[Doracle]

He would have got absolutely ran over today the way we played. It would have been useful to not have someone who constantly gave the ball away, but he would have struggled today with the intensity.

He rarely gives the ball away and is great in the press. As soon as he’s missing, we start getting caught on the ball trying to play out and give away one goal because of it - nearly two.

Mainoo is vital to our ability to control games. We have no one to cover for him. We win that game easily tonight with him playing - that’s how important he is.

 

[Grande]

It's not about what I watched, it's about what objectively happened. The stats are very clear, and they demonstrate basically the opposite of what you've written.

I think you’ve demonstrated that what objectively happened was that someone counted 45 completed passes and 11 defensive contributions from Ugarte.

To claim this demonstrates also that he didn’t play a terrible game seems a very subjective and also difficult-to-wrap-my-head-around interpretation.

 

[Big Ron’s Coat]

It's not about what I watched, it's about what objectively happened. The stats are very clear, and they demonstrate basically the opposite of what you've written.

This isn’t baseball. Stats don’t speak to positional discipline or proficient movement to show for the ball or a host of other factors which contribute to a midfielder’s (and any footballer’s for that matter) performance on the pitch.

Ugarte was a headless chicken yet again and did absolutely nothing to compose our play never mind progress the ball. Anyone with any sense can see that he is nowhere near even an out-of-form Mainoo despite whatever you claim the stats are saying.

 

[The Hilton]

I think you’ve demonstrated that what objectively happened was that someone counted 45 completed passes and 11 defensive contributions from Ugarte.

To claim this demonstrates also that he didn’t play a terrible game seems a very subjective and also difficult-to-wrap-my-head-around interpretation.

I'm not claiming that, I'm simply pointing out the large similarity between Ugarte's game today and Mainoo's usual offerings. Ugarte passed the ball pretty successfully (87% completion rate), and carried the ball fairly well. But most of his use of possession was passive, sideways, and unthreatening. All hallmarks of Mainoo's game. The difference is that Ugarte gets slammed for his "terrible" performance today, whereas the same offering from Mainoo every week is hailed as much better, despite them being very similar (except Ugarte was significantly more active defensively).

 

[The Hilton]

This isn’t baseball. Stats don’t speak to positional discipline or proficient movement to show for the ball or a host of other factors which contribute to a midfielder’s (and any footballer’s for that matter) performance on the pitch.

Ugarte was a headless chicken yet again and did absolutely nothing to compose our play never mind progress the ball. Anyone with any sense can see that he is nowhere near even an out-of-form Mainoo despite whatever you claim the stats are saying.

You've quoted 2 of Mainoo's biggest weaknesses there, especially positional discipline and progressing the ball. But there are some things that stats can tell us, objectively, and they show that on the ball Ugarte offered the same thing Mainoo normally does (high passing completion rate, all very passive and focused on recycling possession with no threat, similarly passive carrying), while being more involved in terms of defensive contributions.

If you saw Ugarte's performance as significantly worse than an out-of-form Mainoo, then the issue is your inability to view their performances without bias. Ugarte tonight put in a very Mainoo-esque performance, and that should make it clear that neither are good enough to be starting for us.

 

[Big Ron’s Coat]

You've quoted 2 of Mainoo's biggest weaknesses there, especially positional discipline and progressing the ball. But there are some things that stats can tell us, objectively, and they show that on the ball Ugarte offered the same thing Mainoo normally does (high passing completion rate, all very passive and focused on recycling possession with no threat, similarly passive carrying), while being more involved in terms of defensive contributions.

If you saw Ugarte's performance as significantly worse than an out-of-form Mainoo, then the issue is your inability to view their performances without bias. Ugarte tonight put in a very Mainoo-esque performance, and that should make it clear that neither are good enough to be starting for us.

Seems like you’re the one with an axe to grind here. None of our youngsters aside from Lammens are pulling up trees at the moment but the dropoff from Mainoo to Ugarte is massive. Not only in individual play but in our overall play as a team.

Mainoo has some improving to do which is natural as he is still young and learning but he offers far more than Ugarte does or ever will as the latter is not a PL level midfielder and never will be and you only need your eyeballs to ascertain that.

 

[Sylar]

Only if you had the depth of thought of a petri dish. Ugarte put in a carbon copy of Mainoo's performances under Carrick on the ball - recycled possession passively but without losing the ball much, didn't offer anything going forward. Defensively Ugarte was more involved than we ever see from Mainoo. It's quite telling how an almost identical performance on the ball gets such different treatment based on which player we're talking about.

Right. But we both know that football isn't played like that right?
Numbers don't take into consideration a whole load of other things like team mates performances. Or the types of passes of involvements.

If you watch based on numbers, sure it's identical.

 

[The Big Magc]

@The Hilton

I was like you, I wanted to see a Casemiro Ugarte Midfield because I didn't think Mainoo's safe passing and Ugarte's safe passing was very different - as such we would benefit from Ugarte's ability to tackle.

However, one thing I noticed today is that Ugarte takes too much touches & time on the ball, usually to make a safe pass which kills our attack.

By that time the opposition are in a safe enough position to have read where the ball is going to go to and have restructured or cut off a passing lane.

Whilst Mainoo's passing is also safe- his safe passes take much less time on the ball and require fewer touches allowing us to play to a tempo of recycling the ball between our midfield quickly and never letting the opposition have the ability to properly restructure during possession.

It's like Ugarte had to think 3 times before making a simple pass whilst Mainoo has to only think once.

It's why the quantity of passes doesn't just matter, how quickly they are done is just as important.

 

[Lash]

He rarely gives the ball away and is great in the press. As soon as he’s missing, we start getting caught on the ball trying to play out and give away one goal because of it - nearly two.

Mainoo is vital to our ability to control games. We have no one to cover for him. We win that game easily tonight with him playing - that’s how important he is.

Massively overstating his impact here, in my opinion. In general, we don't control games and Mainoo isn't some dictator of play. Yesterday was a clusterfeck of a team performance in that first half and I think Mainoo would been exposed to the worst parts of it.

 

[Fortitude]

It's not about what I watched, it's about what objectively happened. The stats are very clear, and they demonstrate basically the opposite of what you've written.

I'm not claiming that, I'm simply pointing out the large similarity between Ugarte's game today and Mainoo's usual offerings. Ugarte passed the ball pretty successfully (87% completion rate), and carried the ball fairly well. But most of his use of possession was passive, sideways, and unthreatening. All hallmarks of Mainoo's game. The difference is that Ugarte gets slammed for his "terrible" performance today, whereas the same offering from Mainoo every week is hailed as much better, despite them being very similar (except Ugarte was significantly more active defensively).

You've quoted 2 of Mainoo's biggest weaknesses there, especially positional discipline and progressing the ball. But there are some things that stats can tell us, objectively, and they show that on the ball Ugarte offered the same thing Mainoo normally does (high passing completion rate, all very passive and focused on recycling possession with no threat, similarly passive carrying), while being more involved in terms of defensive contributions.

If you saw Ugarte's performance as significantly worse than an out-of-form Mainoo, then the issue is your inability to view their performances without bias. Ugarte tonight put in a very Mainoo-esque performance, and that should make it clear that neither are good enough to be starting for us.

I really hope the club we can palm him off to interpret the data as you do as that will make for a clean sale at a good price. I suspect our own club were duped by Ugarte’s data and eagerly dove in on an atrocious purchase.

By your words Ugarte should be much better than he is. His performance was dire and you’re not only likening it to Mainoo’s game, you’re saying he’s done better than Mainoo does/would’ve done. If that’s what your eyes are telling you then it’s futile to go back and forth on, but it’s clear data is to be used only as a supplemental, not the primary, or you end up with players like this.

 

[Trigestis]

The dropoff from Kobbie to Ugarte is chasmic. Anyone suggesting otherwise is silly. Hope he’s back for Chelsea.

It is absolutely not. Individually, on the ball, then Mainoo is far, far better than Ugarte, but both provide very little. Ugarte provides energy and defensive work, but to suggest the difference is "chasmic" is bonkers. It is barely noticeable, as we've seen in a lot of the games that Mainoo has played in.

Looking good and composed on the ball is not being impactful. Neither should be starters next season, but obviously we need to keep Mainoo and sell Ugarte.

 

[The Hilton]

Seems like you’re the one with an axe to grind here. None of our youngsters aside from Lammens are pulling up trees at the moment but the dropoff from Mainoo to Ugarte is massive. Not only in individual play but in our overall play as a team.

Mainoo has some improving to do which is natural as he is still young and learning but he offers far more than Ugarte does or ever will as the latter is not a PL level midfielder and never will be and you only need your eyeballs to ascertain that.

Eyeballs are fallible, they can be easily influenced into seeing what one wants to see, you're demonstrating that clearly. The drop off isn't that massive, in fact comparing Mainoo against Bournemouth to Ugarte against Leeds there wasn't any drop off at all. The only difference is that we all accept Ugarte isn't good enough, whereas because Mainoo is from the academy there's a lot of justification, and imagination, to defend similar performances and limitations. The truth is that neither is good enough for us.

 

[The Hilton]

Right. But we both know that football isn't played like that right?
Numbers don't take into consideration a whole load of other things like team mates performances. Or the types of passes of involvements.

If you watch based on numbers, sure it's identical.

Are you trying to suggest that Mainoo playing makes everyone around him better? That's quite a stretch, given how little he offers beyond recycling possession.

The numbers are important, they're very useful for countering bias and subjective viewing. For example, this forum was full of posts lambasting Ugarte's passing and claiming he kept giving the ball away last night, when in fact he had an 87% passing success rate. The rest of the stats paint a picture that's very similar to a typical Mainoo performance on the ball, yet the reviews are very different.

 

[The Hilton]

@The Hilton

I was like you, I wanted to see a Casemiro Ugarte Midfield because I didn't think Mainoo's safe passing and Ugarte's safe passing was very different - as such we would benefit from Ugarte's ability to tackle.

However, one thing I noticed today is that Ugarte takes too much touches & time on the ball, usually to make a safe pass which kills our attack.

By that time the opposition are in a safe enough position to have read where the ball is going to go to and have restructured or cut off a passing lane.

Whilst Mainoo's passing is also safe- his safe passes take much less time on the ball and require fewer touches allowing us to play to a tempo of recycling the ball between our midfield quickly and never letting the opposition have the ability to properly restructure during possession.

It's like Ugarte had to think 3 times before making a simple pass whilst Mainoo has to only think once.

It's why the quantity of passes doesn't just matter, how quickly they are done is just as important.

This isn't accurate at all I'm afraid. Taking a long time on the ball is a hallmark of Mainoo's game. He often holds onto the ball for too long and allows the opposition to reset. Ugarte was similar last night, no doubt, but the idea that Mainoo is some sort of high tempo passing metronome is fanciful.

 

[Shinjch]

This isn't accurate at all I'm afraid. Taking a long time on the ball is a hallmark of Mainoo's game. He often holds onto the ball for too long and allows the opposition to reset. Ugarte was similar last night, no doubt, but the idea that Mainoo is some sort of high tempo passing metronome is fanciful.

Team mates clearly trust Mainoo a lot more with the ball than Ugarte, rightly so too. That's big over the course of a game. I felt like he was missed anyway.

 

[The Hilton]

I really hope the club we can palm him off to interpret the data as you do as that will make for a clean sale at a good price. I suspect our own club were duped by Ugarte’s data and eagerly dove in on an atrocious purchase.

By your words Ugarte should be much better than he is. His performance was dire and you’re not only likening it to Mainoo’s game, you’re saying he’s done better than Mainoo does/would’ve done. If that’s what your eyes are telling you then it’s futile to go back and forth on, but it’s clear data is to be used only as a supplemental, not the primary, or you end up with players like this.

You're misreading my post. I'm not claiming that Ugarte is particularly good, I'm pointing out that he put in a very Mainoo-esque performance last night. High passing success rate with slow, passive recycling of possession, and carrying the ball similarly too. What this should cause is the realisation that, if that Ugarte performance isn't good enough for where we want to be (which I agree), then neither is the same performance from Mainoo week after week.

Ugarte should be sold, and Mainoo should stay as a rotation option to see if he can add more to his game in terms of creativity, better positioning, etc, but Casemiro has been holding down the midfield by himself for us for weeks now and we saw last night what it looks like when he plays badly.

 

[The Big Magc]

Team mates clearly trust Mainoo a lot more with the ball than Ugarte, rightly so too. That's big over the course of a game. I felt like he was missed anyway.

Yes this too.

Our players wee trying to avoid passing to Ugarte as much.

It was very obvious to see & I'm not an Ugarte hater.

I saw Bruno directly facing Ugarte and yet looking at someone else he could pass to instead non progressively.

 

[The Hilton]

Team mates clearly trust Mainoo a lot more with the ball than Ugarte, rightly so too. That's big over the course of a game. I felt like he was missed anyway.

That's definitely subjective, given how much more involved Ugarte was on the ball against Leeds than Mainoo was against Bournemouth, for example. Way more touches, more successful passes, more carries, etc.

I agree that Mainoo is more secure in tight spaces, he's incredibly good at that, but the end result is the same - a sideways or backwards pass that allows the opposition to regain their shape.

 

[Frank White]

Eyeballs are fallible, they can be easily influenced into seeing what one wants to see, you're demonstrating that clearly. The drop off isn't that massive, in fact comparing Mainoo against Bournemouth to Ugarte against Leeds there wasn't any drop off at all. The only difference is that we all accept Ugarte isn't good enough, whereas because Mainoo is from the academy there's a lot of justification, and imagination, to defend similar performances and limitations. The truth is that neither is good enough for us.

Also he is a kid...... Back to yesterday I personally don't think Mainoo would have made much of a difference to last nights performance when it looked like the whole squad phoned it in and it's not like we haven't seen the team get ran through with Kobbie starting either but it's night and day when you compare them two on the ball.

Mainoo for the most part is pretty calm on the ball and instils confidence in himself that when pressed he'll ride the challenge and come away with the ball, Ugarte on the other hand feels like any pressure applied to him and he'll crack.

Add to the fact we don't seem to win many games when Ugarte starts matches apparently it's something like 1(W) and 6 (L) in 10. Obviously it's a loaded stat and there's mitigating factors other than Ugarte is shite so we lose games but it's a pretty damning stat nonetheless.

 

[Shinjch]

That's definitely subjective, given how much more involved Ugarte was on the ball against Leeds than Mainoo was against Bournemouth, for example. Way more touches, more successful passes, more carries, etc.

I agree that Mainoo is more secure in tight spaces, he's incredibly good at that, but the end result is the same - a sideways or backwards pass that allows the opposition to regain their shape.

Very subjective game, I suppose. We clearly see the game and how teams work differently anyway.

 

[Ali Dia]

The midfield should in theory be quite easy to upgrade. I'm not so sure. I'll believe it when I see it. We always struggle against teams who can afford to stick a third player in there and break on us. I think that's one of the few minuses of Bruno. He's a 10 with a free role

 

[The Hilton]

The midfield should in theory be quite easy to upgrade. I'm not so sure. I'll believe it when I see it. We always struggle against teams who can afford to stick a third player in there and break on us. I think that's one of the few minuses of Bruno. He's a 10 with a free role

It's more than just the midfield that we need to fix in order to have stability in the middle. In an ideal world we'd have one of our fullbacks inverting when we're in possession in order to close off transitions in central areas, and who could help with creativity. But none of our fullbacks have physical or technical tools to do that, our CBs don't have the pace to play high, and that's before we get to our midfielders of whom only Casemiro has the positional sense or ability to progress the ball and create things, and his legs are long gone (and he's leaving at the end of the season).

That means signing a minimum of 2 starting midfielders and a starting left back if we're to have any real hope of controlling matches next season. That would allow us to use Mainoo as a rotation option, or potentially even move him further forward where his ability in tight spaces can cause problems for the opposition.

 

[The Hilton]

Also he is a kid...... Back to yesterday I personally don't think Mainoo would have made much of a difference to last nights performance when it looked like the whole squad phoned it in and it's not like we haven't seen the team get ran through with Kobbie starting either but it's night and day when you compare them two on the ball.

Mainoo for the most part is pretty calm on the ball and instils confidence in himself that when pressed he'll ride the challenge and come away with the ball, Ugarte on the other hand feels like any pressure applied to him and he'll crack.

Add to the fact we don't seem to win many games when Ugarte starts matches apparently it's something like 1(W) and 6 (L) in 10. Obviously it's a loaded stat and there's mitigating factors other than Ugarte is shite so we lose games but it's a pretty damning stat nonetheless.

He is young, it's possible he'll improve and become a much better player, but he's not good enough at the moment. Looking silky when riding challenges is all very nice, but there's so much missing from his game in terms of progressing the ball, mid to long range passing, positional sense and discipline, etc. Retaining possession well while knocking the ball a few yards sideways or backwards as your only contribution isn't enough. That was true of Ugarte last night, and it's true of Mainoo when he plays.

 

[NHLYR 1878]

It's not about what I watched, it's about what objectively happened. The stats are very clear, and they demonstrate basically the opposite of what you've written.

The stats mean nothing as there is no substance. I reckon a centre-back clocks up a lot of high percentage passing statistics as a considerable number will be to his full-back and CB partner.

Therefore, passing statistics hold little weight when you consider many other factors, and shouldn't be used as a measure of one player's performance against another in a different match.

The stats don't show him standing still on the ball for 3 minutes before completing a two yard pass anybody could do, doesn't show some hidden knowledge or deeper understanding.

This reliance on the most basic of statistics that offer nothing material or particularly insightful when analysing a game of football is baffling.

 

[Frank White]

He is young, it's possible he'll improve and become a much better player, but he's not good enough at the moment. Looking silky when riding challenges is all very nice, but there's so much missing from his game in terms of progressing the ball, mid to long range passing, positional sense and discipline, etc. Retaining possession well while knocking the ball a few yards sideways or backwards as your only contribution isn't enough. That was true of Ugarte last night, and it's true of Mainoo when he plays.

Agreed but at 20 it's probably expected or at the very least accepted a little more then someone who's 25. Out of interest what where Ugarte stats saying for other defensive/offensive actions like amount dribbled past, key passes, unsuccessful touches etc? Did he do similar to Mainoo in that regard too?

 

[The Hilton]

The stats mean nothing as there is no substance. I reckon a centre-back clocks up a lot of high percentage passing statistics as a considerable number will be to his full-back and CB partner.

Therefore, passing statistics hold little weight when you consider many other factors, and shouldn't be used as a measure of one player's performance against another in a different match.

The stats don't show him standing still on the ball for 3 minutes before completing a two yard pass anybody could do, doesn't show some hidden knowledge or deeper understanding.

This reliance on the most basic of statistics that offer nothing material or particularly insightful when analysing a game of football is baffling.

There's a great deal of irony in you dismissing stats as offering "nothing material" while relying entirely on your own subjective viewing. Which resulted in objectively false statements like Ugarte giving the ball away a lot. You may not think the stats have much substance, but at least they're anchored in reality, whereas your assessment was contrary to it. It's one thing developing an incorrect opinion but not changing it to match objective reality is what's actually baffling.

 

[The Hilton]

Agreed but at 20 it's probably expected or at the very least accepted a little more then someone who's 25. Out of interest what where Ugarte stats saying for other defensive/offensive actions like amount dribbled past, key passes, unsuccessful touches etc? Did he do similar to Mainoo in that regard too?

I think the amount missing from his game is more than can be bridged with age. You can improve fitness a bit, acceleration and sprinting speed can be worked on, but he's starting from a pretty poor place athletically. Similarly on the technical side, long passing can be drilled to be a bit more accurate, positioning can be improved with lots of repetition, but the instincts aren't there and neither is the creative vision, that's the kind of stuff you either have or you don't.

I could be wrong, and Mainoo could rapidly develop the many areas of his game that have never looked like being good enough, I'd be delighted if that happened. We should hold onto him and get him minutes as a rotation option to give him the opportunity to do so. But realistically it's unlikely, and the talk of building our midfield around him is nothing short of insanity if we want to ever dream of controlling matches and winning things.

As for the comparison you asked for, defensively Ugarte was miles ahead, offensively they were similarly ineffective. A few defensive examples include 3 vs 11 defensive contributions, 9 duels 3 won vs 13 duels 7 won, 1 vs 0 dribbled past (all Mainoo vs Ugarte).

 

[Fenômeno]

We missed his link up and ball carrying yesterday

 

[NotoriousISSY]

We missed his link up and ball carrying yesterday

But but but he can’t ping it across the pitch like Scholes did so how could we miss him?

 

[NHLYR 1878]

There's a great deal of irony in you dismissing stats as offering "nothing material" while relying entirely on your own subjective viewing. Which resulted in objectively false statements like Ugarte giving the ball away a lot. You may not think the stats have much substance, but at least they're anchored in reality, whereas your assessment was contrary to it. It's one thing developing an incorrect opinion but not changing it to match objective reality is what's actually baffling.

I said he gave the ball away, not a lot, but nonetheless, was useless either by making poor / nothing passes or at times, giving the ball away, being indecisive and slow both on and off the ball.

E.g. Casemiro gave away the ball last night and was pretty sloppy, but he also did some good things too. Ugarte did little positive of note.

Simply saying that player a and b made an equal number of passes in two different matches, therefore their performances and impact on the game were equal, is disingenuous.

I could pluck up statistics of a goalkeeper who completed 40 passes in a game in the Brazilian league.... That tells me nothing other than two different players in two different games made the same number of passes.

I know that there are such very bland analyses of games, i.e. "more pashun" which are not insightful, but there are also those on the other end of the spectrum that use statistics as a way to say, pretty much, "well, actually because Tommy Dickfingers made twelve 4 yard passes, he's as good as X", when the evidence of your eyes says otherwise.

Some people even used statistics to say that Onana was a good keeper for us.

If you're using statistics from two different different players and games as a conclusive analysis, then there's little else I can say.

 

[The Hilton]

I said he gave the ball away, not a lot, but nonetheless, was useless either by making poor / nothing passes or at times, giving the ball away, being indecisive and slow both on and off the ball.

E.g. Casemiro gave away the ball last night and was pretty sloppy, but he also did some good things too. Ugarte did little positive of note.

Simply saying that player a and b made an equal number of passes in two different matches, therefore their performances and impact on the game were equal, is disingenuous.

I could pluck up statistics of a goalkeeper who completed 40 passes in a game in the Brazilian league.... That tells me nothing other than two different players in two different games made the same number of passes.

I know that there are such very bland analyses of games, i.e. "more pashun" which are not insightful, but there are also those on the other end of the spectrum that use statistics as a way to say, pretty much, "well, actually because Tommy Dickfingers made twelve 4 yard passes, he's as good as X", when the evidence of your eyes says otherwise.

Some people even used statistics to say that Onana was a good keeper for us.

If you're using statistics from two different different players and games as a conclusive analysis, then there's little else I can say.

Everyone gives the ball away sometimes. You're accusing me of making nothing statements yet come out with that? Come on dude. You clearly meant that he gave the ball away an undue amount, but that was proven to be false. Refusing to change your opinion in the face of evidence to the contrary is zealotry.

It's yet another example that you're clearly unable to be rational about Ugarte, claiming he did nothing of note when he had over double the defensive contributions of tCasemiro shows how contrary to reality your opinion is. To be clear, you've made multiple statements now that are demonstrably false, and rather than accept that you've just railed against stats like an old man yelling at clouds, only with extra strawmanning.

As for the rest, we're dragging the thread off topic as this is about Mainoo, and the comparison I was making between him and Ugarte has gotten lost in this conversation under the weight of your alternative facts. I don't want to derail the thread any further, nor do I care to engage with your frankly imaginary retelling of events, so I won't be replying to you any further.

 

[Rasmus_9]

I feel what Mainoo brings to the team isn’t about statistics; it’s more about composure and control. He’s the glue in the team and although may not look spectacular we play much more cohesively when he’s playing.

As a Northampton Saints rugby fan we have a player called Dingwall who does exactly the same. Not the flashiest player on the pitch but very noticeable when he’s not playing

 

[Jim Beam]

The difference is that this thread is full of excuses, while the Ugarte thread is full of acceptance that he isn't good enough, often from the same posters.

hilarious stuff.. but you do you

 

[Big Ron’s Coat]

hilarious stuff.. but you do you

Ridiculous innit. Ugarte is one of worst midfielders I’ve ever seen play for the club.

 

[Jim Beam]

Ridiculous innit. Ugarte is one of worst midfielders I’ve ever seen play for the club.

He has a clear agenda against Mainoo, so will use everything to push it.

 

[The Hilton]

hilarious stuff.. but you do you

Ridiculous innit. Ugarte is one of worst midfielders I’ve ever seen play for the club.

He has a clear agenda against Mainoo, so will use everything to push it.

Predictably, there's no actual contrary argument, resorting to as hominem attacks instead.

My "agenda" is simply that Mainoo isn't good enough for where we want to be. Maybe he'll get there one day, although I personally doubt it, but right now it's crystal clear.

 

[Posh Red]

We missed his link up and ball carrying yesterday

Massively. We desperately need more midfielders that can keep the ball.

 

[SirScholes]

Predictably, there's no actual contrary argument, resorting to as hominem attacks instead.

My "agenda" is simply that Mainoo isn't good enough for where we want to be. Maybe he'll get there one day, although I personally doubt it, but right now it's crystal clear.

Could be wrong but when ugarte starts our win % is 20% and mainoo 45%
Soon as I saw casemiro and ugarte I knew it was going to be rough

 

[Big Ron’s Coat]

Predictably, there's no actual contrary argument, resorting to as hominem attacks instead.

My "agenda" is simply that Mainoo isn't good enough for where we want to be. Maybe he'll get there one day, although I personally doubt it, but right now it's crystal clear.

It’s one thing to doubt his ability to make the spot his own right now which is fair enough. Comparing him to Ugarte is pure nonsense though.

Plenty are frustrated with Amad’s output right now but if you compared him to Bebe you wouldn’t be taken seriously and rightly so.

It’s just a laughable take.

 

[RobbieBerns]

How was Scholes’ passing range when he was Kobbie’s age, or in the early stages of his career in general? I’d be a lot less worried about Mainoo’s physicality if he had a stronger passing game. Can see why we would be “Anderson or bust” this summer given his unique combo of having that engine on top of the passing ability from deep.