[Poborsky's hair]

Thank goodness you're not his agent

"Average" midfielder who started for England in the Euro final campaign, and starts for Manchester United.
He's not even "average" as a top flight midfielder, let alone in any other sense of the word.

Are you his mother?

Once again this argument with sub-par international football, a few games doesnt compare to the top-tier tempo in full premier league season ffs

coming back of this short purple patch again and again is becoming tiring really.

 

[Posh Red]

Are you his mother?

Once again this argument with sub-par international football, a few games doesnt compare to the top-tier tempo in full premier league season ffs

coming back of this short purple patch again and again is becoming tiring really.

You severely underrate his quality for a midfielder of his age. And playing well in a major international final does carry meaning, given he is literally competing with the best midfielders in the world in said game.

 

[TwoSheds]

he's 21 next week, that's still young for midfielder, but the proiblem which everyone else is highlighting is that he quite clearly doesnt posses the standout attributes of a CM. I think he can improve as well as much as any other player can do at this stage, but he will hardly start spraying balls around the pitch if he usually just plays safe passes and a lot of them backwards already.

Whenever he's attempting anythign over the top the accuracy is really not there at all. Then his physical attributes are setting us back in midfield too, with him on the pitch we cant simply play more up the pitch chasing the ball. This has to change with more physical football we need to play to succeed at the top level. Football is atheltic sport, at least at the CM, these type of players are needed.

Passing is absolutely something that can still improve a lot with practice. And we saw him play some excellent long passes in his first game or two under Carrick before he went back into tortoise mode. I'm not worried about his ability at all, I just want him to be more confident and express himself more instead of playing it safe. That's up to him alone unfortunately but there's no reason to think he can't do it. Loads of midfielders have continued to improve their passing throughout their 20s, not least of all Frank Lampard for example.

 

[Owen Hargo]

Yet you listed Malacia in the list.
If you can’t comprehend sarcasm, let me tell it straight: your posts reek of covert racism.
« black player doing [insert whatever activity a 20yo with money might do] during holidays is a lack of professionalism ». This rhetoric has been used again and again and Pogba was a prime example of media and public attention turning on him for whatever minor thing.
Maguire was arrested in Greece during holidays if you recall, why dont you list him? Most players attend sporting events, and travel far during their breaks. Mainoo so far has shown nothing indicating he wants to be a rapper as you put it.
Oh and btw Yoro travelled with him, is he an attention seeking player too?

Good lord this batch of newbies is horrendous and they even double down on their less than intelligent takes

You want to push the narrative of making this about race and I don’t. Yoro spends most of his vacations with Mainoo and there is nothing wrong with this. I don’t mind them doing extra training toghether when they travel. I love this actually and I think Yoro is good influence on Mainoo. Yoro understands he is still very young and developing. He is taking pride of captaining U21 of France and clearly sees his own trajectory. He gets benched and dropped under Amorim and was clearly thrown under the bus by Bruno on a post match game and I disagreed with how Bruno spoke the other day. Never had entourage issues like Mainoos brother. He liked posts mocking his former boss the day they were sacked. Something you will never see Yoro do. You keep making this personal and talk about intelligence but clearly fail to see my point or get in my shoes or at least help me get in your shoes to see where you are coming from but prefer to attack me personally and call me less intelligent.

 

[Frank White]

You want to push the narrative of making this about race and I don’t. Yoro spends most of his vacations with Mainoo and there is nothing wrong with this. I don’t mind them doing extra training toghether when they travel. I love this actually and I think Yoro is good influence on Mainoo. Yoro understands he is still very young and developing. He is taking pride of captaining U21 of France and clearly sees his own trajectory. He gets benched and dropped under Amorim and was clearly thrown under the bus by Bruno on a post match game and I disagreed with how Bruno spoke the other day. Never had entourage issues like Mainoos brother. He liked posts mocking his former boss the day they were sacked. Something you will never see Yoro do. You keep making this personal and talk about intelligence but clearly fail to see my point or get in my shoes or at least help me get in your shoes to see where you are coming from but prefer to attack me personally and call me less intelligent.

So why did you add Malacia into that list who, as far as I'm aware done nothing like you suggested the others have done but then left out Hojlund who at best threw a subtle shot at United when he won a trophy with Napoli?

What is your point? You've said you'd never catch uncle Cas go to a NBA game mid season and it's been pointed out he did then you've moved the goal post to he didn't sit front row or he limited the comments on his post which I'm not sure why that matters. You've acknowledged that they do training whilst on holiday so it's more than likely he'd have done that on this holiday too right? So what is the problem? United must be well aware of this trip too so as long as he don't come back late it's a bit of a non issue.

 

[TheReligion]

Is Mason Mount black?

I’ve heard he does a mean version of Stan

 

[Yagami]

We do miss him when he's out. Of course he's not perfect, and needs to improve on a lot of things, but having a midfielder you know will keep the ball the majority of the time really helps the teams composure as a whole.

You can say that it has a lot to do with Ugarte being a huge step down rather than Mainoo being good enough himself, which is fair enough, but, as things stand, he's an important player to have in the 11.

Ideally we strengthen the midfield in the summer with more technical midfielders, allowing Mainoo to be more of a rotation player who can develop without the pressure of needing start every game, but, until then, we really need him in the midfield for our remaining 6 games.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

We do miss him when he's out. Of course he's not perfect, and needs to improve on a lot of things, but having a midfielder you know will keep the ball the majority of the time really helps the teams composure as a whole.

You can say that it has a lot to do with Ugarte being a huge step down rather than Mainoo being good enough himself, which is fair enough, but, as things stand, he's an important player to have in the 11.

Ideally we strengthen the midfield in the summer with more technical midfielders, allowing Mainoo to be more of a rotation player who can develop without the pressure of needing start every game, but, until then, we really need him in the midfield for our remaining 6 games.

Most definitely. He’s not the most adventurous, we know that, but he brings a calmness to the otherwise chaotic yet effective pairing of Casemiro and Bruno.

 

[Agila Dathi]

Maybe he will be a world beater in the future, but right now he’s not offering us anything more than Tom Cleverley did back in the days. Holds the ball and cam pass it to the sides.
Too arrogant for his ability IMO.
Really hope he will be great though

 

[Lash]

We do miss him when he's out. Of course he's not perfect, and needs to improve on a lot of things, but having a midfielder you know will keep the ball the majority of the time really helps the teams composure as a whole.

You can say that it has a lot to do with Ugarte being a huge step down rather than Mainoo being good enough himself, which is fair enough, but, as things stand, he's an important player to have in the 11.

Ideally we strengthen the midfield in the summer with more technical midfielders, allowing Mainoo to be more of a rotation player who can develop without the pressure of needing start every game, but, until then, we really need him in the midfield for our remaining 6 games.

He would have got absolutely ran over today the way we played. It would have been useful to not have someone who constantly gave the ball away, but he would have struggled today with the intensity.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Maybe he will be a world beater in the future, but right now he’s not offering us anything more than Tom Cleverley did back in the days. Holds the ball and cam pass it to the sides.
Too arrogant for his ability IMO.
Really hope he will be great though

How so? Is it because he wanted to go on loan when being clearly told he's back up to one of the best players in the world?

 

[Yagami]

He would have got absolutely ran over today the way we played. It would have been useful to not have someone who constantly gave the ball away, but he would have struggled today with the intensity.

Maybe, it could've gone either way. Ugarte really struggling set us back greatly in terms of trying to play out of pressure, and we know Mainoo is one of our better players in that regard, so just that improvement alone could've gone a long way to helping us play better.

Most definitely. He’s not the most adventurous, we know that, but he brings a calmness to the otherwise chaotic yet effective pairing of Casemiro and Bruno.

You see it when he plays that Casemiro and Bruno both trust him in tight spaces as they'll often pass it to him when he's crowded. Having a teammate like that you can trust compared to a teammate you're reluctant to give the ball to in Ugarte makes the world of difference.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

He would have got absolutely ran over today the way we played. It would have been useful to not have someone who constantly gave the ball away, but he would have struggled today with the intensity.

Bournemouth play with just as much, if not, more intensity than Leeds, and he did perfectly fine in that game. Actually, if he wasn't for shite refereeing, we'd have probably won that 3-1.

 

[The Hilton]

He would have got absolutely ran over today the way we played. It would have been useful to not have someone who constantly gave the ball away, but he would have struggled today with the intensity.

Ugarte today finished with more successful passes tonight than Mainoo managed against Bournemouth. And he had 3 times the defensive contributions too. He finished with an 87% passing success rate, so he didn't give the ball away that much at all.

For all the fuss made about how bad Ugarte is, he had to play as a midfielder and as a fullback tonight as Shaw was constantly caught out. With Mainoo's much poorer tracking back Leeds would have had the freedom of the wing.

 

[The Hilton]

Bournemouth play with just as much, if not, more intensity than Leeds, and he did perfectly fine in that game. Actually, if he wasn't for shite refereeing, we'd have probably won that 3-1.

Mainoo completed 41 passes against Bournemouth, and chipped in with 3 defensive contributions. By contrast, Ugarte completed 45 passes tonight, and finished with 11 defensive contributions.

There's no way one of these performances is "fine" while the other is dreadful.

 

[Yagami]

Mainoo completed 41 passes against Bournemouth, and chipped in with 3 defensive contributions. By contrast, Ugarte completed 45 passes tonight, and finished with 11 defensive contributions.

There's no way one of these performances is "fine" while the other is dreadful.

Context is key, though. Bournemouth away is much tougher than Leeds at home.

 

[Lennon7]

Context is key, though. Bournemouth away is much tougher than Leeds at home.

Not today though. Was just as difficult

 

[Lash]

Maybe, it could've gone either way. Ugarte really struggling set us back greatly in terms of trying to play out of pressure, and we know Mainoo is one of our better players in that regard, so just that improvement alone could've gone a long way to helping us play better.


You see it when he plays that Casemiro and Bruno both trust him in tight spaces as they'll often pass it to him when he's crowded. Having a teammate like that you can trust compared to a teammate you're reluctant to give the ball to in Ugarte makes the world of difference.

Definitely would have helped, but they were all over everyone. I don't think as a team we would have coped and he struggles on transitions, which they did very effectively.

Bournemouth play with just as much, if not, more intensity than Leeds, and he did perfectly fine in that game. Actually, if he wasn't for shite refereeing, we'd have probably won that 3-1.

I'm pointing to the team performance and what that would expose Mainoo to in this game. This would have been terrible for him.

Ugarte today finished with more successful passes tonight than Mainoo managed against Bournemouth. And he had 3 times the defensive contributions too. He finished with an 87% passing success rate, so he didn't give the ball away that much at all.

For all the fuss made about how bad Ugarte is, he had to play as a midfielder and as a fullback tonight as Shaw was constantly caught out. With Mainoo's much poorer tracking back Leeds would have had the freedom of the wing.

Be interested to see what it was when he was in midfield vs when he was playing as the CB. I feel like he mainly gave it away when he was in midfield, thought he was far better deeper, but they were easier passes.

 

[lex talionis]

Kobbie Mainoo has somehow become the whipping boy on this forum. Is it a coincidence that we got overrun in midfield today with Kobbie out and Ugarte in? Perhaps. But no sane person should ever infer from the stats that we're stronger in midfield with Kobbie out and Ugarte in. But if that's how we feel, we deserve to lose matches like this.

 

[The Hilton]

Context is key, though. Bournemouth away is much tougher than Leeds at home.

On paper maybe, but Leeds played far better tonight than Bournemouth did.

 

[mav_9me]

Ugarte today finished with more successful passes tonight than Mainoo managed against Bournemouth. And he had 3 times the defensive contributions too. He finished with an 87% passing success rate, so he didn't give the ball away that much at all.

For all the fuss made about how bad Ugarte is, he had to play as a midfielder and as a fullback tonight as Shaw was constantly caught out. With Mainoo's much poorer tracking back Leeds would have had the freedom of the wing.

Do you think Bournemouth are in general a better pressing team than Leeds? Cuz I think so and Leeds had better success with their press because we didn't have Mainoo. I am not sure stats can show that. That's what I saw with my eyes. But yeah could have been similar performance even with Mainoo, who knows.

 

[The Hilton]

Be interested to see what it was when he was in midfield vs when he was playing as the CB. I feel like he mainly gave it away when he was in midfield, thought he was far better deeper, but they were easier passes.

Ugarte misplaced 7 passes. Looking at the pass map, 2 were from a CB position (both long attempts), 2 were in central midfield, 1 on the wing, and 2 were in attacking areas (long through ball attempts that didn't come off).

 

[Sylar]

On paper maybe, but Leeds played far better tonight than Bournemouth did.

You could say that's because one team faced mainoo and one team faced ugarte ...

 

[Yagami]

Not today though. Was just as difficult

On paper maybe, but Leeds played far better tonight than Bournemouth did.

His absence made things even more difficult, imo. Without a CM who can play under pressure, we are just too easy to press, and for all of Mainoo's faults, his ability to resist pressing opposition is usually good.

Basically what @mav_9me says above me.

@Lash also makes a fair point about transitions, which Mainoo struggles with, but we have been defensively sound with Mainoo coming back into the 11 since Carrick arrived for the most part so I wouldn't have been too worried myself in that regard.

 

[The Hilton]

Do you think Bournemouth are in general a better pressing team than Leeds? Cuz I think so and Leeds had better success with their press because we didn't have Mainoo. I am not sure stats can show that. That's what I saw with my eyes. But yeah could have been similar performance even with Mainoo, who knows.

But Leeds didn't have better success because we didn't have Mainoo. Ugarte had a good pass completion rate, it was Casemiro who lost possession more. Our biggest problem in midfield was an inability to progress the ball, but that's a major weakness of Mainoo too. Ugarte was basically playing the Mainoo role on the ball today - passively recycling possession, which he did almost as well as Mainoo would by the stats.

The bigger difference was defensively, Ugarte was forced to do a lot of Shaw's job for him, had Mainoo been in that position he'd have been much less involved defensively and Leeds would have had even more dangerous opportunities in wide areas.

 

[Lash]

Ugarte misplaced 7 passes. Looking at the pass map, 2 were from a CB position (both long attempts), 2 were in central midfield, 1 on the wing, and 2 were in attacking areas (long through ball attempts that didn't come off).

Cheers. Either way, I don't think he had a good game and I don't think Mainoo would have faired any better the way we played today.

 

[Agila Dathi]

How so? Is it because he wanted to go on loan when being clearly told he's back up to one of the best players in the world?

No, because had his brother protest for him at Old Trafford (don’t tell me he did not know, or had anything to do with it)
He liked every Instgram post that criticizes his manager.
He put a stinker every time he got the opportunity to prove himself but for some reason Amorim was the problem.
We’ve seen this picture before with Rashford, Lingard, Samcho and Garnacho. Stop whining and prove to your manager that you deserve to play!
Mainoo is young, injury prone and so far he has not proved that he should be a guaranteed starter. I really don’t like where things seem to be going with him.

 

[Lash]

His absence made things even more difficult, imo. Without a CM who can play under pressure, we are just too easy to press, and for all of Mainoo's faults, his ability to resist pressing opposition is usually good.

Basically what @mav_9me says above me.

@Lash also makes a fair point about transitions, which Mainoo struggles with, but we have been defensively sound with Mainoo coming back into the 11 since Carrick arrived for the most part so I wouldn't have been too worried myself in that regard.

And maybe it would have transformed the way we played today, I just don't think he's that impactful - especially when we have a collective performance as bad as that.

 

[The Hilton]

His absence made things even more difficult, imo. Without a CM who can play under pressure, we are just too easy to press, and for all of Mainoo's faults, his ability to resist pressing opposition is usually good.

Basically what @mav_9me says above me.

@Lash also makes a fair point about transitions, which Mainoo struggles with, but we have been defensively sound with Mainoo coming back into the 11 since Carrick arrived for the most part so I wouldn't have been too worried myself in that regard.

What would Mainoo do that Ugarte didn't? Ugarte kept the ball well, he finished with a passing success rate of 87%. The direct comparison between their most recent games is an almost identical contribution on the ball - passive recycling of possession but not losing the ball much.

Off the ball Ugarte offers significantly more, and we'd have been much more exposed with Mainoo in his place.

 

[Big Ron’s Coat]

The dropoff from Kobbie to Ugarte is chasmic. Anyone suggesting otherwise is silly. Hope he’s back for Chelsea.

 

[The Hilton]

Cheers. Either way, I don't think he had a good game and I don't think Mainoo would have faired any better the way we played today.

I agree he wasn't very good, but this is my main point, Ugarte put in an extremely Mainoo-esque performance on the ball (although much better off it), yet many of the same posters who are calling Ugarte rubbish would do somersaults for the same risk averse passing performance from Mainoo.

 

[Borys]

Do you think Bournemouth are in general a better pressing team than Leeds? Cuz I think so and Leeds had better success with their press because we didn't have Mainoo. I am not sure stats can show that. That's what I saw with my eyes. But yeah could have been similar performance even with Mainoo, who knows.

It's not about pressing, Leeds were set up in a way that kept our front 3 isolated from midfield. We had a lot of possession in periods of the game (but we couldn't do anything with the ball), and only looked vulnerable because the fullbacks were lost on what to do. That combined with Casemiro passing and Yoro dominated physically resulted in Leeds being on top. Mainoo wouldn't have changed anything, not for the better at least since Ugarte did a lot of cleaning / supporting work.

I agree he wasn't very good, but this is my main point, Ugarte put in an extremely Mainoo-esque performance on the ball (although much better off it), yet many of the same posters who are calling Ugarte rubbish would do somersaults for the same risk averse passing performance from Mainoo.

This. Mainoo makes it look more swift, but there is not much difference in terms of impact. Casemiro never plays that bad with Mainoo though.

 

[The Hilton]

You could say that's because one team faced mainoo and one team faced ugarte ...

Only if you had the depth of thought of a petri dish. Ugarte put in a carbon copy of Mainoo's performances under Carrick on the ball - recycled possession passively but without losing the ball much, didn't offer anything going forward. Defensively Ugarte was more involved than we ever see from Mainoo. It's quite telling how an almost identical performance on the ball gets such different treatment based on which player we're talking about.

 

[Yagami]

And maybe it would have transformed the way we played today, I just don't think he's that impactful - especially when we have a collective performance as bad as that.

That's fair enough. Mainoo has bad games himself so he could've had another here. I just think what he brings to the team is underrated.

What would Mainoo do that Ugarte didn't? Ugarte kept the ball well, he finished with a passing success rate of 87%. The direct comparison between their most recent games is an almost identical contribution on the ball - passive recycling of possession but not losing the ball much.

Off the ball Ugarte offers significantly more, and we'd have been much more exposed with Mainoo in his place.

I know you're not big on Mainoo, and a lot of your criticism is valid, but wouldn't you agree that we usually fair better against an opponents press with Mainoo in the team who can often pull off a turn that loses his man, or when he carries the ball forward before giving a simple pass to one of our attackers who'll do the damage in the oppositions third? Even his link-up in tight spaces where what he does us relatively simple, but is something Ugarte doesn't do.

Just those aspects of his play are huge difference makers for me. Now, are those alone enough to be a starter here? Ideally not, and he'd be developing as a rotation option here behind midfielders who have those attributes on top of just being a more complete cm in general, but considering our current options, we need him in the 11.

 

[The Hilton]

I know you're not big on Mainoo, and a lot of your criticism is valid, but wouldn't you agree that we usually fair better against an opponents press with Mainoo in the team who can often pull off a turn that loses his man, or when he carries the ball forward before giving a simple pass to one of our attackers who'll do the damage in the oppositions third? Even his link-up in tight spaces where what he does us relatively simple, but is something Ugarte doesn't do.

Just those aspects of his play are huge difference makers for me. Now, are those alone enough to be a starter here? Ideally not, and he'd be developing as a rotation option here behind midfielders who have those attributes on top of just being a more complete cm in general, but considering our current options, we need him in the 11.

Again the evidence contradicts you. Mainoo against Bournemouth managed 8 carries, for a total distance of 60.8m, and a total progression of 32.8m. Ugarte tonight manged 13 carries, for a total distance of 108.4m, and a total progression of 42.9m.

Combine that with the higher number of successful passes, and Ugarte tonight effectively out-Mainoo'd Mainoo in his performance against Bournemouth. While I agree Mainoo generally looks silkier doing it, what Ugarte offered today is the same thing Mainoo offers every week. In both cases, it isn't good enough, and that's the point I'm trying to make. The difference is that this thread is full of excuses, while the Ugarte thread is full of acceptance that he isn't good enough, often from the same posters.

 

[Yagami]

Again the evidence contradicts you. Mainoo against Bournemouth managed 8 carries, for a total distance of 60.8m, and a total progression of 32.8m. Ugarte tonight manged 13 carries, for a total distance of 108.4m, and a total progression of 42.9m.

Combine that with the higher number of successful passes, and Ugarte tonight effectively out-Mainoo'd Mainoo in his performance against Bournemouth. While I agree Mainoo generally looks silkier doing it, what Ugarte offered today is the same thing Mainoo offers every week. In both cases, it isn't good enough, and that's the point I'm trying to make. The difference is that this thread is full of excuses, while the Ugarte thread is full of acceptance that he isn't good enough, often from the same posters.

Fair enough if it contradicts me but I gotta go off what I see.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

No, because had his brother protest for him at Old Trafford (don’t tell me he did not know, or had anything to do with it)
He liked every Instgram post that criticizes his manager.
He put a stinker every time he got the opportunity to prove himself but for some reason Amorim was the problem.
We’ve seen this picture before with Rashford, Lingard, Samcho and Garnacho. Stop whining and prove to your manager that you deserve to play!
Mainoo is young, injury prone and so far he has not proved that he should be a guaranteed starter. I really don’t like where things seem to be going with him.

That's your opinion and it's totally fine.

Moving topic, why on earth gets mentioned with the rest of those players always baffles me but I guess that is another discussion.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

We missed him big time today. He brings calmness to our midfield, shows how important he is to the team. Today the midfield looked completely lost. It would’ve been a different game if he was available. Same goes for Maguire in defence. Both were missed today,

 

[Jeffthered]

We missed him big time today. He brings calmness to our midfield, shows how important he is to the team. Today the midfield looked completely lost. It would’ve been a different game if he was available. Same goes for Maguire in defence. Both were missed today,

Nah. He would have made little difference. He hasn't been playing that well.

 

[NHLYR 1878]

Mainoo completed 41 passes against Bournemouth, and chipped in with 3 defensive contributions. By contrast, Ugarte completed 45 passes tonight, and finished with 11 defensive contributions.

There's no way one of these performances is "fine" while the other is dreadful.

I don't know what game you watched tonight pal, but Ugarte was terrible.

Everyone was crap, but Ugarte was woeful. He gave the ball away, lacked composure, was jogging instead of running and all night was unaware of his teammates and that scummy opposition.

Kobbie was not exactly Pirlo 2004-2013 against Bournemouth, but he did not do a great deal wrong as I recall, whereas Ugarte did little right tonight.