[tomaldinho1]

I think people are misinterpreting Casemiro situation in regards to Mainoo performance.

It was clearly 'all attack' from Fulham once Casemiro went off. We were getting outrun, tactical changes were required and a bit more calm head would open nice counterattacks for us.

If it's Mainoo - Ugarte from the start, the game doesn't look like the last 20 minutes. And it's not about Casemiro vs Ugarte comparison, just the context of ultra offensive tactics from Fulham when Case went off.

I think more so Carrick got the subs a bit wrong. Once Cunha came off and Sesko went central Fulham almost had no pressure on their build up. I’m pleased for Sesko scoring but maybe he needs to really hound down the ball more if he’s coming on late.

It’s funny how people watch football as well. Case had a great game but Mainoo literally outperformed him in almost every possible metric offensively and defensively (aside from the key and most memorable ones of scoring and assisting of course). If you go on sofa score for this specific game and compare them it’s genuinely incredible how much work Mainoo got through on and off the ball.

 

[HankHill]

I was quite surprised by the way he was pinging long passes around today.

Pleasantly surprised.

 

[Skills]

Loves a tackle doesn't he

 

[Borys]

I think more so Carrick got the subs a bit wrong. Once Cunha came off and Sesko went central Fulham almost had no pressure on their build up. I’m pleased for Sesko scoring but maybe he needs to really hound down the ball more if he’s coming on late.

It’s funny how people watch football as well. Case had a great game but Mainoo literally outperformed him in almost every possible metric offensively and defensively (aside from the key and most memorable ones of scoring and assisting of course). If you go on sofa score for this specific game and compare them it’s genuinely incredible how much work Mainoo got through on and off the ball.

Well the last two pages are all praise for Mainoo. Obviously people will look though the results lens (we win - everyone gets better review), but overall we gave away a lot of midfield today to Fulham and I doubt that was by design. I don't think Mainoo is at fault here but I do believe the setup was not tight enough for Fulham today.
As for Mainoo himself, he's doing a good job in midfield without being very influential at the moment. No complaints since we are scoring goals, defensively obviously some concerns. I do see more of a midfielder in Mainoo now compared to how I saw his profile last 2 seasons though, what is a big positive.

 

[Grande]

Thought he was brilliant. Carricks set up with our midfielders associating more closely is ideal for him and makes our build up truly brilliant at times. Played some great balls over the top as well and won almost all of his duels.

Fulham playing through us was a structural thing more than anything. They are excellent at doing so anyways and we are slightly limited with Maguire/Martinez/Casemiro/Mainoo all being good players but not elite athletes. Though our backline was too dropped off on the press at times.

Oh well. That’s a really tough fixture and we still managed the majority of the game and came away with 3 points

I agree with this in the main. Fulham pushed us back from the start of second half, and we were on shaky ground a few times before Casemiro went off as well. Fulham is a good team in very good form tbf.

I felt we were still more vulnerable towards the end, and I think it had to do with several players slipping up on the structural focus. Ugarte comes in with too much to prove, and goes pressing so much that he leaves the structure exposed. More seasoned players would adapt and compensate a bit more, but Mainoo and Amad rather doubled up with the same kind of mistakes, Dalot will never learn and Bruno is Bruno. In the end it left Maguire paralysed for three occasions, Shaw insecure, and Martinez the only one who actually kept being compeimentary And active the whole way.

I think your point about the backbone lacking in tempo is very apt, and also adds to the explanation for why this team will probably always have a glass jaw when pressing at different heights. When press and marking is perfect, it’s all right, but noone is perfect all game, and when first one or to start to slip, we are not equipped to snuff out the gaps that appear, porobably regardless of who is coach.

 

[Xeque_279]

Pinging the ball around today, nice to see him expressing that side of him and that one crunching slide tackle was beautiful to see.

Can see the confidence Carrick has instilled in him. Hope he keeps building on this.

 

[Kostov]

Absolute gem and only 20. Amorim needs to be ashamed of himself and hopefully never gets to manage a young talented midfielder.

 

[whitbyviking]

Since he isn’t particularly quick, and probably never will be, should he be looking to bulk up a bit and just become a wall in there. He just lacks that little bit physically, although today he wasn’t shirking anything in there.

 

[Borys]

I agree with this in the main. Fulham pushed us back from the start of second half, and we were on shaky ground a few times before Casemiro went off as well. Fulham is a good team in very good form tbf.

I felt we were still more vulnerable towards the end, and I think it had to do with several players slipping up on the structural focus. Ugarte comes in with too much to prove, and goes pressing so much that he leaves the structure exposed. More seasoned players would adapt and compensate a bit more, but Mainoo and Amad rather doubled up with the same kind of mistakes, Dalot will never learn and Bruno is Bruno. In the end it left Maguire paralysed for three occasions, Shaw insecure, and Martinez the only one who actually kept being compeimentary And active the whole way.

I think your point about the backbone lacking in tempo is very apt, and also adds to the explanation for why this team will probably always have a glass jaw when pressing at different heights. When press and marking is perfect, it’s all right, but noone is perfect all game, and when first one or to start to slip, we are not equipped to snuff out the gaps that appear, porobably regardless of who is coach.

Bruno was playing much more like 3rd midfielder previous 2 games, so it looked like a tactical change to move him higher up. I think this + Cunha in a bit more of a free roaming role made the midfield quite stretched and Fulham overloaded that area, what exposed Casemiro and Mainoo a bit as both were chasing shadows. The opposition found it way too easy to progress the ball to final 3rd. Carrick needs to work on that.

 

[ti vu]

Well the last two pages are all praise for Mainoo. Obviously people will look though the results lens (we win - everyone gets better review), but overall we gave away a lot of midfield today to Fulham and I doubt that was by design. I don't think Mainoo is at fault here but I do believe the setup was not tight enough for Fulham today.
As for Mainoo himself, he's doing a good job in midfield without being very influential at the moment. No complaints since we are scoring goals, defensively obviously some concerns. I do see more of a midfielder in Mainoo now compared to how I saw his profile last 2 seasons though, what is a big positive.

Thought he was brilliant. Carricks set up with our midfielders associating more closely is ideal for him and makes our build up truly brilliant at times. Played some great balls over the top as well and won almost all of his duels.

Fulham playing through us was a structural thing more than anything. They are excellent at doing so anyways and we are slightly limited with Maguire/Martinez/Casemiro/Mainoo all being good players but not elite athletes. Though our backline was too dropped off on the press at times.

Oh well. That’s a really tough fixture and we still managed the majority of the game and came away with 3 points

It is a personnel issue which highly influences how close we can control the game in whatever philosophy system we decide to go in long term.

We don’t have the players for high press even if you change Mainoo for another player. Maguire and Martinez lack of pace can’t simply cover by different structure. Maguire instinct is always back tracking first thus stretching space between the line for Fulham. It is not something that can’t be coached out of him. In ETH first season, it’s very clear how ETH demanded his high defensive line and a Aguirre kept failing. ETH adjusting his structure in his second second forward only makes thing worse as we know opening even wider gap in midfield by having the defensive line deeper with Maguire, Evans getting more game time during the injury crisis.

Defending deep is also not something these players are capable of perfect performance. Having numbers back doesn’t mean defending well. The 2-2 goal showed. Amad went to sleep failing to track Kevin give and go to receive a pass back. It’s not mere lack of coaching or workrate, but lack of defensive instinct from Amad despite him playing wing back fairly often under Amorim.

With the imperfect group of players, there is a limit on how strict you can marry to a system. For example the balance between Maguire profile and Martinez’s is bad. Bruno for all his creative prowess would demand elite level of athleticism and defensive nous from the double pivot.

 

[Borys]

It is a personnel issue which highly influences how close we can control the game in whatever philosophy system we decide to go in long term.

We don’t have the players for high press even if you change Mainoo for another player. Maguire and Martinez lack of pace can’t simply cover by different structure. Maguire instinct is always back tracking first thus stretching space between the line for Fulham. It is not something that can’t be coached out of him. In ETH first season, it’s very clear how ETH demanded his high defensive line and a Aguirre kept failing. ETH adjusting his structure in his second second forward only makes thing worse as we know opening even wider gap in midfield by having the defensive line deeper with Maguire, Evans getting more game time during the injury crisis.

Defending deep is also not something these players are capable of perfect performance. Having numbers back doesn’t mean defending well. The 2-2 goal showed. Amad went to sleep failing to track Kevin give and go to receive a pass back. It’s not mere lack of coaching or workrate, but lack of defensive instinct from Amad despite him playing wing back fairly often under Amorim.

With the imperfect group of players, there is a limit on how strict you can marry to a system. For example the balance between Maguire profile and Martinez’s is bad. Bruno for all his creative prowess would demand elite level of athleticism and defensive nous from the double pivot.

I don't necessarily believe backline is such a problem. The issue wasn't even high press, it was no press when in midblock and Fulham was able to progress the ball without much hassle to the final third. We did well in deep defence but we can't allow that much time on the ball for the players around the box, this has been a recurring issue.

Considering we have Casemiro and Mainoo now*, we can pull this off only if we have industrial wingers (Amad and Dorgu, or a bit more disciplined Cunha), Bruno working his ass off and CF pressing as well (so far I have not seen this from Sesko). We can definitely do better than against Fulham, although lack of squad depth is really showing now.

*btw we saw the same issues with Eriksen in midfield. Doing alright but too easy to play/run through as not compact enough.

 

[flameinthesun]

Was in the stadium and the 2 players who immediately stand out are Kobbie and Amad. For me Kobbie had a very good game, noticeable drop off when Casemiro went off, which I attribute more to Ugarte coming on...

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Has anyone mentioned the tackle he made in the first half where he absolutely smashed one of their players? Tackles like that are rare enough but make such a big difference to the whole atmosphere and attitude, when we’re playing at home. And not what you expect from a player mainly known for being good on the ball. Great to see.

 

[Ágætis Byrjun]

Stockport Iniesta

 

[Keanes Magic Hat]

Loves a tackle doesn't he

His battling qualities were brilliant, hes going to be so good with time and games

 

[Grande]

Bruno was playing much more like 3rd midfielder previous 2 games, so it looked like a tactical change to move him higher up. I think this + Cunha in a bit more of a free roaming role made the midfield quite stretched and Fulham overloaded that area, what exposed Casemiro and Mainoo a bit as both were chasing shadows. The opposition found it way too easy to progress the ball to final 3rd. Carrick needs to work on that.

Yes, I also noticed that about Bruno’s position, thiugh I seem to remember us defending in 4-4-2 both the other games, so I took it more as Bruno being speculative as opposed to careful and disciplined.

Both Bruno and Cunha puts in a good defensive shift, but neither has good instincts when it comes to defending, and both struggle with adhereing to discipline. Bruno is aware of the team positions, but his typical mistake will be to press to high. When it’s not really on. That demands a lot from the midfield and defence when assessing when to push up and when to hold form. Maguire for one will tend to be cautious which stretches the the team, and suddenly it can make a huge difference wether there is an exoerienced leader like Casemiro deciding to stay back and keep lower blick intact, or two pivote where none have that tactical awareness/understanding/discipline.

So I agree Carrick has to work on it, but I also think there are limitations to what anyone can do with those player types in 15 games, or even a year. Top 4 is possible, but also would be impressive IMO.

 

[Nyland]

He kept things simple and kept things ticking along. It's nice to see that performance get praise in an era where unless you get a goal or an assist (or a "goal involvement" - whatever one of those are) a big chunk of fans will refuse to acknowledge anything. Certain parts of the internet and maybe even fan base need to move beyond basing 95% of their opinion on one or two headline stats and actually get back to watching how someone plays and admiring (or criticising) based on that.

Appreciating a display as good as Mainoo's was yesterday is becoming a lost art in todays world

 

[PeteManic]

any news of a contract?

 

[giggs-beckham]

Wasn't down to him or Case. Bruno was too far up front.

This is the problem with 4231 with Bruno at 10

 

[Gordon'sHill]

Yes, I also noticed that about Bruno’s position, thiugh I seem to remember us defending in 4-4-2 both the other games, so I took it more as Bruno being speculative as opposed to careful and disciplined.

Both Bruno and Cunha puts in a good defensive shift, but neither has good instincts when it comes to defending, and both struggle with adhereing to discipline. Bruno is aware of the team positions, but his typical mistake will be to press to high. When it’s not really on. That demands a lot from the midfield and defence when assessing when to push up and when to hold form. Maguire for one will tend to be cautious which stretches the the team, and suddenly it can make a huge difference wether there is an exoerienced leader like Casemiro deciding to stay back and keep lower blick intact, or two pivote where none have that tactical awareness/understanding/discipline.

So I agree Carrick has to work on it, but I also think there are limitations to what anyone can do with those player types in 15 games, or even a year. Top 4 is possible, but also would be impressive IMO.

Was Bruno really higher up yesterday compared to say the arsenal game? A lot of the analysis after the Arsenal game showed how high Mbeumo and Bruno were pressing the Arsenal CBs when they were in possession. That in part was the source of our first goal in the match. I think the big issue yesterday was on the left were Cunha drifted a lot and we didnt have the coverage up and down the flank that Dorgu provides.

 

[Pronewbie]

He has potential but we shouldn't be building our midfield assuming he'll be a guaranteed starter.

For a team that aims to compete reguarly in the CL, he is at best a good squad rotation option playing 20+ games a season. If he can't accept such a role then we should part ways. Unless he excels throughout the season.

 

[lex talionis]

Well the last two pages are all praise for Mainoo. Obviously people will look though the results lens (we win - everyone gets better review), but overall we gave away a lot of midfield today to Fulham and I doubt that was by design. I don't think Mainoo is at fault here but I do believe the setup was not tight enough for Fulham today.
As for Mainoo himself, he's doing a good job in midfield without being very influential at the moment. No complaints since we are scoring goals, defensively obviously some concerns. I do see more of a midfielder in Mainoo now compared to how I saw his profile last 2 seasons though, what is a big positive.

It was by design, especially in the second half when we were protecting a 2-0 lead.

To be fair to our defending, we gave up a pen on a play when Lammens had the situation under control and we conceded a wordlie from the top of the box. That’s it. Two goals, of course, but Fulham were otherwise hardly bothering Lammens, who otherwise only had to make one difficult save.

We’re giving up possession by design. These were three clubs that deserved our respect. We’re nowhere yet near being at the place where we can grind down anyone we wish with possession and intricate passing in the final third against parked buses. Fulham went home rightfully believing they let one get away, but in fairness their two goals resulted from a fortunate pk and top drawer long distance shot, whereas when we went forward, we asked more questions of their back line and keeper.

 

[Valencia Shin Crosses]

I agree with this in the main. Fulham pushed us back from the start of second half, and we were on shaky ground a few times before Casemiro went off as well. Fulham is a good team in very good form tbf.

I felt we were still more vulnerable towards the end, and I think it had to do with several players slipping up on the structural focus. Ugarte comes in with too much to prove, and goes pressing so much that he leaves the structure exposed. More seasoned players would adapt and compensate a bit more, but Mainoo and Amad rather doubled up with the same kind of mistakes, Dalot will never learn and Bruno is Bruno. In the end it left Maguire paralysed for three occasions, Shaw insecure, and Martinez the only one who actually kept being compeimentary And active the whole way.

I think your point about the backbone lacking in tempo is very apt, and also adds to the explanation for why this team will probably always have a glass jaw when pressing at different heights. When press and marking is perfect, it’s all right, but noone is perfect all game, and when first one or to start to slip, we are not equipped to snuff out the gaps that appear, porobably regardless of who is coach.

Yeah, ideally in the future it's a matured Heaven/Yoro partnership behind the midfield (or something similar where it's two top athletic CB's) and we get a groundeater next to Mainoo. Think that will solve a lot of problems defensively. Any high pressing team in the world is going to struggle if they don't have players with the tools to recover when they are actually played through. Just watch how often Saliba/Gabriel bail out Arsenal or when VVD and co would do so for Klopp during their prime years. It's a necessity.

 

[IncyWincySpider]

He has potential but we shouldn't be building our midfield assuming he'll be a guaranteed starter.

For a team that aims to compete reguarly in the CL, he is at best a good squad rotation option playing 20+ games a season. If he can't accept such a role then we should part ways. Unless he excels throughout the season.

 

[Grande]

Yeah, ideally in the future it's a matured Heaven/Yoro partnership behind the midfield (or something similar where it's two top athletic CB's) and we get a groundeater next to Mainoo. Think that will solve a lot of problems defensively. Any high pressing team in the world is going to struggle if they don't have players with the tools to recover when they are actually played through. Just watch how often Saliba/Gabriel bail out Arsenal or when VVD and co would do so for Klopp during their prime years. It's a necessity.

Yes, Yoro and Heaven have the tools for that kind of football. They are very young as CB go, so they lack the experience to understand and discern the needs of a particular tactical situation to be tqcticqlly sound in all kinds of games. If Saliba, Gabriel and Van Dijk is anything to go by, that will not be in another two to five years.

In the mean time we will have to develop within those limitations, and temper our expectations. In midfield, we can take it as a given we will invest this summer, and I think @Adnan is the one here who have presented the most convincing arguments for what we need in that regard.

Kobbie Mainoo as he has played under Carrick, is good enough for me today to play at the highest level alongside an experienced defensive midfielder with a good burst and range of movement, a good sense of positioning needs and an ability to play through lines and control tempo. A mixture of Carrick and Baleba maybe. I don’t think that player exists at this point, so I think a midfield two with Mainoo is also a few seasons off being at title contender level. But maybe good enough for where we are now, fighting among the second level teams, fighting for top 4 and punching above weight from time to time.

I think this has always seemed the time scope Ratcliffe aimed for, which is why it made little sense to me to fire Amorim on the basis of results and performances alone, as they were actually showing the progress and level of where we should be in such a process. But of course, if he didn’t make the right choices behind the scene, alienated the squad or the rest of the club, he’d have to go regardless. But I think anybody expecting us to be as consitent as Arsenal and City even at this point, are not realistic in terms of the players we have aquired.

 

[Borys]

It was by design, especially in the second half when we were protecting a 2-0 lead.

To be fair to our defending, we gave up a pen on a play when Lammens had the situation under control and we conceded a wordlie from the top of the box. That’s it. Two goals, of course, but Fulham were otherwise hardly bothering Lammens, who otherwise only had to make one difficult save.

We’re giving up possession by design. These were three clubs that deserved our respect. We’re nowhere yet near being at the place where we can grind down anyone we wish with possession and intricate passing in the final third against parked buses. Fulham went home rightfully believing they let one get away, but in fairness their two goals resulted from a fortunate pk and top drawer long distance shot, whereas when we went forward, we asked more questions of their back line and keeper.

Yeah this might be the case. There is however a sweet spot between giving a team a lot of space (like we did yesterday) and "grinding down anyone we wish with possession and intricate passing in the final third against parked buses". And it's not even about possession for the sake of it, I just felt we were a bit poor trying to chase the ball in midfield. I also think we've been much better in that regard, even impressive I'd say against City and Arsenal, but in Fulham game we almost invited them to put pressure on us. Maybe this was a one off, maybe this was because of tactics (for example Cunha in more free role, Bruno higher up etc) but I feel we could do better to keep control of the game.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Has anyone mentioned the tackle he made in the first half where he absolutely smashed one of their players? Tackles like that are rare enough but make such a big difference to the whole atmosphere and attitude, when we’re playing at home. And not what you expect from a player mainly known for being good on the ball. Great to see.

Look how Jimenez goes down. Could have been killed.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Look how Jimenez goes down. Could have been killed.

Love it.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Love it.

What I almost love the most about it is that no foul was called. So often you see referees give a foul on these kinds of challenges simply because a lot of force is involved and the opposing player falls over.

 

[Brazilian_Ronaldo_9]

I think more so Carrick got the subs a bit wrong. Once Cunha came off and Sesko went central Fulham almost had no pressure on their build up. I’m pleased for Sesko scoring but maybe he needs to really hound down the ball more if he’s coming on late.

It’s funny how people watch football as well. Case had a great game but Mainoo literally outperformed him in almost every possible metric offensively and defensively (aside from the key and most memorable ones of scoring and assisting of course). If you go on sofa score for this specific game and compare them it’s genuinely incredible how much work Mainoo got through on and off the ball.

So take away the most important part of the game which won us the game?

Come on lad, Mainoo had a good game and is getting more confident. I am sure he will continue improving as he develops. Casemiro is an experienced ex world class player still performing, there’s no shame to say Casemiro had more impact. That’s not a dig at Mainoo.

 

[EireRed_GS]

Amorim needs a good hard slap for not finding any use for this kid.. He was great yesterday again. him with Casemiro with bruno sitting just in front of them just works so well at the min

 

[jem]

I thought he was fantastic yesterday. Long may it continue.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Look how Jimenez goes down. Could have been killed.

The commentary I was listening too made abit of a deal over this perfectly timed challenge.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

What I almost love the most about it is that no foul was called. So often you see referees give a foul on these kinds of challenges simply because a lot of force is involved and the opposing player falls over.

Yeah it was the perfect example of a Premier League referee making a Premier League call. Would have probably been a foul in a European fixture.

 

[Mike Smalling]

Yeah it was the perfect example of a Premier League referee making a Premier League call. Would have probably been a foul in a European fixture.

I bet he went directly to the chippy after the game as well. Proper English geezer that ref.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I bet he went directly to the chippy after the game as well. Proper English geezer that ref.

I certainly hope he did. Seriously though, there’s a lot of crap talked about what makes the PL special but the referees do allow a level of physicality that isn’t allowed in other leagues. And I’m fully on board with that.

 

[tomaldinho1]

So take away the most important part of the game which won us the game?

Come on lad, Mainoo had a good game and is getting more confident. I am sure he will continue improving as he develops. Casemiro is an experienced ex world class player still performing, there’s no shame to say Casemiro had more impact. That’s not a dig at Mainoo.

Not sure when I said Mainoo had more impact than Case?
My point was that many people seem to just equate the late Fulham pressure with Case going off - whereas it's more to do with Mbeumo shifting wide and Cunha coming off in my opinion. Mainoo had a great game.

 

[saivet]

Very good today. That tackle into Jimenez is going into the wank bank.

 

[SalfordRed18]

Not to be that guy, but wasn't this after he lost the ball for like the second or third time?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Not to be that guy, but wasn't this after he lost the ball for like the second or third time?

Don’t be that guy. And no, I don’t think it was. He lost the ball a lot less than most other United players yesterday, for what it’s worth. Passed the ball more accurately than Casemiro, who’s been (justifiably) getting rave reviews for his performance