Exactly. He's going down the we can out Tory the Tories root
Keir Starmer Labour Leader
- Thread starter Damien
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You two know that teachers and child care workers aren't immune to covid, right ?
I mean, I didn't say anything about thrusting teachers into an environment that wasn't as safe as it could be or forcing anyone to go into a school if they don't want to so I don't know why you're being angsty.
It's also why I said I agree with most of what @africanspur stated and that we should make sure our emergency measures to deal with the changes are much better than they were in the initial lockdown. I think it's clear that Zoom calls or home schooling will not give the same level or type of education that children need so it's important that we prioritise being able to teach safely in the environment that gives us the best chance of educating people properly / teaching people who do not have the technology that they need BEFORE things like restaurants/pubs etc which would be low on my prioritiy list. We absolutely can't afford to have a gap where possibly 2 year groups just do not get the education that they need as it will harm us in the long term so it's a must that we prioritise education.
Huh ? I'm not trying to be angsty just interested in how someone who wants education to a be priority in an pandemic also doesn't want to thrust teachers into an unsafe environment ? If the schools are open(which is all Starmer wants)and teachers and child care workers don't turn up because it's unsafe, then they will just get fired(It also doesn't help that the unions have had no backing from the Labour leadership).
You can't have education as a priority and also a safe work environment for teachers and childcare workers or actually if you can it's certainly not something Starmer is looking for.
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Well no under the health and safety at work act that wouldn't happen
Thats why in business and in schools management will be working with staff to put in place risk assessments and mitigation measures to make the environment safe
If at the end of that process a teacher wants to withdraw their labour they can and ultimately it could end up at an employment tribunal to see if the employer had provided a safe environment appropriate ppe etc
Simple analogy but you have to provide appropriate ppe to staff on a construction site and a safe method of work - if you don't then that's on you as an employer and you couldn't sack people because you failed to provide it
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I'm sure the incoming British tribute act will be just as shit.
And here's a country that actually took the pandemic seriously and still re opening of schools went horrible wrong -
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/04/world/middleeast/coronavirus-israel-schools-reopen.html
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Nobody is. Healthcare workers, delivery drivers and supermarket workers are also not immune yet we were expected to continue to trudge to work too.
Whatever the safety protocols that we need to put in, reopening schools has to be a huge priority. To not do so is to to continue to widen already stark differences in access to education between children of different classes and backgrounds.
As I said, if necessary, close almost everything else.
Yeah and thats shit but it's doesn't mean other workers should be chucked into unsafe environments.
But that's not an option on the table, it's not something the Tories will do or anything Labour is proposing.
My point isn't to throw the others to the wolves just because we have. It is that those jobs carried on because they are key and essentially impossible to stop without causing significant issues. Maybe others will disagree but I see education as being of equal importance. Especially when the current system widens the already significant inequalities.
Because as it stands, it doesn't need to be done. If cases and hospitalisation continues to rise, they should reconsider.
I'd be interested to hear what peoples' alternatives are?
It absolutely would happen. The legal opinion right now is basically if schools comply with the DfE guidance then teachers will have a very difficult time proving it is unsafe for them, regardless of how inadequate the guidance is in places.
Maybe more effort should have out into making contingency plans? You know in case of localised lockdowns or increasing infection rates? Remote teaching, online alternatives etc.
To say "no ifs, no buts" in the middle of an unprecedented global pandemic where there are going to be lots a variables, is stupid at best.
The Daily Mail is a disgrace and should be condemned and regulated much more strictly for spreading hate and division. Not used as a mouthpiece for a progressive party. If appealing to Daily Mail readers is the new Labour strategy then once again I ask, where is the opposition?
Here is this weekends beauty. I mean, at least its not anti migrant or anti Jewish, but come on.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...s-Milne-infect-Boris-Johnson-coronavirus.html
Did Jeremy Corbyn's Marxist henchman Seumas Milne infect Boris Johnson AND Dominic Cummings with coronavirus during Downing Street visit?
It is a ridiculous stance from Labour. Even old "New Labour" can see it.
Daily Mail voters are the new target demographic, apparently that is the new, perfectly reasonable future for Labour.
Because, as I've already said, some kids don't have reliable access to the Internet or to multiple devices within a household? Many schools have already been providing online teaching, the kids who aren't receiving it tend to be those who are already disadvantaged compared to other kids.
The daily mail is not a mouthpiece of the Labour Party, don't be hyperbolic. Writing one article in there does not mean that you are supportive of it. I personally think it's a terrible and hateful publication but it is also the publication in the UK with the highest readership values. Not all of its readers are scum or some kind of outcasts we need to purge from society.
Starmer can write it on the guardian but there's an element of speaking within your echo chamber there. Like I said, he can either try to spread his message to voters who perhaps are not natural Labour voters (or were and have recently changed)... And on a point I didn't even consider that controversial, shows what little I know, or I guess we can be ideologically pure and proclaim thr mail and anyone who reads it scum and disengage from them totally.
Neither are the teachers parents or grand parents.
There has been 5 months to work out how to support reliable access to the Internet and devices for children who dont have them. That is why I said the government should have been looking at alternatives. I mean, even the previous Labour manifesto was to provide internet access to every household as a human right. Maybe this is what the opposition should be talking about. Even Alastair Campbell is criticising the Labour approach! The global pandemic does not stop just because some parents would prefer it.
The only options are not the Daily Mail or the Guardian. Hyperbole is you suggesting that any alternative to the opposition leader not writing articles in the Daily Mail is "talking in bubbles". Who referred to Daily Mail readers as scum? Once again more hyperbole from you. I said the outlet should be condemned and more tightly regulated when spreading hate and division. It is not necessarily the fault of the readers.
It’s completely devoid of the charisma or bite New Labour brought initially. It’s Milibandism, and it will suffer a similar fate if if carries on like this. Even Campbell can see it. I’m glad a centrist idol such as the dodgy dossier producing Campbell are finally cottoning on to it now, maybe his fans will start taking it a bit more seriously rather than meaningless deflections about the failures of Corbyn or pretending everything’s fine.
Has literally any country managed anything like this? To then around and make sure there's reliable WiFi and devices for all people who don't have access, in the space of 5 months, during the middle of a global pandemic? Nobody has said the pandemic stops just because some parents want their kids to go back to school, as if this is some petulant view.
Nobody said those are the only options. Yet they are two of the largest publications and daily mail readers are ubiquitous across the UK, whether you and I like it or not. I didn't say that any alternatives would be writing in bubbles. Only that it is the job of any leader of a national party to try to make your message reach those who are not natural supporters of their party. If he writes in publications which I or people within my normal circles read regularly, he's not really making much difference imo. We all vote Labour or Green already. What he needs to do is reach people who aren't in these kinds of groups. Otherwise he's preaching to the converted.
I didn't say you personally referred to daily mail readers as scum. But lots of people have and do. Or at the very leaat roll their eyes at them.
The legal opinion ... i wasn't aware the was a singular one of those... so whose opinion is that?
I hope they adapt this terrible approach to being the opposition. But I doubt it. The Keirites seem to be lapping it up without criticism.
The two firms I’ve consulted for work, and they were pretty clear and unequivocal about how they deemed a teacher’s chances of winning any case based on their refusal to work because they think it’s unsafe so long as the school adheres to the guidance. So if you think the guidance is inadequate, tough, basically.
I'm not sure of the solution but I don't think the solution is to keep stalling education or pursue with the format that it currently is/was during lockdown. Perhaps a part time schedule where classes are rotated between online and offline would help social distancing/management but that comes with it's own issues. The ideal situation is online classrooms but as AS has shown, not everyone has access to internet/good internet so these pupils suffer and it's not fair on them. The exam fiasco has also shown that we need to give the students the potential to get grades on their terms - whether that is a change to how people are assessed I don't know either but the current format of education during lockdown/with risk of lockdown just isn't feasible going forward if we want the pupils to excel. We know that the best opportunity pupils will have is in a face to face environment in an offline environment / school setting and it won't be all teachers who will not want to go into the classroom. Some will. A part time online/offline schedule could work but it's about how to make it work which is the issue.
It is funny because I know of large companies who have organised laptops and Internet access for thousands of staff as needed within weeks of lockdown starting. Take Vodafone call centres as one small example.
Of course this could have been investigated and prepared for months ago by schools if they had the right leadership. Even if schools had called each parent to ask what internet access and devices they had available for their children, it would be a start.
The incompetence of the government in not preparing for alternatives to a return to the classroom is only superceded by the opposition is not calling for better contingencies. Insisting on a return to school with "no ifs or buts" seems irresponsible to me.
The SNP in Scotland are re-opening all schools this month, aren't they?
I popped into this thread to see whether the electoral geniuses on here would predictably be against kids going to school and starmer writing an article to people who don't vote labour. And I was not disappointed.
Almost proves the point of my previous reply to you doesn't it. Prophetic, some would say.
Isn’t Alistair Campbell a literal electoral genius to your lot?
Who exactly is your lot?
Oh yeah there's isn't a perfect answer but everything you've listed above is more than anything the leader of the Labour party has put forward.
The more centrist factions of Labour
It's almost as if a company buying a few thousand laptops for its staff is not the same as a government funding out which of literally millions of pupils have access to adequate Internet/ devices and making sure to deliver said devices and Internet, whilst also managing said pandemic.
I agree that the government have been incompetent at pretty much every turn, let's just say I'm not exactly shocked. I don't think Starmer has been as bad as some on her make out but I also increasingly think he should be more aggressive too.
But returning to school is vital for so many reasons and it is again something that is not unique to the UK. A second year of distanced learning, or the same as this year , would be a disaster imo.
Delegation is key. Each school has a relationship with its children and while closed have a staff resource which could be utilised to contact parents. It would not be some impossible megaproject and it is disingenuous to suggest it would be. It comes down to poor leadership. Our education minister is literally only responsible for the education sectors response to the pandemic.
I am not suggesting a return to school would not be the most preferred option. My point is, there are many ifs and buts! Many nuances to consider, from local to national.
I was hopeful Starmer would be leading an inclusive Labour party and holding our incompetent government to account. Unfortunately I have been disappointed so far. If the appeal to Daily Mail readers fails to win the next election, where next? Does he think that will help to win back Scotland?
Who came up with the guidence and what are their qualifications to do so... (people with distinguished careers in epidemiology?)
So yeah if that guidence is as you say being followed then that seems a pretty good starting point
I suppose if a teacher (presumably not qualified in epidemiology?) wants to question it and prove its wrong and therefore the environment is unsafe then yeah they would have a pretty tricky time (because guidence is being followed)
If that guidence wasn't being followed then that's completely different isn't and would fall under the existing health and safety regs with the onus on the school to show why they didn't need to comply with government guidence?
Or should for a example a geography teacher be able to overule government policy because she does not like it?
If the school can't put in place addequate risk assessments and safe working practices then its completely different right?
More clownish stuff as usual from you showing a complete deference to power. We know full well the government’s handling of the pandemic has been shambolic in many cases since the outset, but God forbid a Geography teacher has the nerve to question government guidance. We should all unfailingly listen to whatever the government says, with no questioning or curiosity whatsoever, as the plebs should do.
You are aware other countries have stated PPE must be worn by staff and/or pupils, meanwhile DfE guidance says no PPE beyond what would ordinarily be used e.g. for care routines, is required. Of course British advice is the best and following the science, and if a Geography teacher points out to other countries adopting different measures they are a moron for thinking they can question government policy.
Aggressive carries risk though. The media are still very anti-Labour and it wouldn’t take much for the narrative to switch to ‘Lefties attacking the government as they try to save us from pandemic!’. The strategy at the moment seems to be to let the Tories keep fecking everything up, and being the calm, collected ones in the room to win back trust.
Not saying it’s the winning strategy, who knows yet, but just going on the attack constantly when the government has an 80 seat majority isn’t necessarily going to achieve much.
I mean if they wanted to insist that the school should be injecting them with bleech because president trump said it kills cv19 then they are welcome to try it... again I think a court might find that what is reasonable for schools and businesses is to follow the guidence in their own country.
Insulting another member
Terrible attempt at humour to deflect from the realisation you’re a bit of an idiot. Your posts truly are insufferable.
Was @sun_tzu the one who came back to the UK after visiting a coronavirus hotspot and visited a supermarket, and was then utterly baffled as to why people thought that was a bit of a stupid idea?
Not me... not been out of the country for quite a while