Keir Starmer Labour Leader

Maticmaker

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Oh yeah well you're spot on, the US and UK electoral systems are very much set up to disadvantage the less unscrupulous parties but what does that actually result in in terms of the vote (counted fairly)? Maybe 5-10% at most? In countries where you get shot in the head by police stationed outside the polling station it's quite a different level of impossible to dislodge the establishment party.
I don't know exactly, but even 5-10% on a turnout of 65% of a 48M registered voter electorate in the UK (2019 figures), is still in the region of 3M+ votes unfairly treated or ignored, or not cast at all.

Of course physical reprisals (or the threat of) are more obvious and more effective, either in debarring someone from voting, or getting them to vote in a particular way. The point is that voting systems (all over the world) and therefore voters rights, can and are 'violated' sometimes obviously, sometimes succinctly, but in all cases they make a difference to those who either through manipulation of the rules are prevented from voting, or coerced into voting a particular way, or intimidated into not voting.

If you are one of the 3M+ voters (10%)whose vote has been subject to manipulation then your rights have been violated, just as much as if someone had put a gun to your head. In some ways its more insidious because in many cases you don't know that your vote has been violated, at least when threatened physically you know your rights have been denied... as well as probably experiencing an unexpected bowel movement!
 

TwoSheds

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I don't know exactly, but even 5-10% on a turnout of 65% of a 48M registered voter electorate in the UK (2019 figures), is still in the region of 3M+ votes unfairly treated or ignored, or not cast at all.

Of course physical reprisals (or the threat of) are more obvious and more effective, either in debarring someone from voting, or getting them to vote in a particular way. The point is that voting systems (all over the world) and therefore voters rights, can and are 'violated' sometimes obviously, sometimes succinctly, but in all cases they make a difference to those who either through manipulation of the rules are prevented from voting, or coerced into voting a particular way, or intimidated into not voting.

If you are one of the 3M+ voters (10%)whose vote has been subject to manipulation then your rights have been violated, just as much as if someone had put a gun to your head. In some ways its more insidious because in many cases you don't know that your vote has been violated, at least when threatened physically you know your rights have been denied... as well as probably experiencing an unexpected bowel movement!
Couldn't agree more. However, all major elections involving lots of different "moving parts" and millions of people are inevitably in some ways slightly unfair, whether intentional or not. The extent of that unfairness is very important though - I'm not condoning the UK and US voting systems but the extent of their unfairness is of an entirely different magnitude compared to, for example, a dictatorship or a place that has a free election which is undermined by what amounts to a coup (e.g. the US intervening in Venezuela or Bolivia in recent years).
 

Maticmaker

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Couldn't agree more. However, all major elections involving lots of different "moving parts" and millions of people are inevitably in some ways slightly unfair, whether intentional or not. The extent of that unfairness is very important though - I'm not condoning the UK and US voting systems but the extent of their unfairness is of an entirely different magnitude compared to, for example, a dictatorship or a place that has a free election which is undermined by what amounts to a coup (e.g. the US intervening in Venezuela or Bolivia in recent years).
But that is the very issue, like 'Caesar's wife....' every result should be beyond reproach! Every vote rejected because e.g. in a postal ballot it arrived late or was misplaced, or in normal voting registered voters missed out, or whatever, other than a deliberately spoiled ballot paper then every vote should count, whoever suffers as a result of an error, whether intentional or not is disenfranchised and in most democracies they wont even know!
We have seen when a count of the votes is close then a second or third or even fourth count is made... and so it should, but what about when its not close? The phrase well it "wouldn't have made any difference", is still disenfranchising to those whose vote is lost, miscounted, removed etc.
I previously mentioned the US and what arose because Trump found one or two errors and 'picked away' at them, until this 'picking' process itself was fully discredited. For future reference there is now an even stronger need to stop saying " its only a handful of unfair or misplaced votes", because in future the election results will be picked over not just for voter swings etc. but also for fairness, whether this be malpractice, mistake, the influence of ''outsiders' (bots etc.) on the electorate, etc.


Elections, how they are organised and operate is the issue, as far as I am concerned, not military coups. Obviously a military coup doesn't even bother with voting (and all of that democratic nonsense) its a straightforward power play, to oust an elected Government and/or a previous Government coming into power by naked force of arms. Whether any perhaps preceding 'election' was its self 'free and fair' is the crucial question, and whether all so called free elections are truly democratic relies on the whether every vote is as valid as the next.
 

TwoSheds

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But that is the very issue, like 'Caesar's wife....' every result should be beyond reproach! Every vote rejected because e.g. in a postal ballot it arrived late or was misplaced, or in normal voting registered voters missed out, or whatever, other than a deliberately spoiled ballot paper then every vote should count, whoever suffers as a result of an error, whether intentional or not is disenfranchised and in most democracies they wont even know!
We have seen when a count of the votes is close then a second or third or even fourth count is made... and so it should, but what about when its not close? The phrase well it "wouldn't have made any difference", is still disenfranchising to those whose vote is lost, miscounted, removed etc.
I previously mentioned the US and what arose because Trump found one or two errors and 'picked away' at them, until this 'picking' process itself was fully discredited. For future reference there is now an even stronger need to stop saying " its only a handful of unfair or misplaced votes", because in future the election results will be picked over not just for voter swings etc. but also for fairness, whether this be malpractice, mistake, the influence of ''outsiders' (bots etc.) on the electorate, etc.


Elections, how they are organised and operate is the issue, as far as I am concerned, not military coups. Obviously a military coup doesn't even bother with voting (and all of that democratic nonsense) its a straightforward power play, to oust an elected Government and/or a previous Government coming into power by naked force of arms. Whether any perhaps preceding 'election' was its self 'free and fair' is the crucial question, and whether all so called free elections are truly democratic relies on the whether every vote is as valid as the next.
Don't disagree with the concept but reality doesn't work like that. All systems are imperfect. It's all a hierarchy - proper voting systems > US and UK voting systems > total shambles and/or blatantly rigged voting systems (e.g. Russia) > no voting at all.

But even proper voting systems involve mistakes and, more significantly, disenfranchised voters. All we can strive for is to improve our voting systems and societal engagement rather than make them worse as is happening in the US and UK. The perfect is ever the enemy of the good.
 

Raven

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Reading the replies in this thread just remind me why the Tories have been in power for 12 years and are likely to win again next time. We have corrupt, inhuman bastards running the country into the ground, but apparently its the opposition who just aren't good enough to vote for..
If voting Labour guarantees another generation of neoliberalism, the choice becomes much more difficult.
 

sun_tzu

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thats pretty disingenuous selective
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Keir_Starmer
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Jeremy_Corbyn
.................Aware of..........Positive Opinion..............Negative Opinion............Neutral.....................Net
Starmer......91% .......................17% ...................................42% ...............................32%...................... -25%
Corbyn........96% ......................20% ..................................59% ................................18%...................... -39%
 

Fluctuation0161

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Not at all.
Climate change is definitely starting to be taken seriously by the public. And so I would have been surprised if their figure was not increasing.
And their policies are closest to the left within Labour which is currently being actively purged by Keir and Co.
 

Smores

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thats pretty disingenuous selective
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Keir_Starmer
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/explore/public_figure/Jeremy_Corbyn
.................Aware of..........Positive Opinion..............Negative Opinion............Neutral.....................Net
Starmer......91% .......................17% ...................................42% ...............................32%...................... -25%
Corbyn........96% ......................20% ..................................59% ................................18%...................... -39%
What you've just linked to shows exactly what's quoted? He's less popular

Christ looking at Starmers tracker polling it's even worse, look how badly he's performing across all of them. He's increasingly seen as weak, incompetent, untrustworthy and the majority think he should stand down.

He's simply unelectable at this stage. It's time for centrists like yourself who claim to care so much about electability to start calling for him to go isn't it?
 
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Fluctuation0161

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Reading the replies in this thread just remind me why the Tories have been in power for 12 years and are likely to win again next time. We have corrupt, inhuman bastards running the country into the ground, but apparently its the opposition who just aren't good enough to vote for..
Same as the previous elections under Corbyn then... except this time the "opposition" offer very little difference to the "corrupt inhuman bastards" running the country. Unless you can explain to me any specific key policy differences?
 

Maticmaker

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Don't disagree with the concept but reality doesn't work like that. All systems are imperfect. It's all a hierarchy - proper voting systems > US and UK voting systems > total shambles and/or blatantly rigged voting systems (e.g. Russia) > no voting at all.

But even proper voting systems involve mistakes and, more significantly, disenfranchised voters. All we can strive for is to improve our voting systems and societal engagement rather than make them worse as is happening in the US and UK. The perfect is ever the enemy of the good.
At the moment that is true. for me the Peoples Poet Edgar Albert Guest had it right ...'Keep Going'... (in essence don't give up)

My argument, especially in a time of increasing 'echo chamber' communication and fake news, is that perfection has to be attained in terms of voting systems, whatever the cost, there has to be a line in the sand drawn with election systems (due and proper process) against which people can trust their votes will be counted and counted fairly and the result unchallenged.
It is true mistakes can be made 'honestly', but they must be admitted and then seen to be corrected. At the moment we seem to be heading towards a time when if we are not careful, nobody will believe anything, especially if they think it differs from what they believe to be the 'truth'

(Pontius Pilate -Roman Procurator of Judea -33AD - at the trial of Jesus ... "the Truth, what is that?")
 

nickm

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I think that's an optimistic interpretation really. Labour only saw a +2 rise in areas where they're traditionally popular while the Greens grabbed +6. That reads as pretty awful for Starmer to me, and I'm not particularly anti-Starmer.
Anything that splits the Tory vote is good for labour IMO. In the South, its been to the lib dems.
 

nickm

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If voting Labour guarantees another generation of neoliberalism, the choice becomes much more difficult.
Whatever this weird post Brexit protectionist Tory populist economic confection is, it's not neoliberalism.
 

TwoSheds

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At the moment that is true. for me the Peoples Poet Edgar Albert Guest had it right ...'Keep Going'... (in essence don't give up)

My argument, especially in a time of increasing 'echo chamber' communication and fake news, is that perfection has to be attained in terms of voting systems, whatever the cost, there has to be a line in the sand drawn with election systems (due and proper process) against which people can trust their votes will be counted and counted fairly and the result unchallenged.
It is true mistakes can be made 'honestly', but they must be admitted and then seen to be corrected. At the moment we seem to be heading towards a time when if we are not careful, nobody will believe anything, especially if they think it differs from what they believe to be the 'truth'

(Pontius Pilate -Roman Procurator of Judea -33AD - at the trial of Jesus ... "the Truth, what is that?")
Well ok but thinking about complicated things in black and white terms is quite dangerous, appealing though it is. I of course wish you every luck with your electoral reform though! :D
 

Maticmaker

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Well ok but thinking about complicated things in black and white terms is quite dangerous, appealing though it is. I of course wish you every luck with your electoral reform though! :D
Do you think voting is a complicated thing?
I agree registering real, or authenticated voters can be 'messy' (devils in the detail) especially if, as I understand, in the US each State apparently has its own rules, even for the federal elections. However the voting process should be able to be carried out simply and outputs confirmed and authenticated, if we can send people into space, replace human organs in our bodies, understand DNA, ...even persuade people to buy electric cars !!! etc. then surely the voting process should be 'easy-peasy' .

I think the problem is, that making a voting system perfect isn't important enough...yet! However if a certain politician can persuade thousands of supporters, he was cheated, and have hordes of people storming the citadel of Government creating havoc and endangering lives, what happens next time?

Thanks for your good wishes, somehow I think it will get lost among all the 'chatter' surrounding politics. :)
 
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TwoSheds

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Do you think voting is a complicated thing?
I agree registering real, or authenticated voters can be 'messy' (devils in the detail) especially if, as I understand, in the US each State apparently has its own rules, even for the federal elections. However the voting process should be able to be carried out simply and outputs confirmed and authenticated, if we can send people into space, replace human organs in our bodies, understand DNA, ...even persuade people to buy electric cars !!! etc. then surely the voting process should be 'easy-peasy' .

I think the problem is, that making a voting system perfect isn't important enough...yet! However if a certain politician can persuade thousands of supporters, he was cheated, and have hordes of people storming the citadel of Government creating havoc and endangering lives, what happens next time?

Thanks for your good wishes, somehow I think it will get lost among all the 'chatter' surrounding politics. :)
Given nobody in the history of the universe has ever come up with a perfect large scale voting or political system then yes I think it's difficult!

Perhaps there isn't enough focus on it - in fact in many countries the focus is on trying to rig the system in the establishment's favour which is a massive problem. I would love for better voting and electoral systems to be a big focus of the electorate, absolutely with you on that.

However, even if there was a big focus, I still don't think it would be perfect. Just like no other system we have is ever perfect - healthcare, transport, education etc etc. All you can do is try to do it better in my view - continuous improvement. I suspect nobody in government would even know what those words mean in the UK though.
 

Maticmaker

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Given nobody in the history of the universe has ever come up with a perfect large scale voting or political system then yes I think it's difficult!
Nobody has been up against it like we shall be in future and then the degree of difficulty will be reduced, 'we have the technology'... we now need the will!

Perhaps there isn't enough focus on it - in fact in many countries the focus is on trying to rig the system in the establishment's favour which is a massive problem. I would love for better voting and electoral systems to be a big focus of the electorate, absolutely with you on that.
The first casualty is truth!
With much of the media employing 'news editors' not news reporters (feeding the 24/7 cycle) and social media in particular now a growing cauldron of misinterpretation, misleading information, 'echo chambers', etc. With politicians seemingly being able to lie with impunity, we need something that delivers for each and every voter.... the least we can do is give them the assured right to have their vote counted.

However, even if there was a big focus, I still don't think it would be perfect. Just like no other system we have is ever perfect - healthcare, transport, education etc etc. All you can do is try to do it better in my view - continuous improvement. I suspect nobody in government would even know what those words mean in the UK though.
Of course in any system there will be errors, mistakes, etc. these can however be rectified with the right recovery structures, vigilance and determination. As I referred to earlier when the count is close, recounts take place, because there is a need to do so to ensure the correct result. When it is not a close result, does that mean there are no errors, mistakes, votes discounted that should have been counted, etc?

IMO the answer to Pilates question..."truth, what is that"? Should be ...the truth is a voting system that correctly includes and counts every valid vote and declares unequivocally every voter has been able to fulfill their franchise to vote in public elections and have such a vote correctly counted.

When we keep telling ourselves it cannot be done...then guess what, it won't be! :rolleyes:
 

Foxbatt

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The man is a disaster. He can't even organise a piss up in a brewery.
The conference itself was a disaster. The lounge for International Delegates ( usually foreign diplomats ) had a small room with just 6 chairs. Not even coffee or tea. Normal dpl procedure is that seating is reserved for them in the conference hall. Labour didn't this time and some of the diplomats didn't have seats. The man got booed by the audience. A considerable number.
The Tories reserved a lounge big enough to have events there with all the facilities.
For sure the Tories are going to be the government unless Labour kick him out and get someone else who is electable.
 

Maticmaker

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Not for me’ to object to Saudi Arabian takeover of Newcastle United, Keir Starmer says
Labour leader says decision is matter for independent regulator
Perhaps Starmer is in training for PM, and his role model is Francis Urquhart..."You might think that, but I couldn't possibly comment"
 

Maticmaker

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Starmer only has slightly more conviction than Johnson. Maybe that is his role model.
Well he may think "nobody (including me) has managed to lay a glove on Boris.... even within his own party ...mmh! There's an idea."

Personally I would recommend Starmer takes a leaf out of Rashford's play book!!
 

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Boris Johnson is a man who throws shit at a wall. He acts like he's for anything the audience likes as long as he's in front of them in a desire to be liked.
To the people who like him the evidence that he actively works against them causes cognitive dissonance and they dismiss it out of hand, while everyone else sees him for what he is.

Keir Starmer is a centrist and some things will make people happy other things won't but he also lacks charisma to win people around. He's no Tony Blair.

Labour leader was always going to be a poisoned chalice after the illegal wars, the financial collapse, Rotherham cover up, Brexit and now Corbyn further staining Labour's reputation as being 'anti-British values'. The country has shifted hard to the right, I'm afraid. We're in a cycle of barely managed decline and unfortunately I don't see any hope in a first past the post system where rural areas are over represented and the left is so split. Completely stupid and self defeating of Labour to fight against AV in the referendum, not that the public are smart enough to listen.

The Tories have a stranglehold on politics. They have;

Gerrymandered the feck out of the seats. Cucked the BBC. Stupefied the population with cuts to education. Got everyone squabbling over table scraps and hating each other and not them with economic warfare, and cultural warfare. Claimed historic Labour voters as their own through xenophobia and brainwashing through Brexit. Denied the next generations of likely Labour voters by reducing immigration to almost nothing. Demoralised the nation by introducing post-truth politics in a way that hasn't been seen before. AND they are clamping down on protests and people applaud.

All while being protected by right wing press, being aided by right wing think tanks, and funded by rich donors who are probably laughing at us all. They are literally taking money from you and I and passing it on to the rich. feck a national insurance hike, it should have been an increase on inheritance over half a million.

This country is fecked. A million times fecked.
 

Fluctuation0161

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Boris Johnson is a man who throws shit at a wall. He acts like he's for anything the audience likes as long as he's in front of them in a desire to be liked.
To the people who like him the evidence that he actively works against them causes cognitive dissonance and they dismiss it out of hand, while everyone else sees him for what he is.

Keir Starmer is a centrist and some things will make people happy other things won't but he also lacks charisma to win people around. He's no Tony Blair.

Labour leader was always going to be a poisoned chalice after the illegal wars, the financial collapse, Rotherham cover up, Brexit and now Corbyn further staining Labour's reputation as being 'anti-British values'. The country has shifted hard to the right, I'm afraid. We're in a cycle of barely managed decline and unfortunately I don't see any hope in a first past the post system where rural areas are over represented and the left is so split. Completely stupid and self defeating of Labour to fight against AV in the referendum, not that the public are smart enough to listen.

The Tories have a stranglehold on politics. They have;

Gerrymandered the feck out of the seats. Cucked the BBC. Stupefied the population with cuts to education. Got everyone squabbling over table scraps and hating each other and not them with economic warfare, and cultural warfare. Claimed historic Labour voters as their own through xenophobia and brainwashing through Brexit. Denied the next generations of likely Labour voters by reducing immigration to almost nothing. Demoralised the nation by introducing post-truth politics in a way that hasn't been seen before. AND they are clamping down on protests and people applaud.

All while being protected by right wing press, being aided by right wing think tanks, and funded by rich donors who are probably laughing at us all. They are literally taking money from you and I and passing it on to the rich. feck a national insurance hike, it should have been an increase on inheritance over half a million.

This country is fecked. A million times fecked.
Fair. :lol:
 

Foxbatt

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At least back into the party would be a start.

Such a massive opportunity to point out the myriad of government clusterfecks but Keir prefers to score own goals.
Labour has been scoring own goals. If they didn't sabotage Corbyn he would have won the first election.