Keir Starmer Labour Leader

Halftrack

Full Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2014
Messages
3,064
Location
Chair
I like how centrists took over a left wing party, and are now going "the sooner all these leftists get out of my party the better" when the leftists try to regain some control over it.
 

nimic

have you watched hornblower yet?
Scout
Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Messages
22,876
Location
And I'm all out of bubblegum.
I like how centrists took over a left wing party, and are now going "the sooner all these leftists get out of my party the better" when the leftists try to regain some control over it.
When they lose the next election too, the blame is going to be on the bitter leftist corbynistas who would rather have the Tories in power than get behind a pragmatist who wants to actually win an election. Or something.

Remember, when leftists lose elections it's because they pushed the centrist voters away, but when centrists lose elections it's because the leftist voters spitefully abandoned them.
 

CassiusClaymore

Is it Gaizka Mendieta?
Scout
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Messages
30,105
Location
None of your business mate
When they lose the next election too, the blame is going to be on the bitter leftist corbynistas who would rather have the Tories in power than get behind a pragmatist who wants to actually win an election. Or something.

Remember, when leftists lose elections it's because they pushed the centrist voters away, but when centrists lose elections it's because the leftist voters spitefully abandoned them.
Amen.
 

Buster15

Go on Didier
Joined
Aug 28, 2018
Messages
7,994
Location
Bristol
Supports
Bristol Rovers
When they lose the next election too, the blame is going to be on the bitter leftist corbynistas who would rather have the Tories in power than get behind a pragmatist who wants to actually win an election. Or something.

Remember, when leftists lose elections it's because they pushed the centrist voters away, but when centrists lose elections it's because the leftist voters spitefully abandoned them.
Your last paragraph should add. When the left lose an election disasterousally, as in 2019, it is because the voters turned away from the party.
 

ZupZup

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
2,079
Location
W3104
I really don’t get how what the Labour Party are doing now is not significantly worse than what the EHRC uncovered.

The wholesale targeting of left wing members. Efforts to intimidate, suspend and investigate them on the most spurious grounds. There is no consistency and absolute hypocrisy in how they treat one member compared to the next… purely based on how loyal to the leader they are.

What happened to independence and due process in the disciplinary process? It feels like it’s now several magnitudes worse than what the EHRC criticised them for.
 

Maticmaker

Full Member
Joined
Nov 8, 2018
Messages
2,782
"As reported, it means ditching the 1-member-1-vote scheme" ..... one man, one vote...once! ...now where have we heard that before?

Sir Keir needs to watch Boris closely now as the PM is about to shoot himself in both feet ...this time. Boris's grand plans for a Climate Change Strategy and for 'Levelling up' cannot both work, so which one will gain him most votes come the next GE.... on your mark Starmer!!
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
16,960
Location
The Zone
Summed up pretty well here I think.

Granted a lot can change in a year but

Starmer can succeed, and he deserves our support - Owen Jones

The new Labour leader is starting in unenviable circumstances, but anyone with progressive sympathies should swing fully behind him

https://www.theguardian.com/comment...er-labour-leader-committing-policies-the-left
The Labour Party is full of well intentioned and well meaningful progressives who will for whatever reason take on face value and in good faith everything the labour right says. Insert Simpsons wallet inspector joke here -
 

Smores

Full Member
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
22,735
Feel very dirty having voted for the lying scumbag. The centrists are so assured in their election winning capabilities and yet they have to rig the system to even win their own.
 

nickm

Full Member
Joined
May 20, 2001
Messages
8,202
Feel very dirty having voted for the lying scumbag. The centrists are so assured in their election winning capabilities and yet they have to rig the system to even win their own.
I dunno, if you want to win elections it helps if the people who elect the leaders, are accountable to, and intouch with what voters want. We call these people 'MPs'.
 

Smores

Full Member
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
22,735
I dunno, if you want to win elections it helps if the people who elect the leaders, are accountable to, and intouch with what voters want. We call these people 'MPs'.
Cool story, i was wondering what the sheeps opinion would be. Tell me did you read the story and quickly come up with your defence or did you just read it from the usual centrists first?

I did wonder If defending this one would be a step too far but you people have no shame apparently.
 

sun_tzu

The Art of Bore
Joined
Aug 23, 2010
Messages
17,649
Location
Still waiting for the Youthquake
Cool story, i was wondering what the sheeps opinion would be. Tell me did you read the story and quickly come up with your defence or did you just read it from the usual centrists first?

I did wonder If defending this one would be a step too far but you people have no shame apparently.
For what its worth I think its a terrible idea

Id just stop people becoming members after an election is announced - believe the conservatives do similar - that way only people who have been members prior to the election being called can vote so no sudden influx of people who register to vote then disappear till the next election.

Certainly don't think the union should have 30% of votes... thats like giving conservative donors 30% of votes...

One member one vote seems fine... just make sure people are members at the time of the election being called or at last conference or at 1st Jan etc
 

nickm

Full Member
Joined
May 20, 2001
Messages
8,202
Cool story, i was wondering what the sheeps opinion would be. Tell me did you read the story and quickly come up with your defence or did you just read it from the usual centrists first?

I did wonder If defending this one would be a step too far but you people have no shame apparently.
Nah I just wanted to see how long it would take to trigger you, and it turns out it took 7 minutes which admittedly is slower than I was expecting. Because I guarantee this is a non issue on the door step.

 
Last edited:

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
5,778
Location
Manchester
Granted a lot can change in a year but

Starmer can succeed, and he deserves our support - Owen Jones



The Labour Party is full of well intentioned and well meaningful progressives who will for whatever reason take on face value and in good faith everything the labour right says. Insert Simpsons wallet inspector joke here -
To be fair, even I was supportive of Starmer at first. His 10 pledges made sense. Unfortunately he is now a proven liar.
 

Sweet Square

Full Member
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
16,960
Location
The Zone
Nah I just wanted to see how long it would take to trigger you
Sensible politics is back!

To be fair, even I was supportive of Starmer at first. His 10 pledges made sense. Unfortunately he is now a proven liar.
Yeah Starmer is more right wing than I thought and he really did just lie to get the leadership role. Still the guy is a knighted sir and former a head of the Director of Public Prosecutions, hardly the career of a lefty/socialist.
Although not that it matters, the damage was done with failure of reforms in Corbyn years.
 

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
5,778
Location
Manchester
Sensible politics is back!


Yeah Starmer is more right wing than I thought and he really did just lie to get the leadership role. Still the guy is a knighted sir and former a head of the Director of Public Prosecutions, hardly the career of a lefty/socialist.
Although not that it matters, the damage was done with failure of reforms in Corbyn years.
True. I was hoping he would fulfill his promises rather than expecting it, to be honest.

Instead he seems he'll bent on ruining the Labour party. Soon we can vote for Tories or Red Tories.
 

TheGame

Full Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Messages
10,031
For what its worth I think its a terrible idea

Id just stop people becoming members after an election is announced - believe the conservatives do similar - that way only people who have been members prior to the election being called can vote so no sudden influx of people who register to vote then disappear till the next election.

Certainly don't think the union should have 30% of votes... thats like giving conservative donors 30% of votes...

One member one vote seems fine... just make sure people are members at the time of the election being called or at last conference or at 1st Jan etc
That sounds like a possible idea however if he did that, no doubt people would be up in arms about it so he can't really select an option which isn't going to cause controversy. The current system is rife for sabotage including by the Tories.
 

TheGame

Full Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Messages
10,031
Oooh that nasty "left".

How?
There has been several cases of left wing commentators like Jones for example sowing division so to call it out is hypocritical. The issues are on both sides not just one. More importantly the Party right, left, centre can’t get its act together to ensure the Tories are voted out. That’s the frustrating thing.
 

jeff_goldblum

Full Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
3,177
Yes because the left have tried for unity as well? Owen Jones has been one of the worst to cause division.
In short, yes - the bulk of 'the left' backed Starmer in the leadership election precisely because he presented himself as the unity candidate. If the left hadn't been willing to compromise he wouldn't have won.

By any standard, over the last 7 years the left has consistently proven itself more open to compromise than the centre and right. The centre and right have demonstrated from day one that they will be happy with nothing less than ultimate control of the party and the complete extrication of the left (they started purging the second Corbyn got on the ballot in 2015), whilst all the left have ever wanted is a somewhat progressive policy platform (such as the one Starmer promised in his campaign but has now entirely abandoned).
 

Smores

Full Member
Joined
May 18, 2011
Messages
22,735
Nah I just wanted to see how long it would take to trigger you, and it turns out it took 7 minutes which admittedly is slower than I was expecting. Because I guarantee this is a non issue on the door step.
Unfortunately Starmer is great at focusing on non-issues that split the party and terrible at holding the government to account.

People won't trust the man who has broken nearly every promise he made to get elected. It's naive to think this stuff doesn't have impacts.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/trackers/keir-starmer-approval-rating

Look at the state of that 59% think he's doing a bad job. Just 20% think he's doing a good job.
 

Fluctuation0161

Full Member
Joined
Aug 8, 2016
Messages
5,778
Location
Manchester
There has been several cases of left wing commentators like Jones for example sowing division so to call it out is hypocritical. The issues are on both sides not just one. More importantly the Party right, left, centre can’t get its act together to ensure the Tories are voted out. That’s the frustrating thing.
Care to share an example?
 

TheGame

Full Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2002
Messages
10,031
In short, yes - the bulk of 'the left' backed Starmer in the leadership election precisely because he presented himself as the unity candidate. If the left hadn't been willing to compromise he wouldn't have won.

By any standard, over the last 7 years the left has consistently proven itself more open to compromise than the centre and right. The centre and right have demonstrated from day one that they will be happy with nothing less than ultimate control of the party and the complete extrication of the left (they started purging the second Corbyn got on the ballot in 2015), whilst all the left have ever wanted is a somewhat progressive policy platform (such as the one Starmer promised in his campaign but has now entirely abandoned).
That's a very biased view. Was it not Momentum under Corbyn trying to oust Candidates who didn't agree with the left's view? Are we just ignoring the constant sniping by people such as McCluskey and Lavery? Do you mean the same policy platform which led to an abysmal defeat in 2019? I'd wait to see what policies are included in a Labour manifesto before reserving judgement. He'd be smart to select the better policies and replace the others with ones which appeal more to the electorate.

If you ever disagreed with the left across social media platforms you got called a 'red Tory'. If you mentioned the Labour success of Blair, you just got hounded. I've not agreed with Starmer on a number of aspects including supporting the Brexit deal by Johnson. I struggle to see any progress for Labour unless they heal the divisions caused by both sides. Overall Labour needs to appeal to a wider electorate to get elected and implement any policies. Something both sides are struggling to understand!
 

jeff_goldblum

Full Member
Joined
Dec 6, 2011
Messages
3,177
That's a very biased view. Was it not Momentum under Corbyn trying to oust Candidates who didn't agree with the left's view? Are we just ignoring the constant sniping by people such as McCluskey and Lavery? Do you mean the same policy platform which led to an abysmal defeat in 2019? I'd wait to see what policies are included in a Labour manifesto before reserving judgement. He'd be smart to select the better policies and replace the others with ones which appeal more to the electorate.

If you ever disagreed with the left across social media platforms you got called a 'red Tory'. If you mentioned the Labour success of Blair, you just got hounded. I've not agreed with Starmer on a number of aspects including supporting the Brexit deal by Johnson. I struggle to see any progress for Labour unless they heal the divisions caused by both sides. Overall Labour needs to appeal to a wider electorate to get elected and implement any policies. Something both sides are struggling to understand!
The left wanted mandatory reselection, which would allow local members of all political stripes more say in who they spend their time campaigning for rather than mates/ideological bedfellows of the leadership being foisted on CLPs (especially in safe seats), denying local activists the chance to represent their own constituencies. The reason that was seen as a bad thing by the right is because they (justifiably) have no faith in their ability to attract like-minded people to join the party or to win over existing members. In practice it probably would lead to a more left wing PLP, but it would also lead to one much more in touch with local communities instead of one dominated by well-connected career politicians who barely know the place they're mean to represent. During the Corbyn years my MP resigned and the left NEC pulled some skulduggery to keep a local candidate off the shortlist and set up their preferred candidate for the win. That shit is annoying and counterproductive regardless of who is doing it.

A lot of your post is reflective of how different the bar is for left and right. Corbyn and the left were demonised as Stalinist for trying to make the party more accountable to the activist base which it relies on to win elections, Starmer and the right get a free pass for actively purging left wing members and trying to rig internal elections. After a leadership election where Labour staffers allied to the right engaged in an active campaign to block left wing Labour members from voting, Corbyn came in and made legitimate attempts to reach out to the party and include a range of views in his Shadow Cabinet. After a leadership election where the left backed Starmer in huge numbers, he responds by going back on every assurance he gave them and sacking one of the two left wing MPs in the Shadow Cabinet from the Education brief for the crime of being too aligned with the interests of teachers. The same Labour members who voted Corbyn in voted in Watson, a clear sign that they were willing to work with centrists, Watson immediately turned round and started slagging them off in the media and calling for them to be kicked out of the party. The only crime the left had committed at that point was daring not to vote for a group of people who had no vision and a massive sense of entitlement.

I mention the manifesto because Starmer's pitch as party leader was to build on the 2017 manifesto, it was one of his 10 pledges that convinced many on the left to put their faith in him. Again, he's repaid that faith by tearing each and every pledge up, marginalising the left of the PLP and pressing the purge button on left wing members. I'm not gonna back anything Lavery or McCluskey have said as more often than not I disagree with both, but the average left wing Labour Party member has every reason to distrust and dislike the centre/right of the party - they have consistently demonstrated from day one that they don't play fair and that they never had any intention of trying to win an election whilst Corbyn was in charge. On the other hand, the left, barring a vocal minority, has repeatedly attempted to engage in good faith with the rest of the party and every time it's been thrown back in their face. The right can lie, cheat and steal and undermine the party's electoral prospects with impunity whilst the left is expected to stay quiet, have no input and go out to campaign and vote for people who want them out of the party.

That's why it's annoying when people come out with things like 'both sides needs to compromise'. The left has compromised, a lot of us voted for Watson in 2015 and Starmer in 2020 precisely because we were willing to compromise. Our mistake was being daft enough to think the the right was capable of doing the same.
 

DOTA

wants Amber Rudd to call him a naughty boy
Joined
Jul 3, 2012
Messages
20,662
I highly recommend reading Starmer's essay that is currently doing the rounds on social media.

No idea who wrote it for him.
I am absolutely not reading 14,000 words from Keir Starmer.