It’s also being ignored that Fulham’s fractionally offside goal happened while Casemiro was still on the pitch, directly from a lazy bit of defending by him. Can you imagine the grief he would get if we conceded from Mainoo doing the same thing?
37
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 19
- Goals
- 0
- Assists
- 3
- Yellow cards
- 1
It’s also being ignored that Fulham’s fractionally offside goal happened while Casemiro was still on the pitch, directly from a lazy bit of defending by him. Can you imagine the grief he would get if we conceded from Mainoo doing the same thing?
I have really liked the way he is tweaking his game, there is more intensity in his defensive game and he tries to spread the ball faster. Next he needs to put more weight on his passes and he will be fine.
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My big question is whether he would sign a new contract, or is too angry at the way the club let him be fecked around so would push for a leave. You could understand the sentiment.
A funny thing that we see it differently, but what I saw was us dictating the terms of engagement until Casemiro was subbed off in the 75th minute. Almost immediately after Casemiro walked off the pitch, it was Fulham which controlled the tempo while we sat back hoping to kill off the game with Ugarte shielding the back line.
The dropoff in quality from Casemiro, even old man Case, to prime Ugarte is immense. No, I'm not going to throw Ugarte under the bus and argue that everything goes to hell when he's on the pitch...but Ugarte's lack of quality is a legitimate concern, which is why we're heavily linked to Baleba and Anderson. I don't mind bringing on Ugarte if we have a 3-0 lead in the 80th minute, but Carrick rolled the dice with a 2-0 lead and it's not a coincidence that as soon as Ugarte came on for Casemiro that Fulham penetrated deeper into the hole that Casemiro left behind than they had before.
But we are in agreement that this is not yet a perfect squad. Lammens is brilliant could be a bit sharper in several aspect of play. Shaw is no longer a credible attacking threat and Dalot could be upgraded on. Casemiro is brilliant but can't go 80 minutes any longer. And although our finishing has substantially improved under Carrick, we're still missing more big chances than is reasonable. But unlike earlier in the season when our midfield was getting run through by opponents at will, our midfield is suddenly a core strength. Casemiro, Mainoo and Bruno is a fantastic midfield three which has controlled the terms of engagement -- when to back off and when to attack -- against three top clubs. But can we do it against lowly Tottenham, which undoubtedly will sit very deep and hope to snatch a goal off a free kick? We shall see.
What a shame it is that we can't have even this Casemiro for another season. What Casemiro, Mainoo and Bruno are doing now is almost beyond belief.
I thought yesterday was his best performance out of the 3 by far. He was pinging it around and also getting about the pitch, looking much sharper. More of that please.
I agree
He must have known it was off! But yes, Mainoo would have been called lazy or unfit about 50 times by now..
He's 20 years old. Give it a rest
Disagree. I believe you only see pressing as having the whole team running chasing after the ball and nearest players all game. In reality, we can’t sustain the kind of style all game. Even Pep with new generations of players can’t sustain his pressing game all game every game. Liverpool under slot also changed. In the context of this game, going into the second half especially after gaining 2-0 lead, the pressing choice is opportunistic, not first priority. The team adjusts on situation. Fulham risks it because they are trailing a result, by having the defensive line push up with their wide attacker tuck in to create number advantage in central midfield. Compensated by having full back bombing forward. They’re thus vulnerable and the game could have gotten uglier for them at 2-0. Our personnel weakness and some individual brilliance from them get them two goals, but at the same time we could turn up another gear as seen with Sesko winner and they had no answer to. Our issue is sustainability of a certain approach all game.
Sesko headed that hit the post was the result of high pressing in the final quarter of 90 minute. Then for Jimenez chance around 80 minute where Maguire missed a clearance header, Fulham built up from the goal kick. You can see Bruno was looking back before the short goalkick was taken. Bruno was signaling to press high, but the back line decided to communicate to drop off instead. As the retreating mode activated, the midfield and forwards didn’t press, but gradually drop to slow Fulham defensive line to push up. The distance between our line was huge, and the defensively was in our half even before the goal kick was taken. Fulham could gain territory into our half, but they barely penetrate outside of individual mistake/ athletic short coming. Maguire was clearly targeted for his lack of pace with ball being played over his shoulder, in behind. Whereas second goal was a screamer shot after exploiting Amad lack of defensive awareness, losing Kevin from a very obvious off the ball movement.
Age, fitness and athletic quality of our players especially the defenders are affecting the ceiling of what we can reach. Pressing all game means you need to have the whole team on the required level of fitness and athletic quality AND having a great know how plan with possession.
Any comparison with under ETH is invalid. During ETH best period in the first season, ETH hated to play Maguire. He even played Shaw as CB with partner Varane than using Maguire. It’s beyond the form issue, Maguire kept running back at first sign of counter attack and break offside trap/ widen the gap between lines. We were fairly solid when Varane was fit and having Fred to provide energy in the midfield. It went to shite selling Fred and when injury crisis hit on top of ETH trying to be clever with one man field tactic. In ETH first season, we had game like against Brentford and Everton where we dominated them that they didn’t get a proper scoring chance all game.
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Can’t play with Bruno apparently. Was competing with him for a spot according to our former manager
Well not in a 2 men midfield but never understood why we tried this for so long
Stubborn manager who refused to change.
Bruno should never have been in a 2 man midfield. Look how many more assists he’s getting in that #10 role
I’ve read this twice and still don’t get what did you disagree about. Your point is about not being able to press the entire game, and I did mention lack of squat depth is at fault here (and it’s bigger than Ugarte only).
You said they could barely penetrate but the game ended pretty level on stats and on half time it was very much fifty fifty. Then we had better 30mins but it wasn’t like Fulham only played well last 20mins.
Fulham have been really good this game so nothing to worry about, but we looked more compact defensively in previous two games IMO. So the difference is interesting for me from tactical perspective.
Not sure if you mean he needs to follow Martinez or Shaw here.
Fulham best and clear chance until final of quarter of 30 minute is the first half corner sequence which led to one vs one against Lammens.
The main tactic difference is what I described in my last post. We were so comfortable with the lead which was not the case in the previous two games, so going in second half pressing is optional.
The Fulham chance around 80th, our defense communicated to the front line to drop instead of pressing, this led to us making the pitch large by our own choice thus made us easy to play through. It’s not a depth issue. that is personnel preference from the like of Maguire aka personnel issue. Starter CBs at former high pressing teams don’t get subbed unless for injuries or disastrous performance. The whole CB for CB sub nonsense is an Amorim special. You don’t need CB depth so to sub them to play full 90 minute of high press if you have the right personnel. The last second decision to switch from pressing high from a goal kick to drop and leave big space between the lines in a well drilled team is rare. Here our issue is the defenders prefer a difference approach which creates issue with the plan seeing game out. You can have prime Kante, but when the defenders decide to switch things up this way, you still can’t stop Fulham to progress the ball.
Bruno asked the back line to push up, but they refused. This was before the actually goal kick occurred. The ball was being returned to Leno.
Couple seconds before Leno made the short goal kick, Bruno was now talking to Sesko to instruct him to drop.
Few seconds later, Fulham progresses up the pitch unchallenged due to the big space created from our deep defensive line.
Classic Maguire moment to prefer to drop deeper and deeper to create one man defensive line because he’s too worried about the space behind rather than trusting the execution of offside trap. This sequence should have been a non story, but the change due to the on field decision of the back line creates an issue.
Now compare to 5 minute earlier, for the Sesko hitting the post chance: we pressed high and forced a turn over. we can see Maguire on Fulham half of the pitch when the ball was headed toward Mainoo. Saying we didn’t press it’s merely a structural issue, tactical instruction from Carrick is wrong.
We were trying to be more positive to get the third goal at 2-0, but were caught between two mind at times. In previous games, a draw could have been good result. We were in one mind in staying compact less adventurous in our high pressing.
Edit: Now for the chance leading to the penalty:
Fulham tried to break away but their attackers were man maked. Sessegnon was being chased down Ugarte. our defensive line had already dropped too deep and created acres of space.
Ugarte managed to press Sessegnon into slow down, thus allowed Sesko, Mainoo arguably Amad to get back and regroup.
The midfielders and right sided attackers trapped and pressed Fulham players. Bruno Mbeumo and Amad ran out of gas and was slacking in tracking back. This gives Fulham number advantage in midfield and good passing option, even after we successfully stopped a quick break.
Sander Berge gets lot of space and time to find and make a good pass in behind for Jimenez targeting Maguire. By the time the pass was played, another same old problem was on display: we’re terrible at organizing offside trap. Shaw all these years has still been very poor at it. Martinez to a lesser extent.
This time, we tried to press in the midblock, but the deep defensive line betrayed the effort. You can’t ask for more from Mainoo. He ran non stop during this part of the sequence. the problem is not tactical instruction either as the example of Sesko chances showed. The problem lies with the defenders’ choice to drop deep out of sync with team. It’s a theme going back to Ole’s last season, Rangnick, ETH first season when playing the high line.
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There's not a lot of mystery here. We built up a 2-0 lead into the 75th minute or so, a lead which not even the harshest United critic would deny was deserved, we subbed of Casemiro and went into a shell to run out the clock and the get the eff outta there, but not long after Ugarte Maguire gave up a needless pen -- which happens to the best of us -- and then with the lead narrowed down to 2-1 Fulham's tails were up and ours were down and they scored on a worldie.
Kobbie put in a proper shift and even showed some defensive nous that we were complaining about not that long ago he didn't have.
Kobbie put in a proper shift and even showed some defensive nous that we were complaining about not that long ago he didn't have.
Pleasantly surprised by Mainoo's evolution he is showing different facets of his game which I didnt believe existed , happy to see him do well and concede I may have been wrong about him long it may continue .
I’m just pointing out your point stating every metric.
Casemiro just gives us an extra body in the back defensively. Fulham came out attacking, I don’t rate Mbeumo on the left wing. It’s the whole team collapse, I don’t think it will just stop here. We will see it happen in other matches.
You’d be surprised Casemiro has been crucified in the past until he has shown people how good he is. But still people want an upgrade on him due to his age, so I can’t agree with this comment.
Only good at short passes and press resistance, too. Turns out they are beneficial traits for a central midfielder.
It is interesting to see him play three full games in a row, haven't placed the utmost attention, but (and with age and more training it does make some sense) it does suggest his stamina grows to be increasingly reliable. Perhaps too soon to judge, especially without most cup competitions for most of this season, but I do remember that when possible ETH would take a good Mainoo off between the 60 and 80 minute marks, and when not possible you could (more clearly) see why.
While out of the current first team squad he might be the best option around, I do think it would be good to replace Casemiro more directly than they initially tried with Ugarte. Think he's too box-to-box/wild, and kind of reminds me of how Fred and McTominay had the occasional games where they functioned well as DM, but clearly unsustainable, while both showed they'd function better in other set ups or next to a deep playmaker or otherwise solid, deep holding midfielder. In theory they could have done a job in a midfield 2 with 3 center backs, if a CB like Licha can take on more responsibility in those areas and if the 10s or wide players can take on more creative tasks, too. Right now I think Ugarte be a safer backup for Mainoo or even Bruno to move the midfield into a flatter 3. But in the current state of affairs I'd see him as the 7th midfielder for all 3 positions combined, rather than a 2nd in any of them. But don't think that's what he eagerly left PSG for.
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He's playing well, nice to have him back in the team showing what he can do. You'd nearly forget he is still only 20, he's got a lot of growing to do as a player, but he already has a lot of excellent qualities. Just want to see him playing more and improving as the season goes on, quality player.
Loved his tackle against Fulham, wonderful stuff.
Loved his tackle against Fulham, wonderful stuff.
If Bruno decides to leave, then a midfield of Kobbie - Wharton - Anderson would work well, but I suppose it depends on who's going to be our new manager.. I'm still hopeful that Enrique is the one.. I wanted him to replace Ollie.
You are arguing a point that nobody made. I actually mentioned in first sentence of my comment "I don't necessarily believe backline is such a problem.". So there's nothing to discuss here.
The bolded part is what I meant by "lack of squad depth". Both Amad and Mbuemo were exhausted, Mainoo was tired as well - but we don't really have many options to sub them. That meant once Casemiro went off, this was a trigger for Fulham to go offensive as they smelled blood with how low energy our team was.
I like your explanation with being caught between two minds (press? drop?) and defensive line dropping too deep for a mid block to be effective. That combined with exhausted front/midfield players looks like a major problem for us for remaining of the season. This is why I think teams like City have long spells of posession, they can rest and regroup. I think we should train on that element rather than ceeding control of the game because by default we do better without the ball. We certainly have the players now to hold the possession much easier. This is a coaching issue that Carrick should be able to fix imo. We don't need to attack for 90' but with Mainoo and Casemiro midfield we also don't want to chase the ball too much, what is the whole point of this nice little thread we have going on here.
I don’t understand what you’re trying to say?
Now you are saying what I said re Mbeumo shifting being the problem, not subbing Casemiro?
Gave the ball away a lot and didn't contribute much going forward. He's great in tight spaces but he's not having much effect on the game.
seriously?
Cant agree with you at all. He has been one of our best players in all three of our last games.
Why? What did he do that was so great? I thought Iwobi and Berge looked more effective than him.
Really encouraging performance since he is back in the team. If he has a manager who knows how to make use of his talents he is actually pretty good and Carrick seems to be getting it right.
he had an involvement in 1 of the goals, switched play a number of times with cross field passes, made two important tackles that stopped attacks on goal, made one pass that resulted in a shot on goal. I watched a video of all his touches and only saw him lose possession once. Most importantly he kept the ball speed up. Not sure what game you watched. He was effective, efficient and did what was asked of him.
It's less a matter of whether they watch and more a matter of do they actually understand what he does and why it's important. He's the one that connects everything in terms of being able to move the ball up the pitch cohesively and establish possession in the opposing half, he's very good defensively in and around the area as a back 4 shield, he can receive the ball under pressure and take 2-3 opposing players out of the game with one drop of his shoulder, and he's even man marked opposing midfielders under Carrick. With a more nuanced understanding of football it's clear as day.
I mean he clearly didn't lose possession once, that's just factually incorrect. Even amongst the obvious I recall 3 easy passes right into the Fulham player. Looking at the stats he lost it via passing 7 times and a couple of duels, nothing major though.
He had an average game, his best work was actually defensive. Still the issue with him isn't the obvious on the ball work or the tackles it's his positioning. He occasionally has the Pogba tendency of strolling up the pitch leaving a gap and then not sprinting back. For some reason people ignore positioning when rating players, happened with Pogba then McTominay now Mainoo.
Yep and he lost it plenty of times so that's out the window. He then went missing on 84 minutes with a 2 nil lead and let someone run at our defense.
Do you understand that nuanced point?
Which goal was he involved in?
I honestly think you don’t want to admit he’s been good because it clashes with your support for Amorim. Saying Kobbie has played well would mean Amorim got it wrong, and I can’t see any other reason why you’d deny it.
Kobbie Mainoo is back to his best
https://www.unitedinfocus.com/opini...rfect-developmental-star-for-michael-carrick/
Since his return to the team, Mainoo has particularly impressed with his off-ball work. He set a season record for any player with his running in the Manchester Derby, covering 7.9 kilometres out of possession.
Mainoo is attempting more than seven tackles per 90 minutes, recording a 52 per cent success rate.
That means he has attempted 44 tackles in 508 minutes, a rate of 7.7 per game.
For context, Arsenal’s Declan Rice has attempted 99 tackles in almost four-times the minutes (1,966) at only 5.45 attempts per game.
Most impressively Mainoo has regained the ball 71 times, showing his quick anticipation and reading of the game. Rice meanwhile has only done so 37 times this season.
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I'm purely talking about the Fulham game.
He lost it plenty of times and he went missing on 84 minutes with a 2 nil lead and let someone run at our defense. He had an average game.
Its not his sole responsibility to block in front of our defence. No 20 year old midfielder is the complete package either. In both combinations starting with Casemiro and ending with Ugarte next to him it is more their responsibility as defensive minded players and older more experienced players to help block in front of the defence. On the first goal he is pressing a player who passes it to another that has Ugarte in proximity. A good pass from that player put Berge away behind our midfield. Mainoo makes more of an effort to get back but isnt going to catch him. Was it too easy to get in behind our midfield there? Yes. Partly Mainoo's fault and partly Ugarte's. On the 2nd goal its Ugarte who doesnt close down Kevin enough to block the strike.
Mainoo was dispossessed once, he had one unsafe touch. In comparison Bruno was dispossessed once and had three unsafe touches. Mainoo had our highest pass accuracy of 85.7% out of our midfield and attacking midfielders with Bruno 83.3% and Casemiro 79.5%. So while Casemiro was disposessed 0 times and had 0 unsafe touches, he gave the ball away more with his passing. Mainoo had 11 passes into the final third, 2nd in the team behind Dalot with 12 and Casemiro had 7. He had our joint most passes with Dalot at 49 each
He did not lose the ball a lot. He played well
Cunhas goal. He found Casemiro who made that great pass through the lines
Some really good observations, above, both ways. Unfortunately, defending isn’t like chess where the game stops to allow the opponent to move (yes, I know
) hence, as seen, the gap between Kobbie and Ugarte leaving us exposed happens. Of course, we just need to minimise it and with a more stable/regular understanding, along with the resulting match fitness for some players, it will improve.
Nothing like match fitness (physically and between the ears) to sharpen up and I think he will continue to do that. Amorim probably had a valid point that he needed more urgency and quickness in his game but he was never going to get that with 10 minute cameos, so a bit of a catch 22.
) hence, as seen, the gap between Kobbie and Ugarte leaving us exposed happens. Of course, we just need to minimise it and with a more stable/regular understanding, along with the resulting match fitness for some players, it will improve.Nothing like match fitness (physically and between the ears) to sharpen up and I think he will continue to do that. Amorim probably had a valid point that he needed more urgency and quickness in his game but he was never going to get that with 10 minute cameos, so a bit of a catch 22.