[Apokalips]

It was always obvious and I hate how so many turned on Kobbie to defend Amorim. He is one of the best young CMs about. Is he the finished article? Nowhere near, he's just a pup but he is quality and Manchester United is about nurturing it's young talents not throwing them under the bus.

I will never understand how people could buy that he can't play with Bruno, considering he has only ever played ...with Bruno!

 

[Chief123]

The majority of Mainoos passes weren't too special and we played against 10 men for 2 thirds of the game. A high passing percentage and a lot of time in the opposition final third is great stuff but the context of the game plays into it. Again - I reacted to a post, that said he didn't misplace any pass. Which is wrong. He misplaced a few and a lot of the ones he made where to the player right next to him. Nothing wrong with all that - but the notion that this disproves the criticism towards his passing is not thought through. I don't think anybody questioned his ability to make short passes or even medium passes. He struggles with long passes and that seemingly was required in the last setup.

Rather than doubling down, it’s better to let it go.

 

[NZT-One]

Rather than doubling down, it’s better to let it go.

Rather than answering as fast as possible, maybe engage with the content of what I wrote instead. Posting in here has become tedious as feck, people get hyperbolic and when that gets pointed out they (and others apparently) get defensive for some reason

 

[Chief123]

Rather than answering as fast as possible, maybe engage with the content of what I wrote instead. Posting in here has become tedious as feck, people get hyperbolic and when that gets pointed out they (and others apparently) get defensive for some reason

It’s probably tedious for you because you’re making points which are silly and invalid.

 

[NZT-One]

It’s probably tedious for you because you’re making points which are silly and invalid.

"Rather than doubling down, it’s better to let it go."

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Yeah. 5. Even if it had just been one - I reacted to a post who said he didn't misplace any pass. A N Y. No need to defend your boy here, I just pointed out that he had a good game myself.

My boy? Let's not start that nonsense. If you scroll through my posts, you’ll see I critiqued parts of his performance today too. The difference? Mine was sensible. Yours… well, it kinda came off like you just posted for the sake of posting, which is why it read a bit silly and got the reaction you did.

 

[Chief123]

"Rather than doubling down, it’s better to let it go."

“people get hyperbolic and when that gets pointed out they (and others apparently) get defensive for some reason”

The irony.

 

[Fracture90]

Comments tell me, Amorim lurks this particular thread.

 

[Scandi Red]

Good game today.

I do think that Mainoo had a poor period where he deserved to be benched on the back of that. But completely giving up on him due to that stupid 3-at-the-back system was always the wrong call. Mainoo is just 20 years old and he was a starter for England already at age 18, so the potential is obviously there.

 

[NZT-One]

My boy? Let's not start that nonsense. If you scroll through my posts, you’ll see I critiqued parts of his performance today too.

Fair enough. I didn't want to give the impression that you are a fanboy or anything like that. I just find the reaction a bit odd to be perfectly honest. Another poster said that Mainoo didn't misplace one pass - I only pointed out that this isn't correct. And look how many attack me on semi-personal level now - even when I said myself, that Mainoo had a good game.

The difference? Mine was sensible. Yours… well, it kinda came off like you just posted for the sake of posting, which is why it read a bit silly and got the reaction you did.

It was. But mine was too. Except the word "sensible" has some other meaning I am not aware of (English not first language). I pointed out that the player did miss a few passes. You posting that he had 94% completion agrees with me more than it did with the initial post I reacted to.

 

[NZT-One]

“people get hyperbolic and when that gets pointed out they (and others apparently) get defensive for some reason”

The irony.

You are so witty. Help me - what exactly was the hyperbolic thing I said? I honestly don't know.

 

[jem]

Fantastic again. MOTM contender for me.

 

[Jeffthered]

I thought he was ok today, no more, no less.. some nice touches.. I would like to see him offer more drive, dynamism.. Casimero sets the tone, and I think Mainoo needs to be prepared, in time, to be the spark, the lead, rather than play a supporting cast. Today was a good opportunity for him to really express himself. He's young, yet it's Casimero who creates more, scores more, has more chances and asks more of the opposition.

Mainoo sometimes seems to play like his position and qualities are a given. Bruno doesn't do that. Martinez doesn't do that. Maguire doesn't do that. Casimero doesn't do that. Mbuma doesn't that.

 

[Ekeke]

The majority of Mainoos passes weren't too special and we played against 10 men for 2 thirds of the game. A high passing percentage and a lot of time in the opposition final third is great stuff but the context of the game plays into it. Again - I reacted to a post, that said he didn't misplace any pass. Which is wrong. He misplaced a few and a lot of the ones he made where to the player right next to him. Nothing wrong with all that - but the notion that this disproves the criticism towards his passing is not thought through. I don't think anybody questioned his ability to make short passes or even medium passes. He struggles with long passes and that seemingly was required in the last setup.

If Mainoo was better at long passes do you think he would have played instead of Bruno Fernandes? No. Of course not. Long passes suit us more now than under Amorim as we actually counter attack now instead of slowing the game down and patiently building up even when a counter is possible. However with Casemiro next to him, Lisandro behind him and Bruno in front of him we have plenty of long passers so its not the most important thing, even though its more important than under the last manager. He does have plenty of room for improvement for how often he tries a long pass and I hope to see it myself, but hes doing a great job for a 20 year old right now regardless and deserves his spot in the team.

 

[Raoul]

I thought he was ok today, no more, no less.. some nice touches.. I would like to see him offer more drive, dynamism.. Casimero sets the tone, and I think Mainoo needs to be prepared, in time, to be the spark, the lead, rather than play a supporting cast. Today was a good opportunity for him to really express himself. He's young, yet it's Casimero who creates more, scores more, has more chances and asks more of the opposition.

Mainoo sometimes seems to play like his position and qualities are a given. Bruno doesn't do that. Martinez doesn't do that. Maguire doesn't do that. Casimero doesn't do that. Mbuma doesn't that.

Agreed. Decent performance, but nothing more.

 

[NZT-One]

If Mainoo was better at long passes do you think he would have played instead of Bruno Fernandes? No. Of course not.

It would have given the manager the option to play him there and Bruno further up. Instead of Bruno - surely not. But you could make a point that he played Bruno in CM because he is the only one to really be able to make long passes. He played Casemiro next to him most of the time, probably because he is the 2nd best in this. (I am mostly talking about this seasons iteration of the team)

Long passes suit us more now than under Amorim as we actually counter attack now instead of slowing the game down and patiently building up even when a counter is possible. However with Casemiro next to him, Lisandro behind him and Bruno in front of him we have plenty of long passers so its not the most important thing, even though its more important than under the last manager.

I don't think I said that long passes are the most relevant thing. But I think they were pretty important for Amorims last setup.
edit: I don't think it is more important now than it has been before. Amorims last team was very direct. Carricks team for now is a tad more conservative even if they do play for short transitions as well.

He does have plenty of room for improvement for how often he tries a long pass and I hope to see it myself, but hes doing a great job for a 20 year old right now regardless and deserves his spot in the team.

As said - I wouldn't have placed him on the bench anyways. My point is, I can see why it happened even I wouldn't have done so myself.

 

[Rolaholic]

 

[Red Royal]

I must admit, I was fooled by Amorin banishing Kobie to a bit part player. He really should be a long term asset for this club. He is nowhere near the finished article yet at just 20 years of age, but under Carricks tuteledge he will shine.

 

[Lunar Rock]

It seems to me a lot of fans who don't see it with Kobbie are expecting debut Kobbie. Twitchy, flair, exciting. There was so little structure under ETH I can almost guarantee he was told to just go out and do your thing. I actually don't think this player is coming back.

What we are seeing now is a more mature player. There is structure and assignments from the manager. And I think he's adapted beautifully. His greatest asset is his brain. He's a born footballer. As with any 20 year old there are things that he can improve one. I would be willing he will do just that .

Regardless , what a player.

 

[Ekeke]

It would have given the manager the option to play him there and Bruno further up. Instead of Bruno - surely not. But you could make a point that he played Bruno in CM because he is the only one to really be able to make long passes. He played Casemiro next to him most of the time, probably because he is the 2nd best in this. (I am mostly talking about this seasons iteration of the team)

I don't think I said that long passes are the most relevant thing. But I think they were pretty important for Amorim team.

As said - I wouldn't have placed him on the bench anyways. My point is, I can see why it happened even I wouldn't have done so myself.

If Casemiro is playing because hes 2nd best to Bruno at long balls, then he can play next to Mainoo because hes the 2nd best at long balls? But Mainoo didnt get starts with Bruno in AM. So I dont think this is the reasoning

I think its simply that Bruno and Casemiro are closer to their primes and considered better overall than Mainoo, and same thing with Cunha and Mbeumo. Regardless of any long passing, because Bruno being in the team in some position gives you that. And I dont blame a manager for thinking that way either. Its true, they're all closer to their primes with more experience than him. But hes not going to get it if you never give him chances and Cunha wasnt in great form so I feel like it was a bit too clear that the manager didnt rate him at the moment and wouldnt give him starts. If he'd had a couple of starts in the league and hadnt taken the chance then I'm sure we'd all understand a lot more why he isnt starting.

One of the other things though is that Mainoo should also have been an option as the DM, especially as a sub. Instead Ugarte would always come on and he wasnt playing well, so again it felt wrong that he wasnt first choice sub for both roles in our midfield

 

[Rolaholic]

 

[avgp_1]

Carrick is using his strengths well. Him being the one to receive the ball from the backs is definitely what suits him in possession

 

[NZT-One]

If Casemiro is playing because hes 2nd best to Bruno at long balls, then he can play next to Mainoo because hes the 2nd best at long balls? But Mainoo didnt get starts with Bruno in AM. So I dont think this is the reasoning.

Amorim played Bruno and Casemiro because I think they were the best combination when it comes to playing the sort of passes he wanted played for his approach AND defensive "solidity". I am not sure I get your thought here. I thought there was consensus that Mainoo wouldn't replace Bruno in that setup and that his defensive solidity also wasn't at the required level to really replace Casemiro. Now Bruno moved up, something that didn't happen too often in the last year, and there is a spot next to Casemiro - which naturally falls to Mainoo.

I think its simply that Bruno and Casemiro are closer to their primes and considered better overall than Mainoo, and same thing with Cunha and Mbeumo. Regardless of any long passing, because Bruno being in the team in some position gives you that. And I dont blame a manager for thinking that way either. Its true, they're all closer to their primes with more experience than him. But hes not going to get it if you never give him chances and Cunha wasnt in great form so I feel like it was a bit too clear that the manager didnt rate him at the moment and wouldnt give him starts. If he'd had a couple of starts in the league and hadnt taken the chance then I'm sure we'd all understand a lot more why he isnt starting.

I wouldn't argue with that, playing players in their prime certainly is a thing, although, I'd say when thats the objective, nobody at all would have been mad at Ruben, had he played Ugarte (who is the one who is in his prime (physically) the most out of those 4) or played Mainoo since he is about to reach it, not Casemiro who left his prime already. So yeah, standing might also play into it, there is a good chance. But I don't think, there is a very substantial case that this is "a better reason" than the difference in skillset. I mean, when Mainoo played, it often went along with us going down a notch when it comes to attack. He wasn't a worse player then than he is now but he couldn't play the same balls that Bruno and Casemiro dared to play. And I think that is still the case now - doesn't make Mainoo a worse player at all - just that such speculative long balls haven't been as essential in the last few games.

One of the other things though is that Mainoo should also have been an option as the DM, especially as a sub. Instead Ugarte would always come on and he wasnt playing well, so again it felt wrong that he wasnt first choice sub for both roles in our midfield

I have a bit of a soft spot for Ugarte but I can see your point here. The drop off in terms of ball playing ability was very very noticable. But I think, Ugarte did quite well in terms of covering space and making tackles when needed. As said, Mainoos ability against the press is way better than every other midfield option we have so I would have tried to play him anyways - but not as a DM where I think, he is still lacking positioning and to a degree intensity. I think, he'd be fine next to another player who is strong in that regard - but if he is supposed to be the defensive one to free up his partner, I don't think thats a good setup at all. But I think, we agree on that.

 

[Zed is not dead]

I think the possession stat was about 70/30 in our favour before the sending off.

I know, and it’s not a dig at Mainoo. It’s normal that a midfielder will see more of the ball in a game where an opponent got sent off.
My point is that even when you take that into consideration you can see him performing better each game

 

[Zed is not dead]

Filthy performance today. The nitpicking here is surreal.

Same people will go to crazy lengths to explain why Baleba is a 100m midfielder

 

[Zed is not dead]

I thought he was ok today, no more, no less.. some nice touches.. I would like to see him offer more drive, dynamism.. Casimero sets the tone, and I think Mainoo needs to be prepared, in time, to be the spark, the lead, rather than play a supporting cast. Today was a good opportunity for him to really express himself. He's young, yet it's Casimero who creates more, scores more, has more chances and asks more of the opposition.

Mainoo sometimes seems to play like his position and qualities are a given. Bruno doesn't do that. Martinez doesn't do that. Maguire doesn't do that. Casimero doesn't do that. Mbuma doesn't that.

He’s a 20yo midfielder, picking up form and confidence after more than a year on the bench with a coach that absolutely didn’t trust him.

The expectations here are crazy sometimes.

 

[Zed is not dead]

Amorim played Bruno and Casemiro because I think they were the best combination when it comes to playing the sort of passes he wanted played for his approach AND defensive "solidity". I am not sure I get your thought here. I thought there was consensus that Mainoo wouldn't replace Bruno in that setup and that his defensive solidity also wasn't at the required level to really replace Casemiro. Now Bruno moved up, something that didn't happen too often in the last year, and there is a spot next to Casemiro - which naturally falls to Mainoo.

I wouldn't argue with that, playing players in their prime certainly is a thing, although, I'd say when thats the objective, nobody at all would have been mad at Ruben, had he played Ugarte (who is the one who is in his prime (physically) the most out of those 4) or played Mainoo since he is about to reach it, not Casemiro who left his prime already. So yeah, standing might also play into it, there is a good chance. But I don't think, there is a very substantial case that this is "a better reason" than the difference in skillset. I mean, when Mainoo played, it often went along with us going down a notch when it comes to attack. He wasn't a worse player then than he is now but he couldn't play the same balls that Bruno and Casemiro dared to play. And I think that is still the case now - doesn't make Mainoo a worse player at all - just that such speculative long balls haven't been as essential in the last few games.

I have a bit of a soft spot for Ugarte but I can see your point here. The drop off in terms of ball playing ability was very very noticable. But I think, Ugarte did quite well in terms of covering space and making tackles when needed. As said, Mainoos ability against the press is way better than every other midfield option we have so I would have tried to play him anyways - but not as a DM where I think, he is still lacking positioning and to a degree intensity. I think, he'd be fine next to another player who is strong in that regard - but if he is supposed to be the defensive one to free up his partner, I don't think thats a good setup at all. But I think, we agree on that.

Funny that you have a soft spot for Ugarte, considering what you regularly post in Bruno’s thread and the nitpicking at « misplaced passes » for Mainoo today

 

[Borys]

I thought he was ok today, no more, no less.. some nice touches.. I would like to see him offer more drive, dynamism.. Casimero sets the tone, and I think Mainoo needs to be prepared, in time, to be the spark, the lead, rather than play a supporting cast. Today was a good opportunity for him to really express himself. He's young, yet it's Casimero who creates more, scores more, has more chances and asks more of the opposition.

Mainoo sometimes seems to play like his position and qualities are a given. Bruno doesn't do that. Martinez doesn't do that. Maguire doesn't do that. Casimero doesn't do that. Mbuma doesn't that.

Casemiro is clearly a better passer of the ball at the moment. Bruno isn’t even on the same planet if we’re honest.
But keep in mind he didn’t need to offer more drive and “force it” because he was actually the reason we controlled the game so well.

I see where you’re coming from with that comment, but it’s not the game to judge that. Once we’re 70’ in against low block in a draw- that’s when I’ll be looking at Mainoo closer in what he can bring to to our offensive game.

 

[Djemba-Djemba]

Amorim played Bruno and Casemiro because I think they were the best combination when it comes to playing the sort of passes he wanted played for his approach AND defensive "solidity". I am not sure I get your thought here. I thought there was consensus that Mainoo wouldn't replace Bruno in that setup and that his defensive solidity also wasn't at the required level to really replace Casemiro. Now Bruno moved up, something that didn't happen too often in the last year, and there is a spot next to Casemiro - which naturally falls to Mainoo.

I wouldn't argue with that, playing players in their prime certainly is a thing, although, I'd say when thats the objective, nobody at all would have been mad at Ruben, had he played Ugarte (who is the one who is in his prime (physically) the most out of those 4) or played Mainoo since he is about to reach it, not Casemiro who left his prime already. So yeah, standing might also play into it, there is a good chance. But I don't think, there is a very substantial case that this is "a better reason" than the difference in skillset. I mean, when Mainoo played, it often went along with us going down a notch when it comes to attack. He wasn't a worse player then than he is now but he couldn't play the same balls that Bruno and Casemiro dared to play. And I think that is still the case now - doesn't make Mainoo a worse player at all - just that such speculative long balls haven't been as essential in the last few games.

I have a bit of a soft spot for Ugarte but I can see your point here. The drop off in terms of ball playing ability was very very noticable. But I think, Ugarte did quite well in terms of covering space and making tackles when needed. As said, Mainoos ability against the press is way better than every other midfield option we have so I would have tried to play him anyways - but not as a DM where I think, he is still lacking positioning and to a degree intensity. I think, he'd be fine next to another player who is strong in that regard - but if he is supposed to be the defensive one to free up his partner, I don't think thats a good setup at all. But I think, we agree on that.

The stick you regularly give out to Bruno, but you have a soft spot for Ugarte

 

[Rossa]

His conditioning looks massively improved. Intensity levels are up, rund much more, goes engages in physical duels and looks quicker and more nimble. He’s also on the face of it adapting his game. He’s not the finished article, but who is at 20?

 

[criticalanalysis]

Then you haven't watched him very well. I think, he played well and his ability on the ball gives us something we haven't used for ages but his passing remains uninspiring. He surely is able to hit passes sideways and with a bit of space also through the lines here and there.

It's subjective of course but I think the bolded is why people have taken issue with your criticism. He has lots to improve but you're expecting too much and it's unneccessary ask in our team currently. On the contrary, he's actually doing most of the things that is exactly what we need to performing as well as we have now i.e winning 4 games in a row.

He's not there to be constantly breaking lines or ask questions consistently in a forward/progressive sense and if you do, I would say your understanding of our game under Carrick as flawed/unrealistic IMO. We've been sat in a fairly conservative mid-block where the two midfielders sit in front of the two CBs with their main jobs being to protect the middle, put out fires, be a first and second option for the ball, recycle possession and play progressive balls (when they can) for other players. This will mean lots of square balls, lots of receiving on the ball in tighter positions...only to square it again to the man in space etc and so forth.

If you don't recognise this and instead believe it to be uninspiring then it's a marked difference on your expectations and how you're viewing his/the game compared to how others see it. You already have Bruno, Cunha, Amad and Mbeumo, there's doesn't need to be anything more 'inspiring', just get the ball to their feet when you see them. It's not like we are dominating possession as a team with great defensive solidarity and there's multiple first and second runs behind the opposition defence etc. And even if there were, I would be questioning if it's even wise to be playing progressive longer passes because it means a potential counter for the opposition.

Mainoo's retention and distribution of the ball has been absolutely more than fine the previous 3 and even in today's game where they were a man down.

 

[SungSam7]

Good enough to play in a stacked England team in the Euro Final 2024 to be deemed not good enough by Amorim.
So many unanswered questions that will never be answered.

 

[Lewnited]

Letting him go in favour of that pretend manager would have gone against the entire ethos of the club. Glad to see him doing well and can't wait to see how he improves.

 

[Jeffthered]

It seems to me a lot of fans who don't see it with Kobbie are expecting debut Kobbie. Twitchy, flair, exciting. There was so little structure under ETH I can almost guarantee he was told to just go out and do your thing. I actually don't think this player is coming back.

What we are seeing now is a more mature player. There is structure and assignments from the manager. And I think he's adapted beautifully. His greatest asset is his brain. He's a born footballer. As with any 20 year old there are things that he can improve one. I would be willing he will do just that .

Regardless , what a player.

Could you elaborate?

 

[Gavinb33]

I loathe to say this out loud but Carl Anka is right and there are many posters on here who subscribe to this, everyone is so focused on what he can't do rather than what he can do and people also want him to be something he might not ever be to, Carrick had the same when he came to United everyone at the time was fixated on replacing Keane everything Carrick did early was under the microscope of what Keane did and he just wasn't that player and likely Kobbie might not be the player everyone wants him to be but what he does he bloody good at already.

 

[Rustyspider13]

How I wish he was a tad faster. He resists the press so well but can't put good distance between him and the pressers and has to pass it instead of holding a second longer to make space for others and himself. Hopefully his physicality goes up a level as he grows up because his technique is already at a high level.

 

[Man of Leisure]

Beautiful

 

[gaffs]

There needs to be so many apologies written by people on The Caf over Kobbie.

 

[Berbasbullet]

Simple but effective! Sign a new contract please.

 

[NZT-One]

Funny that you have a soft spot for Ugarte, considering what you regularly post in Bruno’s thread and the nitpicking at « misplaced passes » for Mainoo today

The stick you regularly give out to Bruno, but you have a soft spot for Ugarte

I didn't nitpick misplaced passes I just noted their existence as an answer (for Mainoo in this recent case, and also about Bruno). But if my points to you boil down to "is angry at misplaced passes" then I guess, there isn't much to talk about since that isn't really my point. I think, Ugarte can be pretty good in the right environment. Which we don't provide him with. Same can be said about Bruno and Mainoo. The latter two haven't been in the right environment for quite some time. Thats what I usually point out. Again - boiling it just down to "is critical because of bad passing" isn't really the point.

It's subjective of course but I think the bolded is why people have taken issue with your criticism. He has lots to improve but you're expecting too much and it's unneccessary ask in our team currently. On the contrary, he's actually doing most of the things that is exactly what we need to performing as well as we have now i.e winning 4 games in a row.

I don't expect too much of him when I point out that his passing isn't the most inspiring. Thats just my reaction to posts that act as if all the things that have been said about his skillset in the recent past have been rendered nonsensical by the latest performances. I personally don't think that Mainoo is the reason for our uptake in results even though it might be one of many factors. I do hope, he gets gametime to develop and we find a way to play in a way that maximizes his strengths and talent.

He's not there to be constantly breaking lines or ask questions consistently in a forward/progressive sense and if you do, I would say your understanding of our game under Carrick as flawed/unrealistic IMO. We've been sat in a fairly conservative mid-block where the two midfielders sit in front of the two CBs with their main jobs being to protect the middle, put out fires, be a first and second option for the ball, recycle possession and play progressive balls (when they can) for other players. This will mean lots of square balls, lots of receiving on the ball in tighter positions...only to square it again to the man in space etc and so forth.

I think, the way we passed today had way more to do with playing with a man up for two thirds of the game than with the actual game plan. But I see your overall point.

If you don't recognise this and instead believe it to be uninspiring then it's a marked difference on your expectations and how you're viewing his/the game compared to how others see it. You already have Bruno, Cunha, Amad and Mbeumo, there's doesn't need to be anything more 'inspiring', just get the ball to their feet when you see them. It's not like we are dominating possession as a team with great defensive solidarity and there's multiple first and second runs behind the opposition defence etc. And even if there were, I would be questioning if it's even wise to be playing progressive longer passes because it means a potential counter for the opposition.

You don't necessarily have to play progressive passes to be inspiring to me. A well timed switch can be just as good. The word I've chosen is not ideal, I see the confusion there. Let me tell you what I meant - I don't think Mainoos passing has been better (or worse) than in his outings before. Thats what I meant - he didn't somehow went up a level, which is what I think many posts indicate. I don't think that happened - but keep in mind that this isn't a criticism about his passing. Just a description of the status quo. Many posters though seem to flatten this discussion down to whether a player has been good or bad. Mainoo has played very well in the last games. But that still doesn't mean, that the descriptions of his passing have somehow been wronged now.

Mainoo's retention and distribution of the ball has been absolutely more than fine the previous 3 and even in today's game where they were a man down.

It has been fine. No argument there.