[Winrar]

This is very true. Thank god he sacked himself because the clowns up top weren’t going to.

This is one thing I'm actually going to give him credit for. Forced the board's hand in getting rid of himself.

 

[Freak]

I think Baleba or Wharton would work, and then depends what you prioritize.

Has to be a sitting midfielder focused on the defensive positioning side of the game. Mainoo does that, but he'll naturally roam a bit too which is fine as he's the #8. You need the 6 who really focuses on just staying in the middle.

Wharton has better technical qualities with his passing range and press resistance, but he lacks physicality and pace, and would be a huge negative on set pieces without the "potential" of growing that ability that Casemiro has.

Baleba is pretty press resistant himself and has much better energy, physical attributes and can carry the ball decently. He has shown he has the talent on the ball, but not as refined or consistent with his passing and technical qualities as the other. Both very young, but Baleba I think can grow this side of his game more and really have that passing range and be that physical monster.

I think Baleba is the safer option in terms of less likely to fail in that midfield. Wharton could go wrong, and Anderson I think is class but is very much a "instead of Mainoo" guy, as he likes picking up the ball like Mainoo does and moves around rather than sits and focuses on defensive positioning. Also Anderson gives a physicality loss with set pieces which is a big deal with Casemiro and has to be valued. Baleba the only one who could get there with that.

If you look at how much Casemiro joins the attack or attempts to contribute in an attacking sense under Carrick then Anderson fits that role better than Baleba. Baleba would be great but he wouldn’t contribute as much to attacks. It depends on how the coaches and DOF want us to play I guess.

 

[zevun]

If Casemiro is playing because hes 2nd best to Bruno at long balls, then he can play next to Mainoo because hes the 2nd best at long balls? But Mainoo didnt get starts with Bruno in AM. So I dont think this is the reasoning

I think its simply that Bruno and Casemiro are closer to their primes and considered better overall than Mainoo, and same thing with Cunha and Mbeumo. Regardless of any long passing, because Bruno being in the team in some position gives you that. And I dont blame a manager for thinking that way either. Its true, they're all closer to their primes with more experience than him. But hes not going to get it if you never give him chances and Cunha wasnt in great form so I feel like it was a bit too clear that the manager didnt rate him at the moment and wouldnt give him starts. If he'd had a couple of starts in the league and hadnt taken the chance then I'm sure we'd all understand a lot more why he isnt starting.

One of the other things though is that Mainoo should also have been an option as the DM, especially as a sub. Instead Ugarte would always come on and he wasnt playing well, so again it felt wrong that he wasnt first choice sub for both roles in our midfield

I agree with this. Based on this season's form, I don't think anyone can argue that he should be getting into the team ahead of Bruno and Casemiro, back when we were doing the 2-man midfield. But he should definitely be ahead of Ugarte in the pecking order.

In the same way that Mount or Sesko aren't bad players but would be left on the bench at times because of Cunha and Mbeumo.

 

[zevun]

It’s not just that, it’s that we are playing in a way that compliments Mainoo and co. Associative, fluid, players in close proximity looking to combine with each other.

Shocker that your team will be better when you play to their strengths instead of pigeonholing them into a failed system and then throwing a tantrum about how you need a bunch of new players.

Off-topic, but I feel that this is on the board. We will never know if Amorim's system is really a failed system, because we haven't had the chance to see it with the players it needs. We know his Sporting team did a decent job when they played against City and Arsenal in the UCL. The board took a half-assed approach to things. If you choose to bring in a coach who plays a very fixed system, which your players are not suited to, then u need to give him the players he needs. If not, then bring in someone else who can maximise the strengths of your existing players. Taking the middle road was always going to be a disaster. I consider it a minor miracle that we were joint 5th on points and in the hunt for CL places when he left.

 

[Borys]

Very good game. There are very few players who would be able to do what he does and probably all of them are considered very good or at top clubs already. I can think of Guimarães.

Probably his best game under Carrick, the noticeable difference is he was always trying to progress the ball to attack, very few back passes here. (Or maybe the person who created video decided to leave it out like the counter he messed up with his bad pass, but I doubt.)

It's pretty clear he isn't slow from the mark, he actually moves quite fast in first few acres. Problem is lack of top speed, which has not been exposed as we have a competent manager now. He does need an athletic partner though. We'll probably get him one and bet high on Mainoo taking part of Casemiro offensive work next season.

Main concern about his mid to long range passing. Concerns, not worries or complaints. Just concerned for now. His short passing is very good in terms of both choices and execution.

 

[Swedish_Plumber]

You can’t build around them without a proper CDM, so it’s all about Casemiro replacement.

We can. We know their quality. We know what their quality needs to shine. And those guys shouldn’t be leaving this summer so we can build on that quality.

 

[Alemar]

We can. We know their quality. We know what their quality needs to shine. And those guys shouldn’t be leaving this summer so we can build on that quality.

We know their quality, but it still wouldn’t work if there is no proper CDM helping them in the middle. You know well what a quality drop we experience every time Casemiro is subbed off

 

[Rolaholic]

 

[bosnian_red]

If you look at how much Casemiro joins the attack or attempts to contribute in an attacking sense under Carrick then Anderson fits that role better than Baleba. Baleba would be great but he wouldn’t contribute as much to attacks. It depends on how the coaches and DOF want us to play I guess.

Im not sure he actually does. They move as a unit, it's still a midfielder who has to be capable all around, and they'll still have their moments. The vast majority of Casemiro's entries into the box come from set pieces though because he as incredible at attacking headers, truly one of the best in the world at it. Casemiro does contribute with his passing of course and that's why I said Baleba would have to grow that part of his game more, but I think on the balance it's safer to lose a bit creativity while gaining the ability to cover ground and keeping the potential to be strong at set pieces if Baleba develops that part of his game.

I said it in the summer. Everyone was saying we need to replace Casemiro and it's an easy upgrade, but I didn't think we would upgrade on him even if we spent 100m on a midfielder. He's a brilliant player and so well rounded, we'll get a different type of player but we'll inevitably lose some really big qualities. It's just about what things are more important to keep and the bits you gain, are they good enough on balance to outweigh what you lose. It definitely won't be easy to replace him and unlikely to be a short term improvement.

 

[DWelbz19]

So has he signed that contract yet?!...

Was just thinking the same — haven’t heard anything recently. I assume they’ll wrap something up soon now that Amorim has gone and he actually has a manager with a brain?

 

[NZT-One]

Debate the points and not the narratives? Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there's no place for it because sometimes people are not discussing in good faith. I have done it many times myself but it can also come across from a place of insecurity, especially if you're going to conflate and pre-empt things.

Not sure I get your point because to me, it is odd, that you adress me with that valid observation. This time, I reacted to a minor thing another poster said, pointed it out and the other poster said himself that he probably was wrong since he wasn't watching with full attention through every second of the game. This minor thing was taken as if I criticised Mainoos passing, which I didn't.

That's fair if you take that on face value. My interpretation of the overarching points wasn't so much 'he doesn't suit Amorim's setup', it was 'why are you saying/defending this when none of the players look suited in Amorim's setup'? That's on the top of the objective measures where there very was little reason in trying to see things from a badly performing foundation. When the plan is so fundamentally flawed (for all), why are we looking and justifying the details of criticism for a potentially good player that hasn't been platformed or given one to prove otherwise?

Feels like answering those question would derail the thread. What I can tell you is, that many posters who said, that there is a reason for Mainoo not getting much gametime for this or that reason where attacked as if their position was "he is bad, have to sell him". I can tell that applies to my posts and I am fairly sure it applies to at least one other poster as well.

There's a middle ground between thinking 'he doesn't suit the former manager' and 'his overall skills aren't good enough (yet)', which is 'how about you use your players better'. These recent games are not proof Mainoo is the answer, it's proof that actually he does ability to contribute to a performing team, an issue Amorim created and compounded himself with his nonsensical system/management.

See above. I'll DM you for the tricky part since I know it would derail the thread.

I am a critic at times, but I do like Mainoo. But I fear that some may over-hype him. I personally, am still unclear what Mainoo's top skillset is and this will emerge in time. But just passing the ball square is ok, but I expect more than that from a Manchester united midfielder. Mainoo doesn't want to be yet another bright young, decent midfielder.

I agree here. Currently, the combination of Mainoos skillset and physical attributes don't make him an obvious fit for most of the current "roles" midfielders take on. That said, he is young, he has potential to learn and once that happens, he definitely could make one of those roles his own. There is also something to the thing somebody quoted earlier, noting that "we also have to acknowledge the player that he is, not the parts that make him differ from Carrick or Keane or whoever". That is definitely true and I think, we would create a overwhelming consensus on here, when we formulate a club objective to try to create an environment where we would make the best use of Mainoos talent that we can.
That said - while chasing that objective, we also have to monitor the situation and be honest to ourselves - there isn't just one possible scenario, where Mainoo suddenly adds long passing to his arsenal to become the ultimate ball progressor. There is also a chance, that Mainoo develops into some sort of Pogba figure - a player with immense talent that simply doesn't fit the midfield roles most teams make use of. It is still not impossible to find a winning formula in that case but it will require adaptations from the team which I am happy to take but only when we make sure, that the actual level of talent (and headroom) is there to justify such efforts.

There’s nothing to indicate Amorim would have done that anyway. Bruno didn’t seem to fit the profile of what he wanted in a right or left 10, and seemed absolutely set on Bruno playing deeper in MF. If Mainoo was a better long passer I still don’t think Amorim would have started him.

I think, in some situations he moved Bruno further forward and put Mainoo in midfield. I agree, we don't know whether long passing would have made a difference but without that trait, I think, the manager didn't even had the choice to try it. I personally think, Bruno at CM was some sort of compromise with advantages and disadvantages, to me, putting him in one of the 10 spots could have also been such a compromise, also with advantages and disadvantages.

Very good game. There are very few players who would be able to do what he does and probably all of them are considered very good or at top clubs already. I can think of Guimarães.

I am worried, that stuff gets out of proportions. As said, I also think that Mainoo had a good game against Spurs but comparing him to Guimaraes after 65minutes against 10 men Spurs is probably a bit overkill. Also the summary of his game, there is a lot of good stuff in there and I can totally see why this appears borderline magical to United fans since our midfield options have been so bang out of order for so long. But this video doesn't really show anything unheard of. Midfielders who are happy to pass and move, are comfortable moving with the ball, using their body to effectively shield it and are ready to drive forward carrying the ball - thats stuff that has been introduced in most teams years ago. So what Kobbie showed was for sure something, none of our midfield options could provide to that level - but you'll find these sort of players in most if not all other teams as well. And thats not me trying to take something away from him, I am happy that we try to make use of him and he gets gametime, I just think that hyping him up will do him any good.

 

[NZT-One]

Everyone was saying we need to replace Casemiro and it's an easy upgrade, but I didn't think we would upgrade on him even if we spent 100m on a midfielder. He's a brilliant player and so well rounded, we'll get a different type of player but we'll inevitably lose some really big qualities.

That is true but we would also gain on a few fronts. Imagine having a second player with Mainoos comfortableness on the ball, with the workrate of someone like Bruno but with the positional sense of Casemiro, maybe even just 80% of it AND the ability to eat up space like Ugarte does. You are right, when we replace players we will lose something but we will also lose something sitting on our hands trying to hang on to what we have.

 

[NotThatSoph]

So has he signed that contract yet?!...

It would be very risky for him to sign a contract before the summer.

 

[Trigestis]

Lovely performance, but he's still the same in terms of being passive. He takes a bit too long to make a decision or a pass even when the opportunity presents itself often. If he could have Licha teaching him a bit with breaking the lines, he would be an incredible midfielder.

 

[LARulz]

Does anyone have his pass map? I am curious about how many of his passes were "just" ticking things along vs forward/line breaking/switching

Not that it's bad but I am just curious as a couple times I felt he had a pass on into the box for a player but played it safe

 

[Walters_19_MuFc]

Agreed. He's got higher levels to go and I expect that from him.

Doesn't mean we shouldn't detract from his good to solid performances that he's had so far since being back in the team just for agendas.

Of course not. He's only had 4 games on the bounce. It'll need a lot more than that for his to get back to his best. We need to remember that this is a young lad who had all the confidence knocked out of him by a manager who didnt know what he was doing. Once that confidence comss back, we'll start to see the real Kobbie on display.

 

[goldenboy]

It would be very risky for him to sign a contract before the summer.

After the Amorim nonsense, United will not bring in another manager who won't play 433.

 

[Cloudface]

After the Amorim nonsense, United will not bring in another manager who won't play 433.

We are playing 4-4-2 at the minute so I don't think the formations will be an issue. Just a manager who wants shorter spaces between players rather than swinging for big open transitional play.

 

[MyOnlySolskjaer]

He's got that Ander Herrera half turn, which is great to watch.

 

[Zumbi]

I think, in some situations he moved Bruno further forward and put Mainoo in midfield. I agree, we don't know whether long passing would have made a difference but without that trait, I think, the manager didn't even had the choice to try it. I personally think, Bruno at CM was some sort of compromise with advantages and disadvantages, to me, putting him in one of the 10 spots could have also been such a compromise, also with advantages and disadvantages.

He could have tried it though. That’s the issue. He didn’t seem willing to do anything that didn’t fit within his very rigid idea of how his system had to work, despite it not working.

And he had plenty of opportunities to do the latter, yet generally didn’t. So it’s pretty clear to see where he stood on this question.

 

[Oscar Bonavena]

I wonder in a perverted sort of way if Mainoo's year on the bench under Amorim will make him a stronger character and better player in the long run.

He's had a meteoric rise. Straight into the United team at 18, quickly into the England squad and then starting a Euros final.

You could forgive him for thinking it was easy! The year under Amorim was the first setback of his career. Hopefully it's given him an appreciation of how fickle a professional football career can be, and made him determined that no manager is ever going to bench him again.

Not that I'm giving Amorim any praise for what he did.....!

 

[IrishRedDevil]

I think Baleba or Wharton would work, and then depends what you prioritize.

Has to be a sitting midfielder focused on the defensive positioning side of the game. Mainoo does that, but he'll naturally roam a bit too which is fine as he's the #8. You need the 6 who really focuses on just staying in the middle.

Wharton has better technical qualities with his passing range and press resistance, but he lacks physicality and pace, and would be a huge negative on set pieces without the "potential" of growing that ability that Casemiro has.

Baleba is pretty press resistant himself and has much better energy, physical attributes and can carry the ball decently. He has shown he has the talent on the ball, but not as refined or consistent with his passing and technical qualities as the other. Both very young, but Baleba I think can grow this side of his game more and really have that passing range and be that physical monster.

I think Baleba is the safer option in terms of less likely to fail in that midfield. Wharton could go wrong, and Anderson I think is class but is very much a "instead of Mainoo" guy, as he likes picking up the ball like Mainoo does and moves around rather than sits and focuses on defensive positioning. Also Anderson gives a physicality loss with set pieces which is a big deal with Casemiro and has to be valued. Baleba the only one who could get there with that.

Good post.
Although I am concerned about Baleba’s lack of positional sense.

 

[Rolaholic]

 

[Rolaholic]

 

[Berggy20913]

Everyone sees it but the Caf experts who can’t admit they were wrong. I mean there’s match highlights in this thread and he’s playing progressive passes all over those highlights, but actual Man Utd fans watch the highlights and say he’s not progressive enough. This thread has turned into the twilight zone.

 

[appleman]

Everyone sees it but the Caf experts who can’t admit they were wrong. I mean there’s match highlights in this thread and he’s playing progressive passes all over those highlights, but actual Man Utd fans watch the highlights and say he’s not progressive enough. This thread has turned into the twilight zone.

(Tbf not sure if they're all the same people but) all these people frustrated that the team can't string a few passes together without losing the ball in midfield.
Then you have Mainoo whose main skills are short passes and press resistance and a lot of the response is, "what else you got?"

 

[bosnian_red]

Good post.
Although I am concerned about Baleba’s lack of positional sense.

He's young and not the finished product. Positional sense especially and understanding game situations is something that comes with lots of experience, and you can't artificially make a 21 year old have the brain of a 28 year old. Holding midfield is the position where calmness and game intelligence, positioning etc are the most important attributes and that just takes time. Wouldn't rule out any of them getting it but would be shocked if they had it already. And that's very normal.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

He should get the 16 shirt next season. Amad the number 7

 

[Berggy20913]

(Tbf not sure if they're all the same people but) all these people frustrated that the team can't string a few passes together without losing the ball in midfield.
Then you have Mainoo whose main skills are short passes and press resistance and a lot of the response is, "what else you got?"

Which we’ve been doing a lot better now with the only difference in the players on the pitch from when we were shite being him and Licha. Must be a coincidence. I haven’t seen anyone mention his assist so I imagine it’s lost on them that that pass actually took some skill to execute the way he did.

 

[Brazilian_Ronaldo_9]

That is true but we would also gain on a few fronts. Imagine having a second player with Mainoos comfortableness on the ball, with the workrate of someone like Bruno but with the positional sense of Casemiro, maybe even just 80% of it AND the ability to eat up space like Ugarte does. You are right, when we replace players we will lose something but we will also lose something sitting on our hands trying to hang on to what we have.

What you’ve described is a world class midfielder, think we’ll struggle to get one unless we hit the jackpot.

 

[Real Name]

Playing like a true box to box midfielder, gets better and better each game, keeping it simple, letting the game go, making flicks and short passes, working nicely in a duet with Casemiro. Onwards and upwards!

 

[Rolaholic]

 

[Grande]

Lovely performance, but he's still the same in terms of being passive. He takes a bit too long to make a decision or a pass even when the opportunity presents itself often. If he could have Licha teaching him a bit with breaking the lines, he would be an incredible midfielder.

Talking about last year, I agree. Talking about these last five or six games, I don’t agree. I think he is much more activein his choices with the ball (also without it). He doesn’t go the Bruno way in terms of Hollywood passes, but he has been changing up nicely between short passes keeping circulation, holding onto the ball to see were attack is best started, short inciscional passes through the lines (like his assist to Cunha), and more ambitiouspasses or dribles to create overloads. Everything isn’t perfect, but he seems very much more active in his decision making to my eyes.

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

The next Dele Alli, right? Some terrible takes here writing him off only a year ago that look pretty foolish now.

Jesus, that's a bad take. People really went in hard on Mainoo to justify backing Amorim for so long. It was sad to see our manager turn so many fans against our best academy talent in years.

 

[VP89]

It was against 10 men so I don't put too much stock in this. But he's definitely shown recently that he's capable of playing with Bruno and Casemiro. Something Amorim had no clue about.

 

[Mike Smalling]

It's going to be interesting to see if Mainoo can slowly add aspects to his game. Right now he is keeping it fairly simple and putting in really good performances in terms of the basics of CM play. Still think his long passing can be improved, and it would also be amazing if he became a threat from range. Or more of a goalthreat in general.

Still only 20, so there should be a lot of room to grow.

 

[Attila]

I wonder how Elliot Anderson, Wharton and Tonali were doing at 20. All midfielders with asking prices of 100m now

Amorim was crazy for trying to get rid of Mainoo

 

[RedSky]

I'd be a little wary of our fans hyping Mainoo up again. The lad obviously has talent but at the same time what we're seeing is a classic example of a vexed player proving the previous Manager wrong. But that's only going to be a short term boost, if he continues this form through the remainder of the season then he'll have proved his point.

The talk of him going to the World Cup is madness. It's been four games. Give the lad some space to breathe.

 

[Olecurls99]

I wonder how Elliot Anderson, Wharton and Tonali were doing at 20. All midfielders with asking prices of 100m now

Amorim was crazy for trying to get rid of Mainoo

Can our scouting department come up with a cheaper alternative to these 3? Surely there are other midfielders out there with their attributes

 

[Gabriel Djemba-Bebe]

I'd be a little wary of our fans hyping Mainoo up again. The lad obviously has talent but at the same time what we're seeing is a classic example of a vexed player proving the previous Manager wrong. But that's only going to be a short term boost, if he continues this form through the remainder of the season then he'll have proved his point.

The talk of him going to the World Cup is madness. It's been four games. Give the lad some space to breathe.

I don't think it's that mad. He was a starter for England a couple of months before Amorim arrived at United.