 years ago? Nobody is disputing he was better at leaving his line when he was being coached by Hoek, the issue is how much he has regressed since Hoek moved on. His distribution was much better under him too. And then they allowed him to bring his old Atletico coach in and he reverted back to the goalkeeper we signed in 2011. And the regression in those areas of his game ever since has been evident, particularly over the past 3 years it has been alarming. He can be coached to do it better again probably, but it's never going to be instinctive, as such you will always see delays in his thinking and it's the delays that cost you goals.
So you agree that DDG can do it.

You agree that it's very possible to win games when a keeper doesn't leave their box often.

You agree that a team can play multiple different ways to win football matches.

Now I agree with you that DDG has regressed slightly in the past few years, however that certainly doesn't make him a bad GK, far from it.

Also, just as a note, PSG enquired three years ago about DDG, Real Madrid enquired the year before. A marked difference from 7/8 years ago.
 

JB7

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So you agree that DDG can do it.

You agree that it's very possible to win games when a keeper doesn't leave their box often.

You agree that a team can play multiple different ways to win football matches.

Now I agree with you that DDG has regressed slightly in the past few years, however that certainly doesn't make him a bad GK, far from it.

Also, just as a note, PSG enquired three years ago about DDG, Real Madrid enquired the year before. A marked difference from 7/8 years ago.
You didn't read my last post very well then because as I said, while De Gea is well suited to low block teams who play direct football - which is pretty much what Real did in that final - Courtios still dealt with a third as many balls into the box in one game as De Gea all season, you don't have to leave the box to be proactive, particularly when your centre halves are playing on the edge of the box. That said, en route to the final they were very nearly undone multiple times trying to play that type of football and it wasn't until throwing caution to the wind that they won those ties. This is irrelevant to us obviously as it's clear how Ten Hag wants to play and a low block does not enter into that philosophy.

Did they? Are there concrete sources on those or was that just paper talk while De Gea was waiting for us to him that ridiculous contract? Again, irrelevant given that it was several years ago and since then he's literally only had one adequate season - and in that season been the worst proactive goalkeeper in the division.

I also didn't say he was a bad goalkeeper. He's not a top level goalkeeper or anywhere near rounded enough for a top club, but that doesn't him a bad goalkeeper. He'll end up at a decent club who play deep and there is nothing wrong with that.
 

SadlerMUFC

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Glad you know me better than I know myself :lol:

I guess that three part training course I went on meant nothing then.

Also glad you seem to know better than Jose, Sir Alex, Ole, Erik ten Hag, Carrick, Giggs, Rangnick, LVG and Moyes. You must be a great manager!

Anyhow, despite your rather lackluster put downs, I'll carry on.

The Rodriguez goal is a cracker. Difficult for a GK to take being beaten at the near post like that, but it's hit with power and precision right in the apex of the goal.
Not really a huge amount DDG, not any keeper could do about that. Even the commentator agrees with me on that one!

Can't see the Messi one, blocked unfortunately.

Am I right in thinking you believe the Rodriguez goal to be DDGs fault?
I'd love to know how if so.

Romero was in goal 16 times last season and conceded 33 goals. An alarming stat surely even you would agree?
If you really are a goal keeper coach you are a horrible one if you don't see what's wrong with those goals.

For the Rodriguez goal I would have saved it easily. De Gea's is standing on his goal line and about 3-4 feet towards the middle. He should be out at the edge of his 6 and then it's a shot straight at him. Easy save as he pushes it over the net. And if you really think that "even the commentator said so" is a good argument, then I'm way out of your league and you should just stop now. Most commentators are complete morons. Was it a good shot? Of course it was. It was a bullet. Was it easily savable if the keeper is in the right position? Absolutely...

For the Messi goal, he is blinded because of his positioning. Jones is taking away his whole left side. The only place Messi can shoot is far post. So De Gea needs to be cheating a step or two to his right. Not only will he then see the shot better, but he will also make the save

As for Romero, like I said, I can't count for what has happened since he left. All I can count for is what happened when he was at United, and as I have shown, the numbers aren't even close. You of course brought up the fact that he played in the cup comps, so I showed De Gea's cup comp numbers. But I get it. You're a De Gea fan boy. You may actually be Goldbridge in disguise. As for your comments about the other managers who kept playing him, if that's your argument then I guess you have never questioned any decision any manager has made? Give your head a shake...
 

Gandalf

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Just read a ton of posts in this thread and I have no fecking idea what is going on with Kasper. I wonder if there is a PM function for people who want to have a personal pissing contest over whether DDG is any good or not?
 

criticalanalysis

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@SadlerMUFC @JB7

I know we should use the 'debate the post and not the poster' etiquette but I recall this person saying Elanga has superb touch, technique and balance very recently.

Make of it what you will.
 

mitchmouse

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Meanwhile.... I'm a bit surprised Kasper wants to go to Nice. Maybe he wants warmer climes like his dad did after 1999, but he's only 35 which means he still has the likelihood of 4-5 good years left. I think he's a much better keeper than some here give him credit for. Not as good as his dad, but Peter was one of the best (maybe the best) of all time
 
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Godfather

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Got a little worried from the title. But relieve washed over me in an awesome way when I read Nice
 

Ayoba

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Why do Leicester want to get rid? I thought he was a good keeper for them?
 

jeff gurr

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Why do Leicester want to get rid? I thought he was a good keeper for them?
Kasper appears to be the one who initiated the move & Leicester have facilitated him by cancelling the last year of his contract. He was supposedly on 130 a week so him leaving will help with the payroll.
There are rumours of friction at the club & that Kasper was a part of it but it's unsubstantiated .
 
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