I agree with you. The problem he faces is that under the current manager that role doesn't exist. I keep posting it but some people seem confused as to what Amorim's system is. The problem for Kobbie is that he has little interest in his skill set, particularly the ball possession through dribbling or carrying the ball. I think also his short passing ability to create triangles is pretty good. Amorim's build up explicitly bypasses the CMs, the main route is for CBs to pass through the lines to 10s, or as we saw a lot on Saturday to go longer to the target man. This makes it hard for us to retain the ball or dominate possession, which is why people ask why we fade so badly. Because we cannot maintain the high press intensity and we lack the players and set up to then control the ball when we get it. If Amorim is here at the season end, which I still doubt, Mainoo will be gone. I also hate the fact why so many on here are so keen to write off players and blame them all the time, especially young talents, who for the past few years have been playing in dysfunctional teams with limited managers.
37
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 18
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 3
- Yellow cards
- 1
Mainoo has plenty to improve upon and his positional sense in and out of possession in a midfield 2 definitely needs to improve. He also needs to be more progressive with his passing, not just as a ball carrier.
That said I think it's very hard for him to do all of that when he's getting barely any minutes and rarely has an opportunity to develop any chemistry in a partnership with Casemiro who is the only other CM in the squad with a skillset that complements him.
If he never gets that opportunity save 15 minutes here and there at the end of a match we're just looking to see our that's not a great opportunity for him or a position to put him in. Additionally he's played most of his minutes this season with Ugarte who has been a car crash regardless of who he's been paired with all season.
It's a tough spot for Mainoo. All he can do for now is work hard in training and try to earn more opportunities in matches, but with Amorim's seeming belief in the Bruno/Cas CM pairing and unwillingness to play Bruno at 10, it will be very difficult for him.
That said I think it's very hard for him to do all of that when he's getting barely any minutes and rarely has an opportunity to develop any chemistry in a partnership with Casemiro who is the only other CM in the squad with a skillset that complements him.
If he never gets that opportunity save 15 minutes here and there at the end of a match we're just looking to see our that's not a great opportunity for him or a position to put him in. Additionally he's played most of his minutes this season with Ugarte who has been a car crash regardless of who he's been paired with all season.
It's a tough spot for Mainoo. All he can do for now is work hard in training and try to earn more opportunities in matches, but with Amorim's seeming belief in the Bruno/Cas CM pairing and unwillingness to play Bruno at 10, it will be very difficult for him.
For England he plays with a unicorn midfielder in Rice and hate to break it to you, but he played in a 2 in a 3-4-3 for one of his best performances against Netherlands.
Sure, but he's not elite at that, so you have to have someone mopping up behind him and someone in front of him (Bellingham in my example above). So really, we have to sign a Rice like player for the 8/6 role and play Bruno as one of the 10s for him to work. I don't really think he's done enough to build the side around, if I'm honest.
If we go to a 4-2-3-1, I think this works - adding say, Baleba, but he's been a weak link in the midfield without that sort of player behind him, which means he doesn't really fit in either formation until that player is signed.
Amad then went to Sunderland and played 30- games as a starter, what you said only makes sense after getting game time elsewhere and I'm that case we should have loaned him
He has limitations, but so do most players. He needs a reliable partner in midfield, a dynamic #6 who can pass it well.
lets not make him our new scapegoat
lets not make him our new scapegoat
. He just needs a midfield partner to do everything for him. Not much to ask!Quite obvious midfield partner for him would be Ederson from Atalanta
All midfielders need a player who compliments the other, Mainoo is a good dribbler and good at short passing it's not much to say the his partner needs to be the worker of the 2, would Lampard been as good without Makelele to do the hard work behind him
I actually would have thought he'd be his replacement. Mainoo needs someone who can cover the space behind him. I do think Baleba would be perfect to play alongside him - he's defensively sound, can bring the ball our from deep positions, covers a lot of ground and pretty sound in possession. Ederson would do a lot of the good things Mainoo does, in my eyes anyway.
Of course, but what's being described there is a world class 6. Most people would be good next to that. We were saying the same with Pogba, but at least with Pobga had very obvious things we would get in return, I don't think it's as obvious with Mainoo.
Interesting to draw the line at Mainoo, when we have had years of limited midfielders doing a feck all job there. Case in point, Manuel fecking Ugarte who we have spunked 60M on, atleast Mainoo is a academy player.
That player needs to be signed regardless, and no midfield really works that well without it. Ugarte next to Mainoo and Bruno. A midfield 3 where you pick any 2 of Ugarte, Mainoo and Casemiro to be joined by Bruno or Mount is definitely the way we should be using our midfield. It's not ideal, because we don't have an ideal group, but it's the best balance we can do in midfield.
In this current system, they're all a bit of a waste of space. So I'm not gonna be too harsh on Mainoo when none of them suit it.
Think you probably did not realise Ederson is as good as a 6 as he is an 8. Maybe even better at 6 either way he is defensively sound and can cover ground. As well as being good on the ball and getting forward. He is a bit like Rice
Ederson 23/24 played as a 6. 24/25 played as an 8
Fair enough, I'll defer to you on that, I've only seen a few games of his to judge. Always saw him more of an 8.
No one is drawing a line at Mainoo, I'm just pointing how people say he's being ruined/wasted, but needs the perfect conditions to play well/be a succees. So does everyone else we berate and say aren't good enough. Mainoo's weaknesses are being overlooked massively here in the hope he'll be a succees from the academy, in my opinion.
Mainoo has incredibly good close control and the ability to turn with the ball, no doubt about that. He is being blooded and 'tested' same as Pep did with Phil Foden, it seemed that he was there for years before becoming a regular starter. For me Mainoo is not showing anything in the 20 minutes or so that he gets each game at the moment that would suggest that he should be a starter.
I think another problem we don't talk about with Mainoo is that he's a slow starter in games, he's not one of those guys that just go full throttle when he's on the pitch. He's the kind of player that grows into the game. For the first 10-15 mins it always feels like he's reacting to the game to get the sense of flow, but once he gets going he's fine. At this moment he's not really suited to be a sub, he's always started even in youth teams so he's adjusting to how a sub should play
He needs to get a loan move in January for his own sake.
I actually want him to get a loan move so I can see how he does.
I actually want him to get a loan move so I can see how he does.
It’s tempring to say he really needs to improve that aspect of his game. Take a leaf out of Ole Gunnar Solskjær’s book and work on his own mentality as a sub. Now he has a golden opportunity.
If we are able to recruit someone in January to replace him, then yes I agree.
I think the press-hyping and general desperation for the next big youth player is combining into an impossible situation with Mainoo. The fact is that there are an incredibly small number of footballers at his age starting in major leagues, an even smaller number of this in central midfield. Historically, it's just not a position suited to youth.
Of course he looks better in systems where there's a compact midfield - all of the midfielders will because not only do they have more defensive support but also more passing options and distractions for opponents to mark. Every striker will look better as part of a 2 up top for the same reasons. But systems make compromises, and Amorim's means that we can't afford Kobbie (or anyone else) the luxury of midfield support.
In the end being a professional athlete at the very top level becomes less about talent (of which he probably is in the top 0.0001%) and more about situation and mentality. The former is a pickle for him no doubt, but the latter is in his control. It looks to me like he's spent hard hours in the gym working on his physical attributes and now it's just about he adjusts - for this season only, hopefully - to limited playing time. The entire squad has the same problem, because they collectively crapped the bed against Tottenham, and then Grimsby.
Used to be that a player his age training with the first team squad would be sufficient to keep them engaged and improving, but nowadays you have a handful of good moments and it's all about playing time so you can get into the England squad.
Of course he looks better in systems where there's a compact midfield - all of the midfielders will because not only do they have more defensive support but also more passing options and distractions for opponents to mark. Every striker will look better as part of a 2 up top for the same reasons. But systems make compromises, and Amorim's means that we can't afford Kobbie (or anyone else) the luxury of midfield support.
In the end being a professional athlete at the very top level becomes less about talent (of which he probably is in the top 0.0001%) and more about situation and mentality. The former is a pickle for him no doubt, but the latter is in his control. It looks to me like he's spent hard hours in the gym working on his physical attributes and now it's just about he adjusts - for this season only, hopefully - to limited playing time. The entire squad has the same problem, because they collectively crapped the bed against Tottenham, and then Grimsby.
Used to be that a player his age training with the first team squad would be sufficient to keep them engaged and improving, but nowadays you have a handful of good moments and it's all about playing time so you can get into the England squad.
A 20 year old who is turning 21 this season, training was never enough. That was always the age they'd be looking for loans if they weren't getting serious game time. At 17/18 sure, just training. 19 you want to start getting game time. 20/21, you need real game time, not pity minutes. Also that varies based on how physically strong a player is. If they're small, it'll take them longer. Mainoo was strong enough to get through early so he's definitely one who should be getting more for his development, so needs a loan to get that.
Carrick from 19 was playing every week, same with keane. Garner was playing every week on loan. He's unlikely to get the minutes that Scholes even got at his age 19/20 season (his first season), and not a chance he gets the minutes Scholes got in his 2nd season at age 21 (similar to what Mainoo was getting last season). This season is absolutely not normal for a player his age, or talent like him
Last edited:
Needs to go on loan. Our current set of central mid options are so poor we don't have any pairing where each players skillsets compliment each other. Casemiro and Mainoo are both slow and can't track runners, we've no options that can do that. Bruno is a mess in central mid, he's all over the place and not in a good way. Ugarte on paper should be better than he has shown, but he's been poor and his passing isn't good enough. Bruno is our captain and Casemiro is our highest paid player. In any other functioning team, players like that are the heartbeat of that team, instead we are already planning on next season without them. We''ve even had fans on here wondering how Maz or Martinez would look in centre mid. Mainoo at this stage needs playing time, he's not going to seemingly get it here. Let him go on loan, he's not the finished article, he's only 20, let him refine his game, because getting 10 mins here or there for us, will not do that for him. If he does well, take him back and hopefully we've injected some energy and proper defensive cover to our midfield, and maybe then we can see him flourish. If he flops, and maybe he's not the player we thought he is, then sell him.
Agreed with those who suggest we let him go out on loan. For me thats the right attitude to have. He's shown more than enough to just be allowed to rot on the bench, he also hasn't asked to be sold just loaned which to me says he still wants to be at the club. The manager has made it clear verbally and through his actions that Kobbie will not get anywhere near the game time that he needs to develop. He'll likely see all the players who left and are now getting game time and doing well and think there's a high chance that if he gets a loan that he can make the England squad.
What he needs to do is improve. When I judge a player I look at the number of things he does well on the pitch. Mainoo can play some nice short passes and is press resistant (but his pass volume are lower than the likes of Casemiro and Bruno before talking about the best at this so it's more flashes than proper impact), he'll tackle well if he's in position, and intercept in the same scenario. But I'm struggling to think of a "CM" who wouldn't be able to play in a two, guys like that are more 10s than true CM and they're way more creative than Mainoo.
I know Amorim isn't the most popular guy right but on this he's right, I hope Mainoo listens for the sake of the player he'll become and try to add that extra tenacity and positional awareness. Currently he plays at a pace too slow for the EPL.
I know Amorim isn't the most popular guy right but on this he's right, I hope Mainoo listens for the sake of the player he'll become and try to add that extra tenacity and positional awareness. Currently he plays at a pace too slow for the EPL.
Yep, his development is being hampered here. We need depth in that position but given his role seems to be playing 5 minutes in place of Bruno occasionally it shouldn't have been that difficult for us to find a replacement on loan in the summer
Really because I am struggling to think of many central midfielders could make amorims two man midfield work. Seems our scouts did too given our midfield links were restricted to baleba.
How on earth will mainoo improve when amorim has said he is fighting with Bruno for a place and Bruno plays every minute?
The problem isn't that Bruno never gets injured or tired. Different situations in games demand tactical flexibility. Our problem, thus far, is that we have one gear and that is to be as direct/vertical as the situation allows it, and completely bypass the midfield when the opposition press becomes too much. And we seem to be adding players who compliment this style. Under these circumstances, even Scholes would struggle to find a place currently in the side. Imagine trying to set up a third man sequence to move the ball up the pitch, and your teammate just hoofs the ball forward. Or a neat one-two on the edge of the box, but the man on the ball just tries (and mostly fails) to beat his marker or crosses the ball aimless into the box (or passes backward). Because... that's what we do. One could argue that we may get there in time, but Mainoo (or whoever) doesn't have to be OK with just waiting for better days.
Thing is, when you don't have an elaborate "plan" (in lack of a better word) to create openings by moving the opposition's defensive shape from side to side, but you rely on endless transitional moments, you don't really need (someone like) Mainoo (who we don't know how good will become anyway, so why waste my time Amorim would think). It's not a criticism of Amorim, either. Mourinho was the same, and he won everything under the sun.
It's also one of the main things that differentiated SAF and set him apart from other "transition" managers. He knew how to pin down opponents in the final third. His sides thrived on verticality and dynamism, but they also had a hundred different ways to carve defences open when that wasn't an option. It's why he could always come up with roles for players with different skills for certain positions. And he was a master of rotation who could keep his players both content and on their toes at the same time. It's a great skill to have as a manager. Otherwise, especially at clubs where managers are treated as deities, you get these discussions. While, not a while ago, Mainoo held the midfield together with freaking Amrabat next to him in an FA Cup final, and scored a goal in what would be (if not for an Onana blunder) our easiest win against Pep's City (in a game where there were high stakes).
Damn.. that’s a good post @TheRedDevil'sAdvocate You just explain our midfield struggle easily (for me).
It makes me think that the midfield profile Amorim’s need is that FSW’s team, with Masch and Alonso. Or Juve’s Pirlo + Davids. Also ironically, young and motivated Pogba would be perfect on Amorim’s, when paired with a mobile defensively monster DM.
Agreed that Mainoo isn’t even Bruno’s replacement, as he isn’t capable of setting up vertical plays. That’s just not his strength. It’s like expecting McTom to be a good DM or playmaking CM. Or Hojlund to play Ibra’s role.
It makes me think that the midfield profile Amorim’s need is that FSW’s team, with Masch and Alonso. Or Juve’s Pirlo + Davids. Also ironically, young and motivated Pogba would be perfect on Amorim’s, when paired with a mobile defensively monster DM.
Agreed that Mainoo isn’t even Bruno’s replacement, as he isn’t capable of setting up vertical plays. That’s just not his strength. It’s like expecting McTom to be a good DM or playmaking CM. Or Hojlund to play Ibra’s role.
Last edited:
Football in the EPL is becoming very vertical. Fabregas called it as way back as 2017 after Kante was preferred by Conte. Even Pep who's religious about elaborate possession play is now leaning towards vertical play. I think the requirements of a midfielder now is leaning towards what is was in the 2000s. It's not like there's no place for what Mainoo would offer, you mentioned SAF being good at utilizing players with varied qualities and being able to pin teams back. SAF achieved this because teams feared his team enough they would sit deep. This United side haven't earned that in the EPL yet. We'll struggle to carry someone with as little ground coverage as Kobbie in the 8 role.
Yoro still plays with the under 21’s for France right?
Kobbie could do the same with England to get his minutes up.
Kobbie could do the same with England to get his minutes up.
I get that, but when you look at it, football in the PL has always been vertical. Even Pep had to adjust after his first season. And most of the best teams in the league still lead the possession charts. We see plenty of the ball, too (7th, i believe), the problem is what you do with the ball. That's when different skill sets come into play. The fear factor is the direct result of quality on the ball. Ferguson's sides knew how to create overloads in the wide areas, and they also knew how to use the centre of the pitch to move the ball from side to side in the attacking third. Carrick/Scholes/Giggs (the 30+ versions of them)/ Anderson and Cleverley had zero verticality and aggression between them. But the gaffer understood that you need different tools for different tasks. Mainoo's (or whoever could be in his place) main problem, right now, isn't that he can't play in a midfield of two, that the 3421 doesn't suit him or that he's not vertical enough. The issue is that he's playing in a system that has little use for what he could potentially bring to the table and, therefore, sees very little use in developing him. So, he's upset. Cunha wants to get on the ball and do his own thing, Mbeumo is direct/aggressive, Bruno/Case like to hit the ball first time, the centre-halves don't step up in possession... I mean, what's he supposed to do? Where does he fit in all of this? In a side that still has plenty of possession and still can't figure out what to do when a transition play isn't on. We see players as one-man solutions, while this is rarely the case. He's not a metronome, he can't dictate play, he'll never be a midfield general etc. All these things might be true, eventually, but, as we speak, we're also a team that puts very little value in those aspects of the game. You can't become all (or any) of these things, if there's zero demand for them from the people who design how the team plays.
@Isotope Cheers. Believe it or not, i had this discussion last weekend and Pogba's name came up along with Rice from the current PL players. But when it comes to this, when you can't string two wins together, you kind of see that there's a problem here.
Yeah agreed Amorim system is a factor, before United hired him I tried checking out some clips of how his team attacked at sporting it's clear he wants the ball going forward as fast as possible. I'm sure privately Amorim knows Mainoo isn't going to work in his system atleast not as a key figure.I Think Amorim would ideally play prime Casemiro and prime Jordan Henderson as his midfield duo if he could make that happen. They'll win duels, cover distance, switch play left to right and free up the wingbacks and front three. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Another thing is even the things Kobbie does well he does them only in flashes, that's something this unstable side can't depend on .
Last edited:
He could but players, rightly or wrongly don't tend to move back down age groups if they once were regular starters for the first team. You could argue the same for why he isn't playing as part of the U23s for us.
There are players who will value playing reserve or u21 internationals more than him. The current situation does United or him any favours.
I agree but lack of tactical flexibility is a given under amorim. A loan would serve two purposes for mainoo - give him game time and allow him to return when we have a new manager who might be more flexible
Liverpool 1:2 Man Utd
Difficult game to come on, but did not impress at all. Seemed lost in his positioning and he looks very slow. Very worrying and far behind Casemiro at the moment
What next for him? He doesn’t seem to have a role in the team. Coming on late in the game like that will always be difficult
I wasn't concentrating on Mainoo but I thought he did most of the conventional off the ball stuff decently. Made some blocks, interceptions and closed the space. Perhaps I was looking with more rose tinted lense though, as pretty much anything resembling a midfielder was going to look much better than what Bruno did in the 2nd half.
If you're viewing him with a 'will he cement his place in a two man midfield?' outlook then I think you should temper your expectations massively. Either Mainoo improves his all around game and athleticism in magnitudes or Amorim coaches/manages the team in a way we've never seen before.
I disgaree with the off the ball setiment. I thought he was often out of position and drifting very much to the right leaving an very open space in midfield.
I do agree he isnt suited for a two-man midfield but i dont think he does the basic very good for a midfielder all around. To be honest im not really sure what role he is very good at anymore.
I thought he was fine. An improvement on the general performance of the player he replaced, to be honest.
Bruno was done after 70 mins and I still felt more comfortable with him in the team than with the thought of an Ugarte/Mainoo midfield which I don't think has been good once
Wasn't that because he was doubling up to help Dalot cover the Kerkez/Gakpo/Wirtz combo? That's what a midfielder will usually do and it's not like they walked through us in the middle. It was mostly from crosses, overlaps and whenever the space was i.e in the channels.
I could be wrong though and I'm not going to watch the last 15 mins again to verify. @MadDogg what does your photographic memory say?