This is just wild, at the rate the hyperbole around Mainoo is growing he'll be Messi and Ronaldo rolled into one by the end of the season.
37
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 18
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 3
- Yellow cards
- 1
This is just wild, at the rate the hyperbole around Mainoo is growing he'll be Messi and Ronaldo rolled into one by the end of the season.
Its causing chaos because he clearly should be getting more minutes than he has this season, especially after refusing to loan him. And no that does not mean he doesn't need to improve or that he needs to be a starter
From the players perspective he has not really done anything wrong
Where would you have him play? The only player he should be replacing as a sub is Casemiro or Bruno instead of Ugarte, that's it. We have not had a lot of convincing wins in the league, and we have often been chasing a goal, so keeping Casemiro or Bruno on when we need a goal makes more sense than subbing Mainoo on.
I agree that if it where the case that we've consistently put in good performances this season -- since we really can and should forget about last season -- without Mainoo then of course it would be foolish to disrupt consistently good performances by shoehorning Mainoo into the starting XI.
But surely it is not controversial to state that we have been consistently poor this season -- we're on 7 wins, 4 draws and 4 losses -- and that the only three wins that we can point back to and say we looked pretty decent are the wins over Sunderland, Brighton and Wolves. Brighton and Sunderland are in 8th and 9th places, so full credit to us for getting those wins over tricky opponents, but Wolves are bound for relegation and even then we only performed admirably for the second half.
And although I don't have the stats handy, we're scoring more than our normal fair share of goals off free kicks and we rarely ever carve open a defense in open play. In fact, I can't think of a single goal all season that one could argue was well worked from the back to the front. Beyond set pieces we've score some goals off high pressing and there have been a few belters such as Amad's goal against Forest. But anything looking like a goal derived directly from wingback play in the 343 setup I would love to be made aware of it.
So no, we don't change the system just to accommodate Mainoo. That would be madness. But the "system" really isn't working. We carry too many defensive players when we need to attack (see Everton) and ask far too much of Bruno in terms of defensive work when he undeniably is much more effective in attack than in defense. And when Bruno does lurch forward we ask too much of Casemiro, whose legs are wobbly and soon to be gone, to be the lone defending midfielder. A third midfielder, make it Mount if Mainoo is now deemed to be shite, would make all the difference in controlling tempo and keeping the press high when we lose possession. For now we play Mount because of injuries, but when Sesko and Cunha and Mbeumo are all fit and available not only is Mainoo surplus to requirements, but so is Mount, so that Amorim can play Dalot and Amad -- neither of whom really are wingbacks, although Amad has been solid in attack this season.
If he was up for sale you think there are a lack of suitors?
No, the crazy take is that Mainoo should be outstanding when he's brought in stoppage time every other match. The crazy take is that the 343 system is actually working, when it clearly is not. The crazy take is that we should rely so heavily on these two midfielders, Bruno and Casemiro, when we have at least two other midfielders (Ugarte has played himself out of a job) midfielders, Mainoo and Mount, who have in the past proven themselves to be highly effective attacking midfielders.
Our attack is predictable and easy to defend. Opposing managers have mentioned how easy we are to defend against. Moyes tore us apart, even though he was down to 10 men.
In defense of those who argue that Mainoo is shite, they're not exactly wrong. Mainoo has been rotting on the bench since Amorim arrived and because of that when he is brought on in the 85th minute or in stoppage time he's nowhere near match fit and he justifies, in one sense, the hate he's received here.
And truth be told, neither Bruno nor Casemiro have been all that fantastic either. Pretty decent, for sure, but no other top club in the PL would have Bruno over Casemiro over the players they already have. The root of the problem is that the 343 doesn't really work for Bruno, Casemiro, Mount or Mainoo, so it's not just a Mainoo problem. Mount looks bright wherever he's deployed, but he's not built for this system either. Bruno certainly isn't. Prime Casemiro would have thrived in it, but Casemiro is no longer in his prime.
We may scrape 6th place, which is a vast improvement over 15th, but we're not putting in consistently solid performances with this system, which none of Mainoo, Mount, Bruno or Casemiro are suited for. Although this thread is about Mainoo and whether, at this point at least we should get rid of him, the larger problem is the tactical set up that opposing managers in the PL easily cope with and more often than not take points off us.
If Ruben had more than one formation in him, he could use Mainoo to change the shape of the team and so the overall tactics when needed. Either at the start or half way. By adjusting the shape midway you probably get the most out of him whilst leaving Bruno on, and give the opposition a headache to deal with. Sticking to one shape only makes it difficult to use Mainoo in the best way. But he doesn’t need to just use one shape!
Exactly what you said on instead of Ugarte which would have given him alot more minutes.
This whole thing reminds me of when a significant cohort of posters were arguing day and night that ETH was right not to play Amad because we had Garnacho and Rashford (never mind the fact that they were both playing like shit the entire season), some even going as far as to say that ETH was right to give Forson chances ahead of him. Those posters look like idiots now, I have a feeling Kobbie will make another round of posters look like idiots in the nearish future.
I think this makes sense. But it’s likely going to be Mainoo for Amad…because despite all the talk about a back 3, Amorim’s preferred starting 11 features 4 defenders, 3 midfielders (including Amad) and 3 forwards.
Like you say it’ll give the opposition a different look.
I agree with this. And I think, part of it is also comparing him to our midfield options and not the ones of our rivals. I think, he just stood out a lot when compared to McTominay, Fred, even Casemiro, Ugarte and Bruno who have their strength in very different areas but none of them in the area of press resistence. If you compare him with them, he comes up fairly well, but as you say - he doesn't play against his team mates but other teams in the league and there he is just as many others, a player with strengths and weaknesses making more or less suitable for certain roles.
I don't agree with your overall point here but I can see where you are coming from. My issue with that quote is that system discussions and thoughts shouldn't creep into player performance threads. And not "shouldn't" in the sense of nobody should do it but in the sense of "lets look at a players level but with take his potential level in a wished-for-system that isn't on the horizon taken into consideration".
Again, I can see why you are upset with "the system". But I don't think, it should be discussed in a thread about Kobbie Mainoo. And for the record - I don't think anybody expects him to be outstanding - the issue pointed out about him is his limited range of passing and his lack of intensity. Thats not superhuman traits, thats to a degree is bread-and-butter of a PL midfielder.
Hyperbole. We couldn't break them down, I haven't seen any tearing apart in that game.
Stop with the hate stuff honestly. Because the obvious response is that there is also some crazy-in-love situation going on. Do you want to be named a fanboy? So lets not stupidify standpoints like that.
I am not a fan of a Bruno and Casemiro midfield either. But if the plan for this season is to forfeit midfield control and just play over it and try to win 2nd balls, then you need players there who are ready to hit those long balls. Thats the reason Bruno and Casemiro play even when they have the issues you named.
Lets discuss the tactical setup then, more than enough people already doing it. But lets not do it in the Mainoo thread.
This comparison is quite often made but it's not really accurate. ETH didn't even want to give Amad a chance, but when he finally did Amad took those chances and was comfortably outperforming the players he was competing with. Despite that, ETH was eager to drop him the instant his performances dropped a bit, despite the players he bought in being no better (if not worse).
Amorim gave Mainoo far more gametime last season than Amad ever got. In fact I'd say it was almost the exact opposite, where Amorim gave him plenty of gametime over multiple different positions to try to find some way to get him performing in the team. Mainoo started 13 of the last 17 PL games he was available for last season (and one of the ones he didn't start he was returning from an injury). Quite frankly, Mainoo never took those chances. Hell, he was quite poor in the earlier part of the season under ETH so it's not like it was just under Amorim that his performances dropped. This season the gametime has dried up a lot, but once again he hasn't performed in those games in a way to force himself into the managers starting lineup.
Don't get me wrong, I think Mainoo should have played more than he has this season. Especially off the bench. But in his case he has to take a significant amount of the blame for it himself, whereas in regards to Amad he basically did everything he could and it was 100% on ETH.
There will be suitors, he'll look much better in a less physical league, and it's possible there will be PL clubs ready to take a gamble, like with Garnacho. As with Garnacho, the fee we get for him will be below the valuation of many posters on here, particularly with his reportedly ridiculous wage demands.
I largely agree with you, it's not quite a like for like situation and I don't even blame Amorim for not playing him so much this season. What I'm arguing against is this revisionist notion that Kobbie isn't an elite talent, he is. He's still only 20 years old, consistency is almost always a problem for young players, we need to give him time, possibly by sending him out on loan in January.
I really appreciate your thoughtful replies to each point.
What I witnessed when Mainoo broke out was remarkable, maybe outstanding. But it could be argued that excelling for United at that time was no great feat; but we can't easily dismiss Mainoo's excellence for England, which came agonizing close to winning the Euros but losing to a very good Spain side.
At the very least, surely there must be agreement that Mainoo was exceptional in his debut season. But if the consensus is that he was actually nothing more than average, at best a promising young player, then of course he must wait his turn even if it means waiting for years.
But if we concede that Mainoo was outstanding for United and England, which I realize some contest here, it makes at least intuitive sense me to give him more chances to perform than he's been given so far under Amorim. Not a regular starter, as there are two problems with doing so -- Bruno is the undisputed first choice in the role Mainoo would serve in the 343 system; and you don't necessarily want to push a young player too hard, too fast.
And although I appreciate the desire not to discuss the 343 system when discussing Mainoo, the 343 system is what is keeping Mainoo off the pitch match after match. We all understand this. And for those who argue otherwise on the ground that Mainoo, shall we say, has regressed in his development, they are not wrong. Kobbie has regressed, but why? Isn't it pretty obvious that by not fitting into the tactics the manager insists upon, and that by virtue of these tactics that Mainoo will always be behind Bruno and will rarely ever play, that he will regress? I haven't tallied up Mainoo's minutes in the PL this season but surely it can't be even 100. But whatever it is, it's a really small number.
If the tactics were working and we were purring along past clubs like Everton there wouldn't be much to discuss. But in fact we're struggled to perform well consistently all season, with only a few performances making us look like a top four contender.
Whatever one's views of Mainoo as a footballer, it's obvious he has no place in the starting XI under Amorim. If Amorim stays for another season we should just cash in on Mainoo and use the proceeds to strengthen the squad in the manner Amorim sees fit.
There were at least 5 or 6 denials from Mainoo camp that he doesn't ask such wages. Didn't heard it or you think it is not important? Now, tell me who benefits from wage story being out.. you in support of manager and anyone who will then turn their back on his sale easier.
Mainoo was in shop since Amorim came. That is not a fact but how it looked. And at the time first roumors everyone jumped in disbelief. Now year later he is shit and never such a talent..
"What is the cost of lies? It's not that we will mistake them for the truth. The real danger is that, if we hear enough lies, then we no longer recognize the truth at all."
That is what happened here. Mainoo is a brilliant talent, at that age in such shit set up you could see the kid is quite something.
And that pisses me off. He might not become world class, it is hard, but why do we dump on him?
Feck it, forget it.. what is the cost of Mainoo?
Or ask even more important question. Why do we not value what Mainoo can bring? Or question the system in which Ugarte can be more valuable. Am done, off to a beer.
I think whether or not Mainoo was “outstanding” in his breakthrough depends very much on the definition used. He definitely stood out as one of the better performing midfielders for United and England. But I’d argue that says more about ETH’s and Southgate’s catastrophic inability to assemble a functioning engine room in their respective teams than it does about Mainoo’s quality.
When all is said and done, he has serious deficiencies in his athleticism and passing. You’re can’t be a “generational talent” in midfield (as he’s been described in this thread) if you can’t run OR pass at top level. You might be able to get away with being average in one of those areas, but not two.
He’s made 60 appearances for United and only truly excelled in a handful of them. Which is to be expected of 20 year. Mainoo isn’t actually behind schedule. His development hasn’t been fumbled nearly as much as this thread would have you believe. United only play one game a week and so only need to rotate for injuries. Bruno and Casemiro and significantly better players than Mainoo (despite being past their peak) and their availability has excellent this season. However, had you loaned Mainoo out your squad would have been light. So he’s been forced to fight for his place. What’s wrong with that?
If Mainoo wasn’t a local, academy player and was instead a Belgian trying to break into the Bournemouth team, how many here would be excited about buying him? I’m guessing very few. Whereas actual generational talents like Rooney or Fabregas have top teams breaking the door down to sign them.
Mainoo is following an entirely conventional career path and the only thing that makes it seem otherwise is how overhyped he’s become.
Which games? I remember at least 3 on which we look collectively as the worst team in the league (Sunderland, Newcastle first half and Brighton all at home). Like gemuinely rock bottom. No one knew where to be or what to do. That is chances he has been given.
I will give you a clue. Top midfield is easy to set up. Controller, b2b and "needle" breaking the line player (Mainoo).. You sure as feck won't build anything with Bruno at 6 and 40 year old Casemiro. And we aint competing for shit also.
"Outstanding" is used in two difference contexts -- one for his age and another for his impact on the sides he was playing for. Mainoo has never been prime Zidane or Iniesta so he's not outstanding in that context but in terms of his actual impact, yeah, he was outstanding.
Was...is is another matter. For those who say look at him now, they make a fair point. Observers like me can explain away his mediocrity now on the ground that this is what happens when one rots on the bench...they rot.
Given the high likelihood that Amorim will hang on as manager for another season it's pretty clear to me that Mainoo has no future at Old Trafford. For those who believe, as you do, that Mainoo is overhyped we might as well get rid of him in January. And for those who saw what we all saw before Amorim was brought in, we might as well get get rid of him as he has clearly, at least as we see it, has earned the right more than garbage time.
The thing is, if you think (as I do) that some United may fans have overhyped one of their youngsters a bit (which all fanbases do from time to time) then there is a third option. Mainoo actually fights for his place the way any 20 year old should be expected to if they want to play for one of the biggest clubs in the world.
He's 20, if we're not going to use him, which we're clearly not, just send him out on loan to a team where he'll get minutes.
The constant questions about him are tiresome.
The constant questions about him are tiresome.
Exactly. Mainoo is not playing well because he rots on the bench, put there by a manager who has no achievements to speak of, who suddenly decided the kid is in direct competition with the captain of the team who is never injured and an established international. Nobody was looking at Mainoo vs Bruno competition, until Amorim put that in everyone's head. Now people are making that as some kind of truth or a baseline and then arguing Bruno is better than Mainoo, hence rotting on the bench.
What is gonna happen next is so predictable. Mainoo will get frustrated and understand that he needs to get out asap for his development. So he tries to get out somehow and have arguments or difference of opinion with Amorim. The manager will come out and throw the player under the bus in public, and talk about kids not having the right attitude. Our internet fanbase will pile on and claim Mainoo was always some kind of attitude problem and kids with attitude need to be thrown out to save every other kid from getting influenced.
Don't forget the 180k a week too.
If he is adamant over 180k, and club thinks that looks like a ransom, then the club could have taken a decision and moved him on, when his stock was high.Don't forget the 180k a week too.
There is no need to do this Mainoo vs Bruno thing
Just another shit move by Amorim. Being told you're in direct competition with someone that is never injured, is captain and is always played no matter how shite he performs isn't going to fill you with confidence that you're going to get your fair share of opportunities is it.
And I don't care what anyone says about that laugh by Amorim in that interview it is not a good look at all.
I agree with what you said about the money, that's why I think it's nonsense. Under this new structure there's no way he's getting that much so as you said, they would have moved him on.
Absolutely. He just created an impossible situation for Mainoo and tries to pass that off as some kind of sound logic. His statements about Mainoo, Amass and Chido Obi are frankly petty and terrible people management. Jose at least had credentials to be petty. He has none.
It's madness that academy players are being expected to be given a starting spot instead of having to make them earn their spot on merit like how Sir Alex used to make them do.
Saying that Mainoo gets little playing time is one thing, but the fact is that even in his limited playing time, he looks unbothered. He's 20 and playing on limited minutes, he should be busting his guts out to prove a point defensively but we see him on most weeks strolling about like he's in a friendly.
We've seen more new pieces about how highly sought after he is this week than he has put in effort all season.
Saying that Mainoo gets little playing time is one thing, but the fact is that even in his limited playing time, he looks unbothered. He's 20 and playing on limited minutes, he should be busting his guts out to prove a point defensively but we see him on most weeks strolling about like he's in a friendly.
We've seen more new pieces about how highly sought after he is this week than he has put in effort all season.
I understand the frustration among those who want the focus of conversation to be on performances on the pitch, not what they regard as a noise over squad player, even if home grown. And we're only a few weeks away from the transfer window, so let's just see what happens. I get that, but I also get that from time to time we play lower table clubs like Wolves and from time to time we have fixtures piled on top of each other with only a few days of rest.
Bruno is clearly superior to Mainoo but he is not indestructible. In years past we've seen him break down near the end of the season, as any human would. We really should pace the brilliant 31 year old a bit more carefully to ensure that he's completely fit for us during the run in as we fight for a CL spot. The recent match against Wolves, undeniably destined for relegation, would have been a great occasion for Mainoo to get the start over Bruno (assuming Amorim hasn't already planned on getting rid of him) to not only give Bruno a fully deserved rest, but also to give Mainoo a chance to prove himself -- admittedly, against a woebegone club but so what?
I disagree with the statement in bold, as it was obvious from the start of Amorim's tenure that the 343 would by definition mean Mainoo gets frozen out. We just didn't know how bad the freezing would be. Bruno is captain and the superior player, so fair play to Amorim that Bruno gets starts over Mainoo, and Mainoo is not a holding midfielder and he doesn't seem built for a box to box midfielder so he loses out to Casemiro. But the lack of rotation when it is completely warranted -- such as against Wolves -- really is the death warrant for Mainoo as long as Amorim is manager. If INEOS have already ruled out replacing Amorim this summer, they should sell Mainoo as soon as possible in January (unfortunately, his value has plummeted due to bench rot) and use the proceeds to bring in a LWB (if one actually exists) during January and see where we can go with an actual starting XI instead of a starting X plus Dalot. Holding on to Mainoo just to rot on the bench would be pointless and counterproductive.
Man Utd 4:4 Bournemouth
New
Refreshing to see a midfielder with some actual calmness.
His one-touch passing was very good.
His one-touch passing was very good.
Thought he was good when he came on, his ability in tight spaces is still impressive.
Thought he was excellent with the ball and not great off of it. Should start against Villa with Cas out.
Better than he's been in recent appearances. Looked good on the ball but he's absolutely awful off the ball. Another player we want to play in CM, who's actually a AM/10, much like Bruno.
Borderline excellent tonight. But given the situation he's in he'll never progress under Amorim.
As a famous Greek philosopher once put it, it is what it is.
As a famous Greek philosopher once put it, it is what it is.
Sadly.
We desperately need him in starting eleven
Agree I wonder who's gonna start on that RAM position. I'd like Bruno to do it because he can create so many opportunities and he gets pushed off too easily. Even in this game Cunha dropped off while Bruno stayed up at the end.
Mainoo should really have a couple of games during AFCON but we'll see
He's not a CM, he can't protect the defence and he can't read the game. For Kroupis goal, he runs miles out of position to win a ball he's never going to win and left a gaping hole. Semenyo just jogged passed him as well.
The only way he makes it here is replacing Bruno and we sign a player like Baleba to cover his obvious deficiencies.
The only way he makes it here is replacing Bruno and we sign a player like Baleba to cover his obvious deficiencies.
Controversial opinion
His best game this season but after we went back to 4-4 he disappeared and also didnt exert much control of the midfield when we went 4-3 up either
He was brilliant on the ball when we were all out attack but after we went up i dont think he tried to slow things down.
More promising signs for me but not excellent as some have said, maybe at fault for the last goal with positioning
His best game this season but after we went back to 4-4 he disappeared and also didnt exert much control of the midfield when we went 4-3 up either
He was brilliant on the ball when we were all out attack but after we went up i dont think he tried to slow things down.
More promising signs for me but not excellent as some have said, maybe at fault for the last goal with positioning
He has to. And hopefully, the manager will figure something out to instill a bit of fire into him. He was alright today and for not playing so much, I wouldn't criticize it. But you always get the feeling that he doesn't really go into the highest gear, that he leaves something in the tank. Our midfield options are so poor all together... every combination opens another door of pain.