[NHLYR 1878]

Everyone gives the ball away sometimes. You're accusing me of making nothing statements yet come out with that? Come on dude. You clearly meant that he gave the ball away an undue amount, but that was proven to be false. Refusing to change your opinion in the face of evidence to the contrary is zealotry.

It's yet another example that you're clearly unable to be rational about Ugarte, claiming he did nothing of note when he had over double the defensive contributions of tCasemiro shows how contrary to reality your opinion is. To be clear, you've made multiple statements now that are demonstrably false, and rather than accept that you've just railed against stats like an old man yelling at clouds, only with extra strawmanning.

As for the rest, we're dragging the thread off topic as this is about Mainoo, and the comparison I was making between him and Ugarte has gotten lost in this conversation under the weight of your alternative facts. I don't want to derail the thread any further, nor do I care to engage with your frankly imaginary retelling of events, so I won't be replying to you any further.

I think you're being a tad silly. Wind your neck in pal.

You can be as pedantic as you like and use all of the colourful words and platitudes that exist, but it still doesn't change the fact that it's ridiculous to compare two different players because they made the same number of passes against different opponents.

My interpretation of Ugarte aligned with everyone else I was stood next to in the Stretford End last night, but I guess we are all wrong.

 

[The Hilton]

I think you're being a tad silly. Wind your neck in pal.

You can be as pedantic as you like and use all of the colourful words and platitudes that exist, but it still doesn't change the fact that it's ridiculous to compare two different players because they made the same number of passes against different opponents.

My interpretation of Ugarte aligned with everyone else I was stood next to in the Stretford End last night, but I guess we are all wrong.

I'm a top red therefore my alternate reality must be true. Unassailable logic. One of us is definitely being silly and needs to wind their neck in!

I'll be putting you on ignore now, this conversation is a waste of everyone's time. All the best mate.

 

[The Hilton]

It’s one thing to doubt his ability to make the spot his own right now which is fair enough. Comparing him to Ugarte is pure nonsense though.

Plenty are frustrated with Amad’s output right now but if you compared him to Bebe you wouldn’t be taken seriously and rightly so.

It’s just a laughable take.

If you could point to a pattern of Amad having a similar (very limited) contribution every match, and then show an example of Bebe making an extremely similar contribution, then the comparison would be fair. I'm not comparing them as players, but I'm comparing performances.

It's evident that Ugarte's performance against Leeds ticked the same boxes on the ball that Mainoo's regular performances do. Holding on to the ball reasonably well but taking no responsibility for making anything happen. Extremely passive.

It's only laughable to you because you aren't able to analyse at the performances objectively. You've had multiple opportunities to explain what specifically the difference would be, but haven't been able to and have had to fall back on hyperbole. Lots of buzzwords like "nonsense", "laughable", "ridiculous", etc, but not a single piece of actual evidence to support your view. That's quite telling.

 

[Big Ron’s Coat]

If you could point to a pattern of Amad having a similar (very limited) contribution every match, and then show an example of Bebe making an extremely similar contribution, then the comparison would be fair. I'm not comparing them as players, but I'm comparing performances.

It's evident that Ugarte's performance against Leeds ticked the same boxes on the ball that Mainoo's regular performances do. Holding on to the ball reasonably well but taking no responsibility for making anything happen. Extremely passive.

It's only laughable to you because you aren't able to analyse at the performances objectively. You've had multiple opportunities to explain what specifically the difference would be, but haven't been able to and have had to fall back on hyperbole. Lots of buzzwords like "nonsense", "laughable", "ridiculous", etc, but not a single piece of actual evidence to support your view. That's quite telling.

Mate you’ve just trotted out the same line about pass completion and carries stats without bothering to address anything anyone has pointed out.

As @Fortitude said it’s just not really worth arguing.

 

[NHLYR 1878]

I'm a top red therefore my alternate reality must be true. Unassailable logic. One of us is definitely being silly and needs to wind their neck in!

I'll be putting you on ignore now, this conversation is a waste of everyone's time. All the best mate.

Who said they were a "top red"? If I'm a top red, then that surely makes you an Ugarte fanboy. See, you've reduced me to your level.

However, I do go to the games, so it is fair to say that I get a good grasp of what a large swathe of United fans think, which were unanimous that Ugarte was poor last night and that Kobbie was missed.

Anyway, I thought I'd look at Ugarte's stats and he lost possession 11 times and won only 25% of his aerial duels. By any measure as a midfielder or defender, that is dire.

Of his 88% successful passes, I'd wager that an average Joe could have completed 90% of those passes. Like I said, he performed between at times terrible and at times average - add those together and overall that does make more of a bad, rather than a good performance, surely?

The only one living in an alternate reality is you. There's nothing wrong with admitting that you were slightly misguided in your assessment.

 

[Zumbi]

He has a clear agenda against Mainoo, so will use everything to push it.

I suspect it’s related to the agenda he had in favour of Amorim, despite his very obvious failings. He was defending him to the very end claiming that Carrick wouldn’t be able to do a better job at securing top four.

 

[Sylar]

Are you trying to suggest that Mainoo playing makes everyone around him better? That's quite a stretch, given how little he offers beyond recycling possession.

The numbers are important, they're very useful for countering bias and subjective viewing. For example, this forum was full of posts lambasting Ugarte's passing and claiming he kept giving the ball away last night, when in fact he had an 87% passing success rate. The rest of the stats paint a picture that's very similar to a typical Mainoo performance on the ball, yet the reviews are very different.

I'm saying united are a better team with mainoo compared to ugarte and our players play better with compared to the other.

Numbers can be important but with no context, that's all they are, until you do a deeper analysis.

You're very very invested though in this thread.

 

[Stack]

this thread.... comedy gold

 

[Jim Beam]

I suspect it’s related to the agenda he had in favour of Amorim, despite his very obvious failings. He was defending him to the very end claiming that Carrick wouldn’t be able to do a better job at securing top four.

Pretty much

 

[michelleOntaRio-Rio]

Again the evidence contradicts you. Mainoo against Bournemouth managed 8 carries, for a total distance of 60.8m, and a total progression of 32.8m. Ugarte tonight manged 13 carries, for a total distance of 108.4m, and a total progression of 42.9m.

Combine that with the higher number of successful passes, and Ugarte tonight effectively out-Mainoo'd Mainoo in his performance against Bournemouth. While I agree Mainoo generally looks silkier doing it, what Ugarte offered today is the same thing Mainoo offers every week. In both cases, it isn't good enough, and that's the point I'm trying to make. The difference is that this thread is full of excuses, while the Ugarte thread is full of acceptance that he isn't good enough, often from the same posters.

You do know an apple isn’t an orange right? That being 2-0 up against 10 men away from home, fighting relegation…will impact the way the oppo plays ball. Is different to how ball will be played in a tight game between two even teams. We were away from home and never behind in the game.

Your agenda on Mainoo is toxic.

 

[The Hilton]

I'm saying united are a better team with mainoo compared to ugarte and our players play better with compared to the other.

Numbers can be important but with no context, that's all they are, until you do a deeper analysis.

You're very very invested though in this thread.

And I'm saying your claim is unsupported, Mainoo doesn't offer enough to the team and what he does offer - passive recycling of possession - is the same thing Ugarte offered against Leeds.

Your attempt at a personal attack is just as unsubstantiated. I'm not particularly invested, I just get a huge number of replies because a large number of posters can't accept that an academy player might not be good enough. Redcafe can get very defensive when you criticise an academy player, I had a lot of similar conversations in the Garnacho thread for example.

 

[Sylar]

And I'm saying your claim is unsupported, Mainoo doesn't offer enough to the team and what he does offer - passive recycling of possession - is the same thing Ugarte offered against Leeds.

Your attempt at a personal attack is just as unsubstantiated. I'm not particularly invested, I just get a huge number of replies because a large number of posters can't accept that an academy player might not be good enough. Redcafe can get very defensive when you criticise an academy player, I had a lot of similar conversations in the Garnacho thread for example.

You're invested
You're the third highest poster in this thread

That's not a personal attack or an attempt at one
That's stats which cannot be denied.

Look at United's results with mainoo starting Vs ugarte starting
Look at United's performances when mainoo is on the pitch Vs when ugarte is.
That supports my claim

 

[The Hilton]

You're invested
You're the third highest poster in this thread

That's not a personal attack or an attempt at one
That's stats which cannot be denied.

Look at United's results with mainoo starting Vs ugarte starting
Look at United's performances when mainoo is on the pitch Vs when ugarte is.
That supports my claim

It's actually an interpretation of the stats, an incorrect one. Lots of posts, not due to my own investment but due to lots of replies to field (and I don't like combining all replies into one post as it makes conversations difficult).

Our results with Mainoo starting have been good, but that's been more about clinical finishing than our performances, which have been poor for a while. But this is tangential to my original point, which isn't that Ugarte is better than Mainoo, but that against Leeds specifically Ugarte put in a performance that was very similar to Mainoo's performances, and that the latter wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever if he'd played instead.

 

[Sylar]

It's actually an interpretation of the stats, an incorrect one. Lots of posts, not due to my own investment but due to lots of replies to field (and I don't like combining all replies into one post as it makes conversations difficult).

Our results with Mainoo starting have been good, but that's been more about clinical finishing than our performances, which have been poor for a while. But this is tangential to my original point, which isn't that Ugarte is better than Mainoo, but that against Leeds specifically Ugarte put in a performance that was very similar to Mainoo's performances, and that the latter wouldn't have made any difference whatsoever if he'd played instead.

Surely you see the point now, right?

"An interpretation of stats."

Without deeper context, numbers are just that... Which you still keep pointing to.

We as a team are better and have better results with mainoo next to casemiro compared to ugarte, if you disagree so be it. I don't favour either, just want to see us win and play well

 

[USREDEVIL]

What's Kobbie's issue? New contract-itis? Seriously i havent seen any info

 

[Oranges038]

How was Scholes’ passing range when he was Kobbie’s age, or in the early stages of his career in general? I’d be a lot less worried about Mainoo’s physicality if he had a stronger passing game. Can see why we would be “Anderson or bust” this summer given his unique combo of having that engine on top of the passing ability from deep.

Scholes passing was always quality. He was also playing further forward, scoring goals. Less was being expected of him, he wasn't expected to step in and control the midfield by 21.

 

[Stickz]

nah can’t say Ugartes performance on Monday night reminded me of Mainoo, it was Ugarte through and through. Anxious and unimaginative, living his best life chewing away on his gum.

Gave it away for their near miss two mins in then made a shocking attempt to block the cross for the opener - he’s checked out, I called it after his Bournemouth cameo.

If he starts on the weekend you may as well spare yourself the disappointment.

 

[Bastian]

He available or what?

 

[Frank White]

He available or what?

"Kobbie is doing little bits, he's working toward it, he's doing bits, so there's a decision to be made," From Carrick in the Friday presser so looks like it's 50/50 at this point.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think he won't play Saturday.

 

[Bastian]

"Kobbie is doing little bits, he's working toward it, he's doing bits, so there's a decision to be made," From Carrick in the Friday presser so looks like it's 50/50 at this point.

Ah, sounds like he'll play. He said the same about Martinez who started after a fairly decent layoff. And Ugarte is obviously a calamity.

 

[roonster09]

What a game he had

 

[Isotope]

Fuking hell. What a performance, Mainoo.

 

[Anustart89]

Amazing today, both on and off the ball.

 

[sullydnl]

Really good.

 

[Who's Kissing Cameras?]

fecking exceptional tonight. His best performance of the season.

 

[Rozay]

Yes.

 

[DWelbz19]

Save this game as a reference point when people will purport he can’t duel win and handle the hustle and bustle in midfield

 

[Zoo]

Class today. Essential we find a good partner for him this summer

 

[Yagami]

So, yeah, this is why we missed him against Leeds.

 

[Chip]

So important today. England Kobbie getting ready for the World Cup?

Levels above Ugarte.

 

[lean]

his best game so far? He was massive today!

 

[Heinzesight]

Smooth fecker.

 

[Oranges038]

Fantastic, Oliver the prick booking him for that dive from Garnacho at the end.

 

[Amira]

Brilliant today. Fought hard too.

 

[pratyush_utd]

To think that fraud almost sold him

What a player

 

[Trigestis]

What a performance, well done Kobbie!

 

[Cathy Ferguson]

his best game so far? He was massive today!

I think so.

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Fecking amazing and I dont care what stats people use to counteract what I said.

 

[Ole'sgunnarwin]

Class player, has a big set of cojones