Kevin Friend

SadlerMUFC

Full Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2017
Messages
3,635
Location
Niagara Falls, Canada
Shaw foul - I hate the foul rule when you win the ball but momentum goes into the player. It used to be a great tackle but now it’s deemed a bad foul. As much as I hate to say it, it’s a foul in 2021

Maguire scored a brilliant goal and should have stood
If someone is sliding straight at a player then I think it should be a foul. But Shaw was kicking the ball. I don't know how he's supposed to kick without a follow through. There are some situations where I say the player needs to just pull out of the challenge. This wasn't one of those times. For me it was a clean tackle. With that being said, if an argument can be made to say that it isn't a clean tackle, then that must also be correct. Funny thing this game of football. If an argument can be made to say something is or isn't a foul, then they can both be right. Just depends on how the ref saw it. So this time, Shaw gets the foul against him. As for the Maguire goal, that was absolute robbery. If someone makes an argument to call that a foul all I can say is they are 100% wrong. It was poor defending and their player got caught flat footed. Maguire has every right to go for that ball. it's not his fault the defender just stood there. That is a goal every day of the week and our rivals would be going crazy right now if Burnley scored that same goal and had it called back. In the end, the only positive I can take is that we won the game so that gives us the right to b*tch about the ref because had we lost we would just sound like a bunch of poor losers. But this is a good thing. I remember under SAF we would have a ton of calls go against us but our rivals would always forget about them. But that's what champions do. Champions win even when the ref is against them. Today we could have very easily sat back and felt sorry for ourselves for the bad calls. But we didn't. We went on and won anyways. Not I'm not saying we are going to win the title this year, but that is exactly what title winning teams need to do. Win even when the ref is against you...
 

Giggs86

Full Member
Joined
Jul 16, 2014
Messages
3,218
Location
USA
Which team does he support? I can bet a good amount that it's one of our rivals. No other explanation for that shitshow against us today.
 

Number32

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
680
Anyone has watched Michael Kean's goal vs Wolves last night? Pretty sure it was the same situation with Maguire's goal from every angle.
And I'm pretty sure Burnley are always getting this kind of goals unpunished, they did it millions of times.
 

Grande

Full Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2007
Messages
3,370
Location
The Land of Do-What-You-Will
You may be right but when I slow it down and watch again you can see the defender's reaction to being fouled before Maguire even heads the ball, these are close decisions depending on exactly when the contact happened and how much contact - so although each of these goals may look similar there will be fractions of difference that make some of them fouls and some of them passable.

I do think there's an air of hypermasculinity when it comes to how some fans judge whether incidents are a foul. Watching football with some men you would think there's no such thing as a foul as everything is described as soft or a dive. Particular the older they are, it's always "you wouldn't get a foul for that in my day"
Believe me, I used to be a ref and am more on the lines of we should call every offence in the box every time, and we’d have no problems. But I couldn’t referee that way, because common practice is as important with refs as are the actual rules. If a ref called every offense by the book one day, he’d be beheaded by fans, players and the refereeing panel alike.

When it comes to arms and headers in England, the practice is that if you use two stretched arms, clearly duck the player first, and you are not first up, then MAYBE it will be called. Maguire was first up by a mile, his one arm wasn’t outstreched before after the header, and the defender wasn’t really affected before Maguire’s hips hit his upper back, then went down afterwards when Maguire had to lean on him with his arm not to topple and risk injury.

For me it’s a straight forward ‘you can’t call those’ situation. I think if you look at every header we lost or gave a dangerous clearance, there was equal or more use of arms without a freekick being given.
 

Mike Smalling

Full Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2018
Messages
1,123
He's no Friend of mine.

To be fair, I think he made the right call in the Shaw situation. Getting the ball does not automatically mean it is not a foul. Disallowing the Maguire goal was bizarre though - that was the type of challenge you see many times during a PL game.
 

Pexbo

Online influencer who has never watched Star Wars
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
51,134
Location
Brizzle
Believe me, I used to be a ref and am more on the lines of we should call every offence in the box every time, and we’d have no problems. But I couldn’t referee that way, because common practice is as important with refs as are the actual rules. If a ref called every offense by the book one day, he’d be beheaded by fans, players and the refereeing panel alike.

When it comes to arms and headers in England, the practice is that if you use two stretched arms, clearly duck the player first, and you are not first up, then MAYBE it will be called. Maguire was first up by a mile, his one arm wasn’t outstreched before after the header, and the defender wasn’t really affected before Maguire’s hips hit his upper back, then went down afterwards when Maguire had to lean on him with his arm not to topple and risk injury.

For me it’s a straight forward ‘you can’t call those’ situation. I think if you look at every header we lost or gave a dangerous clearance, there was equal or more use of arms without a freekick being given.
Bingo
 
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
8,499
I will give him a bit of a pass on that one. Generally DOGSO is held to quite a high bar, and in real time I think it's an understandable decision to think the covering defender can get across and prevent an obvious goal scoring opportunity. On replay, he's not in the frame until Brady slows everyone up by fouling Cavani and, if not for the Shaw foul, he would have been rightly sent off.

It's a weird moment for VAR because at the heart of it I think it gets every step of that right. Was it a red card? Yes. Was it a foul in the build up? Yes. Was it a sending off? No. But the length of time the process took, and how awfully it was communicated as damaged it further. We absolutely need to hear the conversation between the VAR hub and the referee rather than the commentators guessing (wrongly) at what they think is happening.
we need to hear the conversations.

it’s outrageous that we don’t.

they do it in cricket, you know exactly what’s going on with rugby.

the Problem is they don’t have a bloody clue what’s going on, and are making it up on the hoof.

if everyone can hear the conversation, it will standardise the process, and take out ambiguity.

at the moment it’s Farcical and the VAR ref is influencing the infield ref too much.
 

Bobcat

Full Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
4,832
Location
Behind the curtains, leering at the neighbors
Anyone has watched Michael Kean's goal vs Wolves last night? Pretty sure it was the same situation with Maguire's goal from every angle.
And I'm pretty sure Burnley are always getting this kind of goals unpunished, they did it millions of times.
Without a doubt. The likes of Burnley can get away with all kinds of shithousery, and you know the goal would have stood if it was the other end.

And where the feck did the 8 minutes of injury time come from? Twat
 

dannyrhinos89

OMG socks and sandals lol!
Joined
Nov 24, 2013
Messages
10,892
That’s my issue is the consistency, maguire gets punished for a fair header yet them 2 lumps up front for them literally base their whole game on that style but of course they get away with it Every time.
 

Skåre Willoch

Full Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
2,854
I asked this in the match day thread as well yesterday, but didn't get any response. And I'm genuinely curious. Has he done something to his face? Like plastic surgery or botox er something? He looks different!
 

Desert Eagle

Punjabi Dude
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
9,754
Not saying it was a fix but really did feel like the officials had a vested interest in making sure burnley got something from the game.
 

Rossa

Full Member
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
8,450
Location
Looking over my shoulder.
It’s infuriating watching a “physical” side like Burnley go down at the slightest touch, and the ref falling for it every time. Also, the Burnlwy players ducked for almost every aerial duel, and Friend gave them a free kick. Every bloody time. Seldom have I seen such incompetence.
 

Red & White

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 21, 2017
Messages
49
I can’t wait to see an identical goal to Maguire‘s one from last night in the next week or so and hear what people have to say when it’s, correctly, not even thought about being chalked off.

I know Shaw took a knock in injury time but an additional 3 and a half minutes? It was only a week or so ago we couldn’t take a corner when there was still 10 seconds of the ‘minimum’ added time left.
 

troylocker

Full Member
Joined
May 2, 2019
Messages
559
There is no conspiracy or bias, and throwing stuff like that out there without evidence or at least a lead is just stupid and damaging to the sport. We were lucky to keep Shaw on the pitch and Maguire's goal should have stood. These things happens and in the long run it should more or less even out.

A quick read at Bluemoon and RAWK almost makes you think you're on a QAnon forum, where conspiracy theories is accepted as truths with no need for evidence or facts to back your claims. It looks like echochambers where they believe the refs, FA and moneymen behind the scenes conspire against them through VAR and flukey ref-decissions to get us back in the mix. I guess if they repeat it enough times it becomes their truth. Let's not do that here.
 

11101

Full Member
Joined
Aug 26, 2014
Messages
13,555
There is no conspiracy or bias, and throwing stuff like that out there without evidence or at least a lead is just stupid and damaging to the sport. We were lucky to keep Shaw on the pitch and Maguire's goal should have stood. These things happens and in the long run it should more or less even out.

A quick read at Bluemoon and RAWK almost makes you think you're on a QAnon forum, where conspiracy theories is accepted as truths with no need for evidence or facts to back your claims. It looks like echochambers where they believe the refs, FA and moneymen behind the scenes conspire against them through VAR and flukey ref-decissions to get us back in the mix. I guess if they repeat it enough times it becomes their truth. Let's not do that here.
Nobody sensible really thinks its a conspiracy, it's just bad refereeing. It's also human nature and confirmed by many ex referees that they develop biases during a game. Cavani and Bruno clearly annoyed him and from that point on he was determined to make a point against us and let Burnley have the run of things.

And there is no way Shaw's tackle would ever warrant a red card. They're lucky it was a foul at all.
 

Sylar

Full Member
Joined
May 15, 2007
Messages
26,159
Hes not against us, hes just a poor referee in general. Hes nobodys friend.

Theres gonna be a time where Burnley fans are going to hate him too just because of how he referees a match.
 

Revan

Assumptionman
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
42,802
Location
Munich
Did he break the VAR rules for Shaw's yellow? I thought that you can use VAR only to give red cards, not yellows. So, if Shaw wasn't a red card, then it should have been ignored and give the red card to Soton player for stopping Cavani as last man.
 
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
8,499
Did he break the VAR rules for Shaw's yellow? I thought that you can use VAR only to give red cards, not yellows. So, if Shaw wasn't a red card, then it should have been ignored and give the red card to Soton player for stopping Cavani as last man.
you must be able to review it for a potential red card? And then give a red, yellow or nothing? It can’t be red or nothing surely?

not defending the ref. As it’s one of the worst displays I’ve seen in years.
 

Skåre Willoch

Full Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2014
Messages
2,854
Did he break the VAR rules for Shaw's yellow? I thought that you can use VAR only to give red cards, not yellows. So, if Shaw wasn't a red card, then it should have been ignored and give the red card to Soton player for stopping Cavani as last man.
I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think VAR can be used to review a situation up to 30 seconds before an incident if an obvious decision was missed out on, and that missed decision leads to the goal/situation as a result. I think it was a fair decision to roll it back and give Luke Shaw the yellow card, BUT, I think Brady should've kept his yellow as well. Not for taking away an obvious goal scoring chance, but for the tackle itself. You can't get away with murder just because someone did something else 25 seconds earlier.
 

troylocker

Full Member
Joined
May 2, 2019
Messages
559
Nobody sensible really thinks its a conspiracy, it's just bad refereeing. It's also human nature and confirmed by many ex referees that they develop biases during a game. Cavani and Bruno clearly annoyed him and from that point on he was determined to make a point against us and let Burnley have the run of things.

And there is no way Shaw's tackle would ever warrant a red card. They're lucky it was a foul at all.
A red could definitely have been given, and I can imagine there would have been a lot of screaming for it if it was one of ours in the end of that tackle. I biased as I am as a Man United fan, I wanted the freekick and a red for the Cavani situation of course, but I think it would have been a clear and obvious mistake from the ref not to give them the foul there. I don't think a yellow was wrong either, but Shaw gave the ref a chance to send him off there with what I think was dangerous play.

I agree on the first part though. If you scream, shout and argue about every situation on the pitch, you will annoy the ref.
 

AltiUn

likes playing with swords after fantasies
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
14,461
Us not being allowed to challenge for headers in the first half really wound me up. We apparently couldn't win a header without foulding a Burnley player, yet they plowed into us constantly with no repercussions, that non-foul on Pogba was a joke. It's happened a few times now where the opposition is allowed to foul us consistently and then collapse with no one near them and win fouls, Liepzig springs to mind and also Chelsea last season, it makes it incredibly difficult to play our game and it's actually very unfair. That Liepzig first half at OT is still angering me now, getting lauded as a great high-press when the referee just blew the whistle as soon as we got into their half, but I digress.
 

AltiUn

likes playing with swords after fantasies
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
14,461
Won't be a popular opinion but I think Maguire's goal is a foul. I'd certainly want a free kick if we conceded that goal.

The most baffling thing for me is how he found an extra 3 and a half minutes on top of the 4 minutes stoppage time that were given.
I'd typically agree but Maguire had won the ball well before the contact, the defender didn't even jump.
 

Pexbo

Online influencer who has never watched Star Wars
Joined
Jun 2, 2009
Messages
51,134
Location
Brizzle
Us not being allowed to challenge for headers in the first half really wound me up. We apparently couldn't win a header without foulding a Burnley player, yet they plowed into us constantly with no repercussions, that non-foul on Pogba was a joke. It's happened a few times now where the opposition is allowed to foul us consistently and then collapse with no one near them and win fouls, Liepzig springs to mind and also Chelsea last season, it makes it incredibly difficult to play our game and it's actually very unfair. That Liepzig first half at OT is still angering me now, getting lauded as a great high-press when the referee just blew the whistle as soon as we got into their half, but I digress.
It was a very clear sign of unconscious bias and that is being kind.
 

nyanza

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 14, 2017
Messages
431
Location
Bulgaria
Did he break the VAR rules for Shaw's yellow? I thought that you can use VAR only to give red cards, not yellows. So, if Shaw wasn't a red card, then it should have been ignored and give the red card to Soton player for stopping Cavani as last man.
They were reviewing a challange for a potential red card (the one on Cavani). It was red for Brady (being last man) or no card at all (Shaw's foul leading to that situation and ref mistake in not stopping play there). Red card for Brady was not given because of Shaw's foul the same way Maguire's goal was not given because of his "foul". It doesn't matter if Shaw's challenge is for a card at all.
 

LuisNaniencia

Sky Sports called my bluff
Joined
May 22, 2010
Messages
9,361
Location
271.5 miles from Old Trafford
Won't be a popular opinion but I think Maguire's goal is a foul. I'd certainly want a free kick if we conceded that goal.

The most baffling thing for me is how he found an extra 3 and a half minutes on top of the 4 minutes stoppage time that were given.
Basically it would mean for that initial 4 minutes, only 30 seconds of football was played. That can't be right.
 

Jippy

Sleeps with tramps, bangs jacuzzis, dirty shoes
Staff
Joined
Nov 19, 2009
Messages
48,030
Location
Jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams
Managed to play until 97 minutes and 30 seconds IIRC after 4 minutes of injury time were added.
You had Martial injured then subbed, then Matic down with cramp or groin strain tbf. Feck it, at least we got out of one of those games were you don't get the rub of the green with the decisions with a win, so take it and move on.
 

Tony247

Full Member
Joined
May 2, 2018
Messages
3,907
You had Martial injured then subbed, then Matic down with cramp or groin strain tbf. Feck it, at least we got out of one of those games were you don't get the rub of the green with the decisions with a win, so take it and move on.
Everything combined in 45 mins = 4 mins extra, then
Another 4 mins for injury + sub! It was over the top.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

Full Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
7,037
Did he break the VAR rules for Shaw's yellow? I thought that you can use VAR only to give red cards, not yellows. So, if Shaw wasn't a red card, then it should have been ignored and give the red card to Soton player for stopping Cavani as last man.
I think VAR was used for the Brady‘s one not for Shaw since the VAR team thought it has potential for a red for the Brady incident on Cavani but then the VAR also said there is a potential foul (not a red card foul) that Shaw made that led to the build up of the Brady’s incident which ruled out the red card on Brady.
 

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
28,320
Did he break the VAR rules for Shaw's yellow? I thought that you can use VAR only to give red cards, not yellows. So, if Shaw wasn't a red card, then it should have been ignored and give the red card to Soton player for stopping Cavani as last man.
Technically the next phase of play hadn't ended, so he could have come back and given him a yellow card.

Obviously was a complete mess though, he would have given a free kick if he thought it was a foul, but I guess he could miss the contact at full speed which is fair enough.

He hadn't given Shaw a yellow at that stage, so he could go back and book him pretending he was going to do it anyway.

It's fair to say though Friend had a very poor match.
 

romufc

Full Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2019
Messages
6,632
Everything combined in 45 mins = 4 mins extra, then
Another 4 mins for injury + sub! It was over the top.
In the first half when we were on top, after the VAR only couple minutes were added on when it took the ref 5 minutes to sort out the yellow card incident...
 

Tony247

Full Member
Joined
May 2, 2018
Messages
3,907
In the first half when we were on top, after the VAR only couple minutes were added on when it took the ref 5 minutes to sort out the yellow card incident...
Exactly. Was really surprised match was carried on for another almost 4 extra minutes. Hindsight we won so no heartburn but imagine equalizer at 90+8 and this place would be shouting through the roof.
 

Offsideagain

Full Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
800
Location
Cheshire
And now Clownenberg has opened his Geordie gob claiming Utd players play for fouls and penalties. That was the headline but he goes on to say that Liverpool do too. Who can remember the number of penalties Gerrard got by steaming into the area within a yard of Vidic and falling over? I hope we beat the Scousers by a dubious penalty on Sunday. Klopp will melt his shiny white teeth.