Source -
Do you know of any UK based resources to draw upon? There's not much value looking at the USA, they have such different funding regime, state structures and approach to community enterprises that's its hard to compare the two.
You’re not addressing the point. At all. I’m not disagreeing that addressing the socio-economic factors that lead to crime should be the aim. I’m just not seeing how defunding the police now is the best way to get there. If there’s ample literature with merit that suggests defunding the police is the most efficient or only way to improve equality of opportunity in society, let me see it.
This article from two academics seems like a good place to start - https://novaramedia.com/2020/06/13/would-defund-the-police-work-in-the-uk/
Huh? I’ve literally posted you a link that’s a starting point on why defunding the police and focusing investment elsewhere could be the best way to get there. My counterclaim to you would be post the evidence that more funding for the police is the way to get there. There’s only one of us attempting to engage with the literature here which is kinda unhelpful, especially when you then accuse me of deflecting.
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I followed a bit of a click chain and came across this list of resources, which might be useful reading for someone. I'll blast through some later on. They're mostly long articles and short books on replacing various bits of the criminal justice system.
I've seen the interview and the response included no acceptance that reforms or refinements of the police force is necessary. He also completely misunderstood, as you do it seems, the concept behind the campaign.
I want, foolish though it is, a Labour party that doesn't have to become Tory light to win an election. However, you can't win in the UK unless that is precisely what you do. The part of Starmer's interview that gets me, and many others in this thread, is not the defund the Police section but rather the dismissal of the BLM movement's aims and the clear indication that Labour will be happy to abandon the galvanised (largely youth) movement that grew under Corbyn to court the votes of "Middle England", partly because he knows they'll likely vote for him anyway (if they aren't completely disengaged) as the alternative is so repellent.
Thanks for sharing, looks a pretty solid starting point.
I agree that Nigel Farage backing the interview answer is not a good look, and I also agree he could have provided much better context to his answer.
No, you didn't though. You posted a link to a US based article that suggests it's better to spend money in local communities instead of the police because US police are ineffective at solving and dealing with crime (very debatable in itself as it's not using any comparative statistics or benchmarks). Nowhere in that article does it entertain the thought that money could be spent at local communities as well as better profiling and training of the police force to improve their effectiveness. Or that money could indeed be raised from elsewhere.
Not arguing. Looking to understand.
So you accuse me of deflection by citing a US study then link me to a study in Sweden that focused only on property crime and a second UK article which does not ‘demonstrate’ anything and is the study cited by the College of Policing when it asserts that a ‘recent review of the literature commissioned by HMIC concluded that there was not enough evidence to say that higher numbers of police officers was the direct cause of lower levels of crime’.
Like I said the other day - this man doesn't care to represent me, or anyone who looks like me.
I didn't think you were my enemy nor arguing! We're good.
We’re skipping arm in arm.
You seem to be forgetting the great success of the war against drugs where throwing more resources at the problem has always paid dividends. Oh wait .....
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Im going to rant a bit and its not directed at you in particular but the problem with articles like this is that they are written by people who do not have the slightest clue about day to day policing and dont seem to have the slightest clue about people in general and the nastiness of the world and it always shows.
Community based work support teams? I keep seeing shit like this. Once you’ve defunded police and try to set up your ‘Community based support teams‘, just who the feck are the people lining up to take on these jobs?
There are 40,000 assaults on Emergency workers in a year (including ambulance staff etc)
So wait, are you for or against defunding the police?
People who live for and by word will always have a tendency towards solutions that sound nice, rather than what actually works.
Has that ever been properly defined because Ive heard different people who advocate this but their idea of what it means in practice is so different that what one considers defunding the police another would not
Dont quite follow you here, are you suggesting that "community based" projects would be untrained volunteers and/or members of the public?
Maybe where the old saying "money is the root of all evil" came from?
Yup..
Obviously not, the idea is that it’s for newly trained personnel to take on these newly formed roles/jobs. My point is there isn’t going to be a long queue of people forming to take on these jobs and the majority who would do it would be the same people who do policing.
Not sure why you think this, there are thousands of projects across the UK doing just the kind of stuff we're talking about, recruitment is never an issue.
And it’s a sign of a broken system that we conceive of officers needing to put themselves in ‘the line of fire’ for issues like drugs, domestic abuse and mental health. If you’re regularly using a police force to deal with that, the remedy is clearly not in more police, but in preventative measures and investing in services designed specifically to tackle these areas.
I believe there is...and the pay doesn't need to be moderate
The people at the heart of such movements are nearly always going to be radical and strongly ideological in a way that most find off-putting. BLM’s leaders would not say it’s a different fight but at the very centre of it. It’s a tough question though as what you’re saying is entirely correct. Mainly, I’d say people should not be put off demonstrating with BLM and supporting it even if they may not share its ideological zeal - the more support it has, the more pressure for the system to reform, thereby quelling more radical voices within the movement too. And judging by the increased support for the movement, I don’t think it’s underlying ideology can be deterring people in any substantial number.
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I am sure they do. I don't think it is helpful for the movement, though. I would guess, though, it is an age thing as well: I speak now as someone who has been in too many similar fights that we didn't win and have come to the conclusion we should be more clear what we are fighting for and what we want. Otherwise movements like this get lumped with others in the public's mind, to their detriment.
Black members must be leaving in decent numbers for him to feel the need to comment, given he hasn't bothered for days.
Except it is once you factor in the initial interaction element which makes a massive difference because it’s unpredictable, it’s not in a controlled environment, it could be at any time day or night. Like I said in my first post, there are mental health workers, ambulance workers and social services workers Who are not comfortable in confrontational situations. This is why even though they have their own powers they always call police to assist them.
Shades of Occupy already.
Yeah tactically it’s a tough decision. The issue I have is I get the impression most of the people who see BLM’s opposition to capitalism and use that as a reason for not supporting it would be uncomfortable with it anyway. Is it fair to say BLM have not been clear about what they want though? The issue here seems to be the opposite, as they’ve made a number of transparent demands, and it’s the substance itself that’s causing controversy.
Only anecdotal and of dubious veracity but yes the word is Labour’s membership numbers have suffered in recent months and especially among its BAME members - although that’s probably not a bad thing for Starmer, if not outright desired.
I’m talking about outreach services where these staff are the first port of call for people having mental health episodes, rough sleepers causing problems, sex workers and their pimps, and so on. As in, they literally walk around town at night looking for these clients and work with them. I assume this isn’t a sector you’re familiar with, but if you think the police are the only people doing this kind of work you’re wrong.
