Kepa Arrizabalaga

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Absolutely appalling of late. He doesn't command his area well at all.

Putting aside the third goal, for the second he should be there to punch it clear once the ball is hit up in the air. He has a bizarre reluctance to come off his line.

Worst part is Chelsea are stuck with him - can't see any side making a sizable bid at this point and I doubt Chelsea would be willing to cut bait on their enormous investment to pursue someone like Onana or Meret.

 

[Ødegaard]

Great gk, may he be at Chelsea until a late retirement.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

De Gea
Allison
Heaton
Ederson
Henderson
Pope
Foster
Schmeichel
Romero
Leno

Romero is a stretch but Patricio is better

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Been watching him a lot this season and he’s in contention for the worst keeper in the league.

 

[charlenefan]

Romero is a stretch but Patricio is better

Romero pisses on Kepa, there is no debate on that one

 

[diarm]

Romero is a stretch but Patricio is better

Forgot about Patricio - he goes ahead of Leno.

If Romero played for another club he'd be top 5 keepers in the league.

 

[Cascarino]

De Gea
Allison
Heaton
Ederson
Henderson
Pope
Foster
Schmeichel
Romero
Leno

He’s getting on now and struggled a bit with injuries but I’d have Fabianski over w couple of those. He’s gone under the radar but been a very good PL keeper.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Romero pisses on Kepa, there is no debate on that one

Forgot about Patricio - he goes ahead of Leno.

If Romero played for another club he'd be top 5 keepers in the league.

This is just silly. He's a very very good backup keeper and he's on par with Kepa. Wouldn't put him as clearly better at all and I don't think this is any bias. Romero is not better than all but 4 keepers in the league, let's be real.

Have also just realized that Lloris and Fabianski aren't in there so it looks worse and worse for Kepa.

 

[diarm]

He’s getting on now and struggled a bit with injuries but I’d have Fabianski over w couple of those. He’s gone under the radar but been a very good PL keeper.

Agreed.

 

[charlenefan]

This is just silly. He's a very very good backup keeper and he's on par with Kepa. Wouldn't put him as clearly better at all and I don't think this is any bias. Romero is not better than all but 4 keepers in the league, let's be real.

Have also just realized that Lloris and Fabianski aren't in there so it looks worse and worse for Kepa.

You need to watch Romero if you truly think he's on a par with Kepa

I've never seen Romero make the mistakes Kepa makes on a regular basis in terms of his glass wrists and poor kicking. Romero isn't spectacular and might not make many world class saves (and that's why he's not a first choice keeper for a top side) but he's incredibly solid and a lot more reliable than Kepa who's an accident waiting to happen and has been for the last 18 months

 

[charlenefan]

He’s getting on now and struggled a bit with injuries but I’d have Fabianski over w couple of those. He’s gone under the radar but been a very good PL keeper.

Strangely he was actually the first name I thought of when I said about naming 10 better keepers than Kepa

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

You need to watch Romero if you truly think he's on a par with Kepa

I've never seen Romero make the mistakes Kepa makes on a regular basis in terms of his glass wrists and poor kicking. Romero isn't spectacular and might not make many world class saves (and that's why he's not a first choice keeper for a top side) but he's incredibly solid and a lot more reliable than Kepa who's an accident waiting to happen and has been for the last 18 months

I've watched plenty of Romero! And I think he's a perfectly fine player. If you want to argue that he is more consistent than Kepa I would 100% agree, and I think this makes him far more suited to a backup role (although he has benefited from playing against lesser opposition for the most part of late). Kepa is an incredibly frustrating player because he has world class potential - some of his saves down low are truly world class. He is also, however, far more prone to unforgivable blunders.

I would thus argue that Kepa in his pomp is easily the better keeper, but at his worst he is easily the worse of the two. Thus, I don't think it's clear cut that Romero is better - this is all I'm saying. I also think it's ludicrous to suggest he's a top 5 keeper in the PL (though I know this wasn't what you said personally).

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I've watched plenty of Romero! And I think he's a perfectly fine player. If you want to argue that he is more consistent than Kepa I would 100% agree, and I think this makes him far more suited to a backup role (although he has benefited from playing against lesser opposition for the most part of late). Kepa is an incredibly frustrating player because he has world class potential - some of his saves down low are truly world class. He is also, however, far more prone to unforgivable blunders.

I would thus argue that Kepa in his pomp is easily the better keeper, but at his worst he is easily the worse of the two. Thus, I don't think it's clear cut that Romero is better - this is all I'm saying. I also think it's ludicrous to suggest he's a top 5 keeper in the PL (though I know this wasn't what you said personally).

Maybe you need to look at who is coaching Kepa. We got rid of DDG's and there has been a bit of an improvement.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

From what I see with Kepa is he’s an average shot stopper, he lets in saveable goals too regularly, he‘s average with the ball at his feet and he gives the opposition a chance nearly every game with brain farts, usually bad passing.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Maybe you need to look at who is coaching Kepa. We got rid of DDG's and there has been a bit of an improvement.

I think this is a very good point. Kepa has clearly regressed this year - perhaps it's not a coincidence that this is under Hilario in his first year as GK coach. The fact that he's so young and thus more impressionable makes this an even more plausible explanation.

 

[giorno]

You need to watch Romero if you truly think he's on a par with Kepa

I've never seen Romero make the mistakes Kepa makes on a regular basis in terms of his glass wrists and poor kicking. Romero isn't spectacular and might not make many world class saves (and that's why he's not a first choice keeper for a top side) but he's incredibly solid and a lot more reliable than Kepa who's an accident waiting to happen and has been for the last 18 months

Ask Sampdoria fans then

Romero is bang average at best. Kepa is young, and inconsistent, but he's a comfortably better first choice than romero, ffs

Kepa's pretty much an average gk with high potential right now

 

[charlenefan]

Ask Sampdoria fans then

Romero is bang average at best. Kepa is young, and inconsistent, but he's a comfortably better first choice than romero, ffs

Kepa's pretty much an average gk with high potential right now

Why would I need to ask Sampdoria fans? The bloke has played for Man Utd for 5 seasons now, however he performed before that is massively irrelevant

Oh and Kepa is 25 now hardly one you can still class as young with potential

 

[giorno]

Why would I need to ask Sampdoria fans? The bloke has played for Man Utd for 5 seasons now, however he performed before that is massively irrelevant

Oh and Kepa is 25 now hardly one you can still class as young with potential

Romero has played what, 40 games in 5 years? Come on

We're talking about a goalkeeper here. 25 is young

 

[charlenefan]

Romero has played what, 40 games in 5 years? Come on

We're talking about a goalkeeper here. 25 is young

If you believe that myth we're done here

 

[FrankDrebin]

Thought Kepa was much younger than 25 for some reason.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

If you believe that myth we're done here

Sorry I'm not Giorno but how is that a myth? It's very well established that goalkeepers peak later than outfield players and their aging curve is shifted.

 

[charlenefan]

Sorry I'm not Giorno but how is that a myth? It's very well established that goalkeepers peak later than outfield players and their aging curve is shifted.

The only thing that is established is that keepers have a longer life span.

Casillas, Lloris, Cech, Reina maybe even De Gea all off the top of my head keepers who were at their best in their younger years rather than their latter ones

Only keepers who really got better with age that I can think of are Buffon and VDS

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

The only thing that is established is that keepers have a longer life span.

Casillas, Lloris, Cech, Reina maybe even De Gea all off the top of my head keepers who were at their best in their younger years rather than their latter ones

Only keepers who really got better with age that I can think of are Buffon and VDS

I mean every player is better when younger. The point is the aging curve for keepers is later than for other positions - for the most part outfield players peak between ages 26-29; for keepers it's more like 28-32. Obviously there are exceptions (like Cech, who took time to recover from his horrific head injury and never quite got the same level), but arguing that keepers don't peak later than other positions is silly

 

[charlenefan]

I mean every player is better when younger. The point is the aging curve for keepers is later than for other positions - for the most part outfield players peak between ages 26-29; for keepers it's more like 28-32. Obviously there are exceptions (like Cech, who took time to recover from his horrific head injury and never quite got the same level), but arguing that keepers don't peak later than other positions is silly

It's not silly because I've just provided you with a number of examples where I've proved you and this myth wrong

Every single player I listed peaked in their early years and got worse the longer they went on just like every player. AGAIN the only difference between keepers and outfield players is that keepers can play for longer but they certainly DO NOT peak later

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

It's not silly because I've just provided you with a number of examples where I've proved you and this myth wrong

Every single player I listed peaked in their early years and got worse the longer they went on just like every player. AGAIN the only difference between keepers and outfield players is that keepers can play for longer but they certainly DO NOT peak later

Of course it's silly, you haven't proven anything by providing 5 keepers to support your case versus the general trend for all players at the position

 

[charlenefan]

Of course it's silly, you haven't proven anything by providing 5 keepers to support your case versus the general trend for all players at the position

Prove me wrong then rather than relying on a myth

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Prove me wrong then rather than relying on a myth

Myth? Is the fact that the sky is blue a myth? You haven't presented any evidence that this well established fact is a myth aside from five anecdotes (one of which is irrelevant because of a serious head injury) - calling something a myth doesn't make it one. If you want some evidence, here you go:

https://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/ta...goalkeepers-and-central-defenders-peak-latest

 

[charlenefan]

Myth? Is the fact that the sky is blue a myth? You haven't presented any evidence that this well established fact is a myth aside from five anecdotes (one of which is irrelevant because of a serious head injury) - calling something a myth doesn't make it one. If you want some evidence, here you go:

https://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/ta...goalkeepers-and-central-defenders-peak-latest

And you haven't provided any evidence that it is indeed a fact either especially not that article which is titled Want to have a long career in soccer? Play in goal or central defence which just re-emphasises my point that GK's just play longer which is completely different to when their peak is

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

And you haven't provided any evidence that it is indeed a fact either especially not that article which is titled Want to have a long career in soccer? Play in goal or central defence which just re-emphasises my point that GK's just play longer which is completely different to when their peak is

If you'd actually read the article, you'd note that the whole point of it was to discuss aging curves - inherent to a player getting minutes at a later age is the fact that they must be performing at a top level. Thus, it's not some weird coincidence that goalkeepers have a right-shifted aging curve.

Do you actually think goalkeepers peak at 26-29 as outfield players do? If five four names are all that are required to make an argument then I'd put forward Van der Sar, Lehmann, Kahn, and Buffon. QED.

 

[charlenefan]

Do you actually think goalkeepers peak at 26-29 as outfield players do? If five four names are all that are required to make an argument then I'd put forward Van der Sar, Lehmann, Kahn, and Buffon. QED.

I think theres more proof over the past decade that they do yes and it's not just those who I mentioned previously what about the likes of Courtois (a shadow of the keeper he was at Athletico and his first year at Chelsea), Neuer (I guess you'll blame the injuries for him as well). Fact is all you've done to back up the myth are keepers that stopped playing football 10 years ago (bar Buffon who I've already said along with VDS)

Anyway I'm done debating this now if you want to believe it then so be it, it doesn't detract that Kepa is awful and no amount of 'growing up' is suddenly going to change that

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

I think theres more proof over the past decade that they do yes and it's not just those who I mentioned previously what about the likes of Courtois (a shadow of the keeper he was at Athletico and his first year at Chelsea), Neuer (I guess you'll blame the injuries for him as well). Fact is all you've done to back up the myth are keepers that stopped playing football 10 years ago (bar Buffon who I've already said along with VDS)

Anyway I'm done debating this now if you want to believe it then so be it, it doesn't detract that Kepa is awful and no amount of 'growing up' is suddenly going to change that

Your proof consists of four examples. Courtois is only 27 so you can't even use him as a retrospective (and much as I despise him he's been very good for Madrid this season).

You are just picking and choosing individual data points to try to make your argument instead of looking at the broader picture. You're totally missing the forest for the trees - essentially arguing that "hey here are some exceptions, therefore the rule doesn't exist". This is a total fallacy.

I am not trying to argue that Kepa is not awful, I am arguing that he is more likely to improve going forward than a 25 year old CB would be who was similarly error-prone. Again, this isn't to say that no goalkeepers peak between the ages of 26 and 29, just that it's more likely that a goalkeeper peaks later. Not sure why this is such a difficult concept to get across.

 

[charlenefan]

Your proof consists of four examples. Courtois is only 27 so you can't even use him as a retrospective (and much as I despise him he's been very good for Madrid this season).

You are just picking and choosing individual data points to try to make your argument instead of looking at the broader picture. You're totally missing the forest for the trees - essentially arguing that "hey here are some exceptions, therefore the rule doesn't exist". This is a total fallacy.

I am not trying to argue that Kepa is not awful, I am arguing that he is more likely to improve going forward than a 25 year old CB would be who was similarly error-prone. Again, this isn't to say that no goalkeepers peak between the ages of 26 and 29, just that it's more likely that a goalkeeper peaks later. Not sure why this is such a difficult concept to get across.

Because your concept is just that and I don't buy it and you're fooling yourself if that's what you're hanging you hat on in the hope that Kepa is going to get good

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Because your concept is just that and I don't buy it and you're fooling yourself if that's what you're hanging you hat on in the hope that Kepa is going to get good

You don't buy that goalkeepers peak later than outfield players? Do you also not buy that 2+2=4?

I am not trying to argue that Kepa is ever going to be a top player. I am arguing that it's more likely that a 25 year old raw goalkeeper will come good versus a raw 25 year old outfield player. I don't understand why this is controversial in the slightest.

Frankly, I'd be very happy if Chelsea could flog Kepa off somewhere as I think it's unlikely he'll ever be a top class goalkeeper. I can simultaneously believe that he isn't good enough for Chelsea and also believe that he's more likely to become top class than someone like, say, Andreas Christensen.

 

[charlenefan]

You don't buy that goalkeepers peak later than outfield players? Do you also not buy that 2+2=4?

I am not trying to argue that Kepa is ever going to be a top player. I am arguing that it's more likely that a 25 year old raw goalkeeper will come good versus a raw 25 year old outfield player. I don't understand why this is controversial in the slightest.

Frankly, I'd be very happy if Chelsea could flog Kepa off somewhere as I think it's unlikely he'll ever be a top class goalkeeper. I can simultaneously believe that he isn't good enough for Chelsea and also believe that he's more likely to become top class than someone like, say, Andreas Christensen.

Based on what you've said in this thread I'm sure there is no limit to what you believe

Like I said I'm now done on this

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

Based on what you've said in this thread I'm sure there is no limit to what you believe

Like I said I'm now done on this

Is this supposed to be an insult?

 

[JPRouve]

I think that @charlenefan has a point here. The goalkeepers that people use as examples are generally undeniably top class at 25 years old and they are in fact top class earlier than that with many being wonderkids. Late bloomers among top goalkeepers aren't all that common and outside of maybe Keylor Navas, I don't really have anyone that would be a recent example. What goalkeepers do is that their peak last longer, they tend to reach it relatively early and stay at that level for a long time.

 

[charlenefan]

Is this supposed to be an insult?

No more than your 2+2 comment

 

[Handré1990]

I think that @charlenefan has a point here. The goalkeepers that people use as examples are generally undeniably top class at 25 years old and they are in fact top class earlier than that with many being wonderkids. Late bloomers among top goalkeepers aren't all that common and outside of maybe Keylor Navas, I don't really have anyone that would be a recent example. What goalkeepers do is that their peak last longer, they tend to reach it relatively early and stay at that level for a long time.

Agree with this, and those who stayed on top for the longest time (vds and Buffon) had a style of play which wasn’t necessarily too physically taxing. They relied on great positioning and commanding of the defence so they managed to do a lot of the job before actually making a save.

Neuer is actually a great example of a young keeper who was excellent. Those performances vs us for Schalke still haunts me. He did his best work for Bayern in his first couple of years imo.

 

[cyberman]

Agree with this, and those who stayed on top for the longest time (vds and Buffon) had a style of play which wasn’t necessarily too physically taxing. They relied on great positioning and commanding of the defence so they managed to do a lot of the job before actually making a save.

Neuer is actually a great example of a young keeper who was excellent. Those performances vs us for Schalke still haunts me. He did his best work for Bayern in his first couple of years imo.

We easily beat Schalke and cruised to a CL final you madman

 

[duffer]

Agree with this, and those who stayed on top for the longest time (vds and Buffon) had a style of play which wasn’t necessarily too physically taxing. They relied on great positioning and commanding of the defence so they managed to do a lot of the job before actually making a save.

Neuer is actually a great example of a young keeper who was excellent. Those performances vs us for Schalke still haunts me. He did his best work for Bayern in his first couple of years imo.

VDS didn't really stay at the top. He started well, flopped at Juve and had to slum it at Fulham for years before doing great things at Man United in his 30s. He's the poster boy for late bloomers.

Buffon has been pretty shit for a while now. He's ruining his legacy in my opinion.