I'm guessing the scrutiny for not following pledges when in Government is higher than for a leadership contest. I know that hasn't stopped the Tories from breaking theirs.
Keir Starmer Labour Leader
- Thread starter Damien
- Start date
That's the truth though isn't it. No point sugar coating it, the Tories have wrecked the economy and the country and it's in a shit state. I see nothing wrong with that comment.
If this occurred then it's unacceptable. If it's that big a story why have the Tories not used it to attack Labour?
Because they're too busy hiding from scrutiny themselves?
The 2019 GE was uniquely fought and won on BREXIT policy. Who was Labour's BREXIT minister in 2019?
You can take 6 months out of this thread and come back to exactly the same arguments going back and forth
Politics and ideological differences, innit?
How triumphant.
I think you need to understand that Labour's improvement in the polls is in spite of Starmer, not because of him. The Tories have imploded. Labour could have Harry Maguire as leader and they'd still be ahead in the polls.
Yeah so far there are 3 episodes on YouTube. The latest one is the shortest, so I think your right that the bigger revelations have been push to the front.
Step 1: post a long post blaming them for everything that's gone wrong
Step 2: end the post by saying they always blame everyone else for everything that goes wrong
Step 3: ????
Step 4: profit
So the Leader of the Labour Group at the time couldn't even decide what his Brexit policy was? Brexit was a big factor no doubt but there were several other factors where people didn't see Corbyn as prime minister material.
Nah it's too much of a open goal when they are under the cosh themselves.
Corbyn was hopeless with Brexit.
Definitely. Too principled to change with the wind like the tories do.
We're on a football forum so I'd like to offer a football analogy. If it's a choice between City and Liverpool, most of us would prefer City to win because we hate Liverpool more. This seems to be the logic of the Labour centrists who want the left of the party to vote for Starmer's Labour Party. You might not like the leader but it's better than the tories winning again.
However, how many of us would want City to win if they had just conspired to get United relegated and have the manager suspended from football? Not only that, but many of the fans who run supporters' clubs have been banned? And there's a behind-the-scenes documentary showing how they did it but it's being ignored by the back pages?
I think this is why so many on the left don't feel comfortable holding their noses and pledging their support for Labour at the moment.
However, how many of us would want City to win if they had just conspired to get United relegated and have the manager suspended from football? Not only that, but many of the fans who run supporters' clubs have been banned? And there's a behind-the-scenes documentary showing how they did it but it's being ignored by the back pages?
I think this is why so many on the left don't feel comfortable holding their noses and pledging their support for Labour at the moment.
I think that's a fair analogy to be honest and gives the POV of both sides.
It's sad there is such division in the party.
I don't think labour have it in the bag at all.
Starmer is pretty uninspiring, and gerrymandering along with the quiet tory effect might lead to a surprising election result. Plus let's be honest, right wing media with Labour’s tarnished brand is a risk.
Starmer is pretty uninspiring, and gerrymandering along with the quiet tory effect might lead to a surprising election result. Plus let's be honest, right wing media with Labour’s tarnished brand is a risk.
If he was pm England would be at war with Wales and Scotland by thursday, losing by friday, he would have accidentally nuked London instead of livingstone whilst accidentally giving Vladimir Putin access to all uk government files whilst claiming "I won an election, I MUST be good'How triumphant.
I think you need to understand that Labour's improvement in the polls is in spite of Starmer, not because of him. The Tories have imploded. Labour could have Harry Maguire as leader and they'd still be ahead in the polls.
And adding that we all make mistakes...
This is what's going to bite them in the arse. If the lose the BAME voters especially among the Asian communities they'll never get back in power again.
Hmm, I want to check out the Jeffrey Dahmer programme too and feel that might prove more uplifting.
Na, they'll all change their mind and rally around Labour when @TheGame and @Jericholyte2 point out the ideological purity of not voting for people who hate you.
It's already working wonders on people who rightly ripped into Farage and co for their 'points based' immigration policy fantasy for years. Either that or they were all too busy applauding and stamping their feet to Starmer's speech to hear that bit of it.
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So was Cameron
I voted based on my ideology in 2017 & 2019, and look where it took us. I'm looking at (without PR which I'd whole-heartedly support) who is closest to my ideology who has a chance of winning the election. Until we implement PR a vote for any party to the left of Labour is effectively wasted when the point, in the first case, is to oust the Tories.
But you go ahead and keep voting for a party with no chance of even weakening a Tory majority whilst complaining about the Tories when Labour is offering a viable alternative.
You have to give them the chance to dig their hole, or the Tory mantra of 'they're all the same as each other' which is self-serving has seeped into your own mind.
Absolutely.
There's a compelling argument that this entire mess we're now in is all down to that cnuts ego and incompetence.
good that it's the "far left". the "normal left" isn't anywhere near as spooky. and is this "far left" in the room with you right now?
i think there are plenty of people here who didn't vote labour because of corbyn. at least half a dozen in this thread.
usually football analogies don't work but this is accurate.
So then considering the number of people who voted labour, not most?
No one is saying Labour has it in the bag yet. What can be said is that the Labour leads in the polls has been going on all year and begun before the height of partygate and Johnson's downfall. There's been a rather smug attitude by some sections who have been predicting that it won't last long or that Starmer will blow it for the entirety of this time but that hasn't materialised. I see it on the right wing where charges of wokeism whatever that means and this debate over transgender people has been used as a stick to try and carve a difference but that hasn't worked. The lead has only grown. On the other hand I read an article from Aaron Bastani for example in the unherd (a site which is actually based on making right wing anti-woke politics out to be the sensible center) where he now concedes that Keir Starmer is good at politics and there are lessons from the left to learn from that. Now he is a very smug individual who for a long time seems to be one of those people who want labour to falter in order to prove a point. That he is now pivoting is a sign of the times. If you actually listened to Starmer's speech or read the transcript in its entirety then there is a lot of substantive ambitious pledges in there. If you watch his other speeches generically or his weekly PMQs he is no different. What is different is Boris Johnson as an opponent only ever used three words slogans and as I mentioned populist bravado which was enough to get rousing cheers from his side whereas Truss is not that kind of politician. Similar policies but she is more up front about them which incidentally only makes her unpopular.
i don't think i said most tbf.
The Tories could kill someone live on tv and still have more chance of being voted in before KS. The guy is the equivalent of beige in the political world.
Kindly point out where I have outlined the 'ideological purity of not voting for people who hate you'. You seem to have an issue with people disagreeing with your opinion and people pointing out flaws in your arguments.
maybe in normal circumstances. but the past three years have seen plague, famine, and flood. at the end of an already terrible tory cycle, you'd think starmer is guaranteed to win. i think, whatever my problems with starmer, that a general election is in the broader interests of everyone because of the lack of people's ratification for very expensive policy over the past three years.
staying away from the polls until 2024 is the biggest recipe for disaster. a lame duck tory government just doing random harm to the nation. starmer has been 10 points ahead on average for a year or thereabouts. the odd poll with johnson showed him behind not so long ago but i don't see that being the case against truss. he's up against a complete void in the form of truss. this is the most farcical of all the tory iterations over the past 12 years and it shows.
So the ideological purity line is just about me for not wanting to vote for a liar? I'm honoured.
Am I allowed to not vote for him now he's parroting Farage's immigration spiel?
Aye very well put.
Rayner is absolutely eviscerating the Tories in this final speech. It's been brilliant.
You still think Labour have a chance?
We watched the Tories force through Brexit with their lies, watched on in horror how they failed during the pandemic resulting untold how many lives needlessly lost and now watch on as the pound gets raped bit still theres more chance of a Tory win than a Labour one sadly.
You're watching it on knowing there is not an election coming up. Labour have led the polls in healthy margins for a long time now indicating if the public were able to change government they would.
There was actually a specific thing mentioned there: the racial profiling.
This is very relevant to the question I asked you yesterday, which you replied to but didn't answer. What does it actually mean to not be ideologically pure? Do you have to think that it's good to racially profile Muslim members, or are you supposed to disagree with it as long as it in no way impacts your support of the party? This also goes for those who are being profiled, do they have to agree with how they're being treated?