Maybe the players complained to Woodward, who told Ole not to upset them and back off?
Klopp about Paul Pogbas physical advantage over the rest
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I do think things could have been very different for Pogba here if we'd had a coach like Klopp or Pep in charge. Things could have been very different for several of our players. Our managerial appointments really have been terrible, we've either hired has-beens or complete novices.
SAF never managed him as a first team player. Rangnick hasn't had him very much either, and when he has played he looked physically shot.
It was really only Jose and Ole who have managed him here, and they (and their coaching teams) failed pretty much every player in the squad. Other than the occasional one season here and there that different players have had (that they all then proceeded to drop away from the following season) no player has consistently looked good and they've all ended up going backwards.
Pogba isn't innocent. There were times and aspects that he has to take some blame for and definitely could have done better. But there's no doubt that the club and management have also set him up to fail to some extent with the terrible coaching and poor players around him. They didn't just fail him, they failed every player.
He doesn't possess their mentality and consistency though
I know what you mean. IMO...it’s the status that players obtain simply by being in the first team. The media attention, the social media “followers” the sponsorship potential, the -let’s be honest- immediate celebrity status and god knows how many “family and friends” encouraging them to invest and promote products etc. No doubt it’s a lot for players to have to learn to deal with.
Some have the character not to let it effect them but others, who are less mentally prepared or not grounded or from different backgrounds...feel the need to buy in to the hype that surrounds them, dont stay out of the limelight and refuse to just focus on their careers.
Ferguson sought out great character as a priority...didn’t tolerate it when they became more than just footballers.Other then those awful shaving adds...when do you hear or see Pool’s or City’s players on TV or social media? Our place is like a bloody sitcom!
The players are the wrong characters. The club is at fault for signing them or nurturing an atmosphere that allows those characters to flourish to the detriment of their actual footballing ability. Pogba is a poster boy for this.
Feck off
Maybe. I doubt that explains the disappointingly bad attitude of quite a lot of players who’ve been at the club since they were young kids though.
100% this. Let’s hope lessons have been learned…
I think you took wrong conclusion. Klopp clearly mentioned the importance of strong mindset in the interview and if we look back at Pogba at Juventus, it's kinda understandable why he flourished there, he was surrounded by players with strong mentality like Pirlo, Tevez, Vidal, Evra, Chiellini, and Buffon. These players sharing the burden together with him while at United, people expected Pogba to do everything. IF one thing where United failed him down badly is our failure to sign strong mentality players during his time here.
I agree that he was better for United in his first 3 seasons but he was absolutely good enough for us, his stats back that up too.
What's undoubtful is the team around him wasn't good enough. In his 1st season he came back to play with Fellaini in midfield 2, just think how absurd that was especially when Mourinho went on to buy Mkhitaryan instead of another midfielder to pair him with Pogba and Herrera. We had Mata and Rooney in Mkhi's position too. The fact is in most of his time with United we had two managers who never cared much about winning the midfield and wanted him to do that on his own and so did the fans.
Imagine if he needed an inhaler for his Asthma what a player he would be!
He's the player who has frustrated me a lot and I'd like to see him leaving this summer.
Also, I'd like to see him executing his talent in a very suitable team for him, where he is LCM, has a workhorse and a DM next to him. He is cool player, his playing style is nice to watch and he has combined abilities only a few players have. So just for the pure entertainment I'd like to see him shine at the maximum. But that's it - no sympathy for him.
Also, I'd like to see him executing his talent in a very suitable team for him, where he is LCM, has a workhorse and a DM next to him. He is cool player, his playing style is nice to watch and he has combined abilities only a few players have. So just for the pure entertainment I'd like to see him shine at the maximum. But that's it - no sympathy for him.
Pogba actually did have a lot of licence to break forward in his first season and I remember he constantly kept running down blind alleys and getting dispossessed. The amount of turnovers in possession he had back then would make even Bruno blush.
Being in a dysfunctional club was obviously extremely negative and I don't think Jose or Ole were the best coaches for him but the sad fact is he hasn't been very good in his time here: not terrible but hardly 80 million world class midfielder either.
Being in a dysfunctional club was obviously extremely negative and I don't think Jose or Ole were the best coaches for him but the sad fact is he hasn't been very good in his time here: not terrible but hardly 80 million world class midfielder either.
This is why he is so frustrating. He has all the attributes barre the mentality. Watch The Last Dance and you will see someone with EVERYTHING. OR even just look to Ronaldo.
Re; Klopp and Liverpools training, they are not doing this naturally. They "prepare" and "recover" in special ways. I'd have a quick google about Pep and Klopps methods in Germany, fall outs with Doctors, Klopp trying to steal Peps doctors to Liverpool. Only one of our players "prepares" and "recovers" in the same way. Think hip injuries, poor form, unauthorised trips to foreign lands, magic return to form and hattricks.
You can't look like Milner and Ronaldo at their age naturally and also be a competitive footballer. Plenty of body builders get that lean but they don't play 60 games a season as well.
So this is the wrong thing to question Pogba for. It's all in his head. He's not a leader and easily loses focus and drive. He is externally motivated rather than internally.
Re; Klopp and Liverpools training, they are not doing this naturally. They "prepare" and "recover" in special ways. I'd have a quick google about Pep and Klopps methods in Germany, fall outs with Doctors, Klopp trying to steal Peps doctors to Liverpool. Only one of our players "prepares" and "recovers" in the same way. Think hip injuries, poor form, unauthorised trips to foreign lands, magic return to form and hattricks.
You can't look like Milner and Ronaldo at their age naturally and also be a competitive footballer. Plenty of body builders get that lean but they don't play 60 games a season as well.
So this is the wrong thing to question Pogba for. It's all in his head. He's not a leader and easily loses focus and drive. He is externally motivated rather than internally.
He’s a garnish, not the main ingredient.
Oh trust me, Pep would've binned him right away, Klopp would try atleast for one season then when he found out he couldn't force Pogba to run and press like mad man, he'd bin him too. These 2 great managers are great because they have specific gamestyles which requires specific players.
That's exactly how I see things too
Yeah he's not quite as quick as he was a few years ago for sure. But I also find it funny people complain about having to "accommodate" him when that same thing gets brought up for a million other players that have been more liked by fans (Bruno has to play as a roaming 10, Rashford has to play on the left etc.). We never actually had Pogba in a 3 man midfield with him being a creative CM besides two other actually good midfielders. Closest we got was him and Matic sitting behind Bruno during the lockdown season where we were brilliant going forward.
I don't think there's a question around his talent. I mean, name me 5 other midfielders in history with that much technical ability combined with insane athletic ability? There's not many.
The problem with Pogba is mental. I understand the team hasn't been good, but he was supposed to be our best player. He should have done more, but instead he folded every time the team played bad/went through a bad patch.
I have no doubt he can still be WC in a good team. He showed it for France just now in the euro's.
The problem with Pogba is mental. I understand the team hasn't been good, but he was supposed to be our best player. He should have done more, but instead he folded every time the team played bad/went through a bad patch.
I have no doubt he can still be WC in a good team. He showed it for France just now in the euro's.
Nonsens. It is called priorities. You either are football player or you are instagramian, politician, clothes maker or whatever. Football is job. Not hobby. That is why lot of our player fail. They got mega contract and don't need to work for it. They can use us as hobby. When it should be football first, rest second.
TenHag will need time. No question about that. I'm certain that we are far better place and team as soon as some players leave. We would be that regardless of manager.
we came second last year i doubt that qualifies our training and system to be an outlier.
Underrated post. If only all those poor Liverpool players didn't have asthma they'd be just as physical as Pogba one day
A world class player has to stand out in a team of average players. Pogba looks like he belongs. Ronaldo still looks world class in our average team. Bruno also managed to stand out for 18 months straight.
Here we go again. Pogba excuse making. We did not "break" Pogba. We tried Pogba in every conceivable role, we tried him with every available partner. We tried him with several managers, all of which desperately wanted and needed a tune out of him as a talented player.
Pogba broke Pogba. The guy that pulled on the shirt, put a pair of boots on and kicked the ball around for 90 mins. Not the fella that stands in a suit on the sidelines. And not the institution that pays him exorbitant amounts to play well.
Pogba broke Pogba. The guy that pulled on the shirt, put a pair of boots on and kicked the ball around for 90 mins. Not the fella that stands in a suit on the sidelines. And not the institution that pays him exorbitant amounts to play well.
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Pogba is just another young player that physically peaked early and so gave the impression that they had potential to become really top class players. The reality is he didn't improve as a footballer from the day we signed him, he'd already reached his ceiling. He's not developed the tactical awareness side of his game and he's not sharp enough physically or mentally.
Sure he can get onto Soccer AMs showboat each week, and he can even look good at times in the slower paced games of international tournaments, but that's all you get really. Add up his goal contributions over a season then take away each goal conceded where he gave it away or was out of position, and you'll probably end up at 0.
Sure he can get onto Soccer AMs showboat each week, and he can even look good at times in the slower paced games of international tournaments, but that's all you get really. Add up his goal contributions over a season then take away each goal conceded where he gave it away or was out of position, and you'll probably end up at 0.
He broke himself. He's lazy and doesn't give a feck about playing for United.
Paul Pogba deserves more than one thread anyway. So let's discuss Paul Pogba.
No one denies that PP is a special talent and an extraordinary athlete. Even in the few minutes he's played this season, we've seen spectacular ball handling and positional awareness. I don't think anyone here would deny that PP was mismanaged by Jose as well as Ole. Jose drilled him into becoming a player he could never become and shouldn't have been forced into becoming.
We also cannot deny that PP was never provided the proper CDM that even Ray Charles could see we needed. Jose got one season out of Matic but after that we've been playing with 10 men for five seasons because Jose and then Ole were so in love with McTominay, which devolved into McFred.
Under these conditions, PP's role was anything but clear. Most footballers need a defined role. Some don't, but most do and PP certainly does. PP was left without a defined role and never developed into the player we expected we were getting.
That said, PP did not acquit himself as he should have, which has been discussed at great length here. And he's somehow become an injury-prone athlete, despite being an incredible athlete who's in the physical prime of his life.
No one denies that PP is a special talent and an extraordinary athlete. Even in the few minutes he's played this season, we've seen spectacular ball handling and positional awareness. I don't think anyone here would deny that PP was mismanaged by Jose as well as Ole. Jose drilled him into becoming a player he could never become and shouldn't have been forced into becoming.
We also cannot deny that PP was never provided the proper CDM that even Ray Charles could see we needed. Jose got one season out of Matic but after that we've been playing with 10 men for five seasons because Jose and then Ole were so in love with McTominay, which devolved into McFred.
Under these conditions, PP's role was anything but clear. Most footballers need a defined role. Some don't, but most do and PP certainly does. PP was left without a defined role and never developed into the player we expected we were getting.
That said, PP did not acquit himself as he should have, which has been discussed at great length here. And he's somehow become an injury-prone athlete, despite being an incredible athlete who's in the physical prime of his life.
There were moments in games where Pogba had the ball, forwards made a clear run only for Pogba to try a hollywood pass that ends up for an opposition throw-in. He plays like he doesn't care and just wants to get done and move on. The blame lies with both parties. We were confused, he wasn't interested.
I wonder if redcafe will ever get over Pogba
probably not
probably not
Pogba for the first few years was genuinely a fantastic player. He was definitely playing in a team with less quality than he should have been.
Since his ankle injuries + more importantly COVID badly effecting him, he just isn't the same player anymore. We wasted his peak under Jose's defensive football.
He's a big musclar boy so stamina was never his best trait, but you can see he's definitely struggling to get around the pitch these days.
It's quite right to let him go now as his wage/performance levels aren't quite matching.
Since his ankle injuries + more importantly COVID badly effecting him, he just isn't the same player anymore. We wasted his peak under Jose's defensive football.
He's a big musclar boy so stamina was never his best trait, but you can see he's definitely struggling to get around the pitch these days.
It's quite right to let him go now as his wage/performance levels aren't quite matching.
I disagree with the latter. Ed fecking Woodward is the one to blame the most.
Pogba at Juve played such a different role to the one at United.
Basically was a runner/water carrier for Pirlo, just like Vidal and Marchisio.
I think people expected him to be a Xavi type which could've been possible because he had the skills, but there's much more than just technique required to control a game from midfield, there's the awareness and intelligence bit as well - some will say it can be trained but i think we've seen enough samples through history that this rarely happens.
Basically was a runner/water carrier for Pirlo, just like Vidal and Marchisio.
I think people expected him to be a Xavi type which could've been possible because he had the skills, but there's much more than just technique required to control a game from midfield, there's the awareness and intelligence bit as well - some will say it can be trained but i think we've seen enough samples through history that this rarely happens.
The club absolutely did break him, as they have broken just about every outfield player over the past few years. It's not an exaggeration to say that fully 100% of players have regressed during their time at United. That is not down to effort, mentality or poor scouting. Many of these guys were entering what should have been the peak of their career, some world class players or on the cusp of being world class players.
None of our players have been trained or coached properly for years here. United players have been set up for failure. Even watching our games, our players are constantly in disadvantageous positions, which is why we have relied on individual brilliance for so much of our goal scoring. Technical training, physical training, tactics, nutrition, etc. It's tough from the outside to pinpoint exactly but without a doubt, they player development, training and coaching system is rotten.
None of our players have been trained or coached properly for years here. United players have been set up for failure. Even watching our games, our players are constantly in disadvantageous positions, which is why we have relied on individual brilliance for so much of our goal scoring. Technical training, physical training, tactics, nutrition, etc. It's tough from the outside to pinpoint exactly but without a doubt, they player development, training and coaching system is rotten.
He wasn’t a DM and that first season was nowhere near as good as you remember. Even allowing for the honeymoon period where new signings basically escape criticism for their first few months at the club there was a lot of people feeling very underwhelmed at Pogba’s contribution in that season. If anything, the debut game Klopp mentions in the OP stood out as being very atypical of what Pogba produced for most of the rest of 2016/17. That season was basically exactly the same as every season since. Inconsistent and flattering to deceive. The only real difference was fewer injuries.
Post from first page of that thread I linked:
Few months? How about a few years?
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The only way any team get the best out of Pogba besides having other good players surrounding him is to have a hands-on manager drilling, giving him detailed instructions and micromanaging him to a T.
He cant be the focal point of a team linking the ball from defence to attack, much less in a system which is relatively freestyle.
I use the word micromanaging as well because I dont think he is a self-motivator or has that mental edge like other elite athletes.
He cant be the focal point of a team linking the ball from defence to attack, much less in a system which is relatively freestyle.
I use the word micromanaging as well because I dont think he is a self-motivator or has that mental edge like other elite athletes.
Forget Pogba, Jose absolutely destroyed what was left of De Gea's kicking fundamentals, telling players to panic hoof under pressure. I remember watching Bailly's first game and it looked for a while like he tried to retain what he learnt from spain playing composed from the back. A couple months later he was a total disaster at that aspect.
Sometimes I cant tell if the Jose bootlickers are trolling us when they say he has been vindicated. Throw in his fetish for that donkey of a striker and it's no surprise we are playing stone age now as we were the day he left the club.
Sometimes I cant tell if the Jose bootlickers are trolling us when they say he has been vindicated. Throw in his fetish for that donkey of a striker and it's no surprise we are playing stone age now as we were the day he left the club.
Couldn't agree more. Mourinho nearly broke Shaw as well.
Ehh.. bit of a tiring topic. Found myself getting indifferent during the season.
It's the usual very, perhaps extremely talented player who for whatever reason, dropped off.
We know it's not a physical drop. Who knows whats going on in his head, other than not being committed to us for some time.
c'est la vie, bye!
It's the usual very, perhaps extremely talented player who for whatever reason, dropped off.
We know it's not a physical drop. Who knows whats going on in his head, other than not being committed to us for some time.
c'est la vie, bye!
Barely played under SAF. Mourinho was a parasite who thought he was holding midfielder. Ole didn't have the tactical ability to salvage him. Rangnick inherited an injured player with one foot out the door.
No-one 'broke' Pogba, he just hasn't used the last 5 years to work on the bits of his game which hold him back from being a top class midfielder. If he'd shown any ability or willingness to improve his decision-making, positioning, workrate etc. he'd be one of the best players in the world. As it is, he's brilliant at about half the things a midfielder needs to do and terrible at the other half.
The whole physical advantage thing is a complete myth. He has incredible upper body strength to hold off pressure which is great but doesn't have the low center of gravity, reaction speed, ability to turn or change direction quickly etc that many many other footballers do. Pogba essentially moves like a languid number 10 or old school forward. For me his technical qualities are far superior to his physical ones.