Kobbie Mainoo

I think I'll trust the coaches for once that if he is good enough he will play. We tend to overhype our youth players. Maybe other than Greenwood or Amad most of the youth players that we hyped about never turn out to meet expectations.

It could also that he isn't playing is be because he hasn't sign that extension.
 
Don't most people here generally have a negative opinion on Southgate? And what did Mainoo do at the Euros? Did he score any goals or provide any assists?

Just not sure why we should put so much stock in that tournament and use it as a stick to beat Amorim with.
 
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RedEarth said:
Baffles (and annoys) me that anyone could think selling Kobbie would be anything but a tragedy for the club. He's 20 years old FFS! He's already got us the winner in an FA Cup Final against prime City. He's a quality player. Comparing him to Scholes is stupid, as he's being compared to Peak Scholes, not the one at this age. At 20, Scholes had only just broken into the first team, and that in the League Cup first. He didn't become first choice until 22 or so, after Eric had left, and even then it wasn't in CM but further forward. At 19, he also had some growing pains. He couldn't last a full match due to his asthma that needed managing. When I first saw Scholes play live, he must have been 19... he was playing against Leeds. He only came on at half time*, he wasn't even a starter - and this was for the Reserves!

We need some patience with Kobbie. He's a kid, and a high quality one. He should outlast Amorim at United, no matter what the next season or three brings. We haven't had a midfielder that can manage repeated 5 or 10 yard passes since Carrick, and he is one of them. He guards the ball rather than giving it away cheaply. That is what a modern CM needs to be able to do, and we don't have any others at the moment. If he doesn't become a world-class footballer at United, he'll do it somewhere else.

*admittedly, he ran the show second half, looked fantastic... the point still stands!
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Yes, a tragedy... Christ, get a grip! You'd think it's Lamine Yamal being talked about here. The chance is much higher he is instead another in a long line of academy graduates that didn't measure up to their original hype and in reality isn't all that. This fanbase has a tendency to massively overrate youth players. Yes, he is the only one that can shield a ball reasonably well in this team, but that's because this club has refused to buy a midfielder that can do that for a very long time. Not because of some unique quality he possesses. His passing range and physicality remain poor and unfit for a Premier League midfielder. Which is what I suspect the coaches can see as well. Now, I'm not saying he is shit and will never come good. He has potential to be starter, if he can address the deficiencies in his game. And I'd love to see that. But if he is sold for a significant sum and that allows the club to bring players that better fit the team, that's all good as well. So what if he is 20? Should United wait until he has proven beyond any doubt he actually isn't as good and sell him for nothing? This has been the mistake of this club for the last decade - holding onto players until they lose all value and walk for free.
 
If we sell Mainoo over the next 12 months, we may aswell close the gates to Carrington for our academy sides until Amorim leaves and sell 95% of the players currently in those sides for PSR purposes.

There's zero chance of anyone making it with the current manager and formation in place.
 
RedStarUnited said:
The one position he can play in this team is taken up by the captain.
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Very true, also in some respects, his close control, quick turning, over short distance, etc. is better. However, Kobbie's overall speed and stamina has yet to develop, and probably will do... at another club.
 
This thread is abit kneejerk based on the fact he didn’t play in the first game of the season. He didn’t have a great season last time out but was much better in pre-season and looks physically far more developed. He will play plenty of minutes this season and if he takes his chance will be first choice. Think it’s abit early to panic based on a poor second season and the first game of the next!
 
To be honest I think watching how Bruno played against Arsenal, you could probably put Mainoo in next to him. It wouldn't be any worse than Ugarte.
 
Injuries, Afcon, rotation (Bruno playing as 10 sometimes), suspensions... Mainoo will get his minutes, don't worry.
 
T00lsh3d said:
Maybe he just hasn’t got it genetically to push his strength/speed/stamina any further than it already is? Everyone’s got a finite limit, maybe his is just surprisingly low
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Not sure how it "works" - i'll leave that to the medical professionals, trainers etc. on here but speaking purely anecdotal here....I appointed a personal trainer and also joined crossfit in my mid to late 20's as my then wife (no ex-wife) had the trainer when we got married. I was always fairly "fast" and have always been quite skinny/scrawny most of life.

Working with the PT and doign crossfit - for the first time in my life i built quite a bit of muscle (and a lot of lean muscle) and was extremely fit. We worked a lot on explosive power and i can tell you my acceleration over 30-40 meters improved drastically. But this was obviously "me" - someone very skinny, who never really gym'd in his life, all of a sudden picking up a decent amount of muscle mass...

Now I know these guys are all professional athletes and their bodies are already extremely finely tuned - almost at their "peak/best", but I really can't think that it won't be possible for Mainoo to improve his acceleration/speed?

Whether it's suddenly going to turn him into a Baleba type pace merchant - is obviously wishful thinking, but I'm sure he can improve. I guess where my uninformed brain gets stuck is that with all our supposed state of the art facilities and medical specialists....this is surely top of mind, so who knows - maybe I'm wrong and it can't really be altered to a significant enough degree to make a difference on the pitch.

@Pogue Mahone maybe you and a few others could comment.
 
KStandBarmyArmy1993 said:
If we sell Mainoo over the next 12 months, we may aswell close the gates to Carrington for our academy sides until Amorim leaves and sell 95% of the players currently in those sides for PSR purposes.

There's zero chance of anyone making it with the current manager and formation in place.
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Because he didn't play in the opening game, means Amorim doesn't like to play academy players?

I dont know how fans work this out, there is zero chance an academy player makes it? I mean seriously?
 
He didn't do enough on preseason or last year to warrant starting games. Plays far too safe and his lack of acceleration is concerning.
 
Ish said:
Not sure how it "works" - i'll leave that to the medical professionals, trainers etc. on here but speaking purely anecdotal here....I appointed a personal trainer and also joined crossfit in my mid to late 20's as my then wife (no ex-wife) had the trainer when we got married. I was always fairly "fast" and have always been quite skinny/scrawny most of life.

Working with the PT and doign crossfit - for the first time in my life i built quite a bit of muscle (and a lot of lean muscle) and was extremely fit. We worked a lot on explosive power and i can tell you my acceleration over 30-40 meters improved drastically. But this was obviously "me" - someone very skinny, who never really gym'd in his life, all of a sudden picking up a decent amount of muscle mass...

Now I know these guys are all professional athletes and their bodies are already extremely finely tuned - almost at their "peak/best", but I really can't think that it won't be possible for Mainoo to improve his acceleration/speed?

Whether it's suddenly going to turn him into a Baleba type pace merchant - is obviously wishful thinking, but I'm sure he can improve. I guess where my uninformed brain gets stuck is that with all our supposed state of the art facilities and medical specialists....this is surely top of mind, so who knows - maybe I'm wrong and it can't really be altered to a significant enough degree to make a difference on the pitch.

@Pogue Mahone maybe you and a few others could comment.
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This is exactly the point though mate, he’ll have had elite level strength and conditioning training for years.

What limited you was your lack of training. When you trained, you improved. He’ll have been training at the highest level for years, that’s not his limiting factor - hence me suggesting he’s reached his genetic ceiling
 
I think for himself he should probably seek playing elsewhere, I don't think it'll ever work for him in a 2 and this manager will never change, in a Barcelona type 3 he'd do well.

He is still young but I don't see him getting the minutes this year he needs at his age to progress because we just won't have the games.

I've also thought from the moment the manager came he didn't rate him and didn't know how to use him, playing him as a false 9 for instance was setting him up to fail
 
T00lsh3d said:
This is exactly the point though mate, he’ll have had elite level strength and conditioning training for years.

What limited you was your lack of training. When you trained, you improved. He’ll have been training at the highest level for years, that’s not his limiting factor - hence me suggesting he’s reached his genetic ceiling
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Yeah, it makes sense, what you're saying and it's sort of what I (think I!) concluded as i typed my previous post as well :lol:

I definitely benefited from no training, and a lack of muscles up to the point i joined with a PT. These athletes don't lack either, so I'd guess we're talking perhaps marginal improvements at best.
 
Because Bruno is an automatic starter (which he really shouldn't be), all of our midfielders are fighting for just one spot in Amorim's 2-man midfield system.

Mainoo would get to play and probably thrive and develop in a 3-man midfield.

Not Mainoo's fault. He is not a natural 6.
Just as much as Bruno is not a natural 8.
Sell Bruno, bring in Baleba and Wharton, and those two could play alongside Mainoo. It would be one hell of a midfield trio.

But alas, Bruno and Amorim's system means that whoever is the best defensive fit for any said match, will play. And that is not Mainoo.

Amorim seems hell bent on his 2-man midfield. And he, the club and a vast majority of fans are too scared to see realize much we would improve without Bruno playing every minute of every match.
 
Personally I don’t see it as a wider issue with Amorim trusting the Academy. He had a good record with bringing through Academy players at Sporting from what I understand and I think if there are players he thinks can cope with the requirements he wants and the physical demands of the league, he’ll use them.

However (rightly or wrongly), I do have a hunch he doesn’t particularly rate Mainoo at this point.
 
aeh1991 said:
Injuries, Afcon, rotation (Bruno playing as 10 sometimes), suspensions... Mainoo will get his minutes, don't worry.
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And the obvious point, the better he plays, the more he'll play. Hopefully a resurgent United will mean a resurgent Mainoo. And if he doesn't make it, it'll be a shame, but he will bring in a bit of cash next summer to put toward a better suited CM or Keeper. This year should decide his future with the club.
 
ThanksBoss26 said:
Personally I don’t see it as a wider issue with Amorim trusting the Academy. He had a good record with bringing through Academy players at Sporting from what I understand and I think if there are players he thinks can cope with the requirements he wants and the physical demands of the league, he’ll use them.

However (rightly or wrongly), I do have a hunch he doesn’t particularly rate Mainoo at this point.
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Don't you think there's a reason for that though? As in Mainoo isn't athletic enough. I really want him to succeed, not just because he's a MU academy player, but also because he does seem like a pretty good and silky player on the ball. But he's lack of athleticism is hurting him and us.
 
He'll get his chances - just like how Amorim realised that he was using Casemiro "wrong" when he first arrived, there'll also be a point at which he will figure out how to get more out of Mainoo (though it may only come after the Bruno at CM chapter closes, either by him retiring/leaving the club, or it turns out that he really can't play there).

I would hope that Mainoo's lack of athleticism at this point is perhaps a symptom of being overplayed in his first season under EtH, and needing plenty of recovery time in a packed playing schedule which kept him out of the gym. The lad's still young, and has time to develop physically.
 
At this point he's firmly behind Bruno for the #8 spot. Bruno is basically super human and can play full 90s every week. So the only hope for him is Bruno being rested or Bruno moving to #10. I think Bruno at #10 is going to be somewhat rare given how well Mount is doing there and given Amad can also play there.

I agree he might get some games during AFCON, some cup games, some 60th min substitutions for either Bruno / one of the #10s resulting in Mainoo coming on.

Overall maybe he gets ~1200 - 1500 mins this season? I'm not sure how that impacts his development, it might be good or might be bad.
 
JBG said:
Don't you think there's a reason for that though? As in Mainoo isn't athletic enough. I really want him to succeed, not just because he's a MU academy player, but also because he does seem like a pretty good and silky player on the ball. But he's lack of athleticism is hurting him and us.
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I think it’s most likely something along those lines and the physicality element, yes.
 
ThanksBoss26 said:
Personally I don’t see it as a wider issue with Amorim trusting the Academy. He had a good record with bringing through Academy players at Sporting from what I understand and I think if there are players he thinks can cope with the requirements he wants and the physical demands of the league, he’ll use them.

However (rightly or wrongly), I do have a hunch he doesn’t particularly rate Mainoo at this point.
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Kinda obvious. Just like he doesn't rate Ugarte also. He even mentioned about Mount can play in midfield.

But who knows. Perhaps Mainoo will have Nani's like breakthrough that can happen any time, and we'll set for 5-10 years there.
 
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Honestly why is our midfield so bad?
Is an Ugarte Mainoo midfield really that bad? I get its not elite or world class but on paper i dont see any particularly compelling reasons why it wouldn't work. Maybe its the wider level of physicality in the team? Like having Bruno, Amad, Garnacho, Martinez around them doesn't help and they dont do enough to compensate?
As backups for the 2 positions I think we need to stick with both. Ugarte has only been here a year. I dont think a midfield 2 is ideal for Mainoo but hes so bloody talented that i think he'll be better in the 2 positions than an awful lot of players and his game elsewhere will benefit from the time learning those roles.
Casemiro is gone in a year and buying a replacement for the role Bruno is playing is going to create a headache, beyond the headache that the 10 positions are going to create. I dont see a player on the market who's a clear and obvious immediate upgrade. The likes of Wharton who might be would probably benefit from another year at Palace and i frankly doubt Palace will sell outside of an absolutely extortionate premium being paid.
 
RedEarth said:
Baffles (and annoys) me that anyone could think selling Kobbie would be anything but a tragedy for the club. He's 20 years old FFS! He's already got us the winner in an FA Cup Final against prime City. He's a quality player. Comparing him to Scholes is stupid, as he's being compared to Peak Scholes, not the one at this age. At 20, Scholes had only just broken into the first team, and that in the League Cup first. He didn't become first choice until 22 or so, after Eric had left, and even then it wasn't in CM but further forward. At 19, he also had some growing pains. He couldn't last a full match due to his asthma that needed managing. When I first saw Scholes play live, he must have been 19... he was playing against Leeds. He only came on at half time*, he wasn't even a starter - and this was for the Reserves!

We need some patience with Kobbie. He's a kid, and a high quality one. He should outlast Amorim at United, no matter what the next season or three brings. We haven't had a midfielder that can manage repeated 5 or 10 yard passes since Carrick, and he is one of them. He guards the ball rather than giving it away cheaply. That is what a modern CM needs to be able to do, and we don't have any others at the moment. If he doesn't become a world-class footballer at United, he'll do it somewhere else.

*admittedly, he ran the show second half, looked fantastic... the point still stands!
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I don’t think it’s guaranteed he’ll become a world beater (he might though).

Apart from that, great post. Good to bring in some perspective

I hope Amorim will not neglect him and put effort in developing him further and giving him sufficient playtime
 
Ish said:
Yeah, it makes sense, what you're saying and it's sort of what I (think I!) concluded as i typed my previous post as well :lol:

I definitely benefited from no training, and a lack of muscles up to the point i joined with a PT. These athletes don't lack either, so I'd guess we're talking perhaps marginal improvements at best.
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i think there’s a couple of factors here.

First of all, how muscles and training work. there’s 2 types of muscles: short twitch and fast twitch. People with mostly short twitch are the sprinter types, very explosive and pacey. Long twitched people are more durable, I guess that’s what people call ‘the engines’.

Now if you look at him, I think he’s not super explosive and his endurance is far from great. Now if you want to really improve one of these aspects, it would go at the expense of the other. In his case, as neither are great, that somewhat limits his potential.

Having said that, there’s two things to remember:

- he’s only 20, his endurance and explosiveness will both still improve, maybe 5-10% over the upcoming 5 years.

- secondly and more importantly, he may have had great trainers and experts on fitness around him for the last several years, that doesn’t say everything. You often see players who get away with much just with their talent. But after several years they don’t seem to fulfill their potential. Such players need to see the light and understand they simply need to work harder. Following a training program isn’t good enough, you have to work your ass off, have to be willing to dig deep (at the right moments and with moderation). Players like that are able to really break through and reach the next level.
Wijnaldum is a typical example of that. Great as a teen and then stalled. Once he really started putting in a shift, he got to a level where few had seen him end up.

So, for Mainoo, he can for sure still improve, for sure with time and even more if he’s willing to put in the extra mile. I doubt he’ll end up like a prime Kante, but I’m convinced he’s got enough potential to not let stamina or explosiveness be a factor that will limit him in his career
 
Why does everyone think he's not athletic?

In the games he has done well for us, he's been awesome - winning the ball, driving forward and a few vital goals; I get his performances haven't been great over the last year, but who did consistently perform, just Bruno?

In a season when so many senior players massively underperformed and a few injuries, a dip is expected. I'm fairly confident he'll perform to a good standard this year.
 
Marvin-ator said:
Why does everyone think he's not athletic?

In the games he has done well for us, he's been awesome - winning the ball, driving forward and a few vital goals; I get his performances haven't been great over the last year, but who did consistently perform, just Bruno?

In a season when so many senior players massively underperformed and a few injuries, a dip is expected. I'm fairly confident he'll perform to a good standard this year.
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He's slow and has the stamina of a pug.
 
I think its ok if he is not starting every week but getting decent minutes. He is only 20. He has time to improve his stamina / athleticism and improve other aspects of his game (long passing)

He can take Bruno's spot in 1-2 years time.
 
The real test will be how badly Bruno has to play before Kobbie doesn't get a chance in that role. Personally I'd already feel happier with Kobbie in the deep role rather than Bruno, because he's so much less likely to do an absolutely idiotic thing and cost us a goal. Even if it's only for 60 minutes.
 
Will be looking out for him on fotmob. It'll be interesting to see how his physical stats tracks against his peers in the team as well as compared with the top prospects we're linked with.
 
Bwuk said:
To be honest I think watching how Bruno played against Arsenal, you could probably put Mainoo in next to him. It wouldn't be any worse than Ugarte.
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Yes it would, Ugarte is our 'put your foot-in'/'bite yer legs' guy, every team needs at least one; he is ours and its amazing how many 'one-on-one' tackles he does win legally. Ugarte will always collect a few yellow cards, every season and at least one, one-match suspension.

It is true Manuel is no where near Mainoo for being creative, etc., but he is our 'ball winner' in the 'close encounter' situations.... sometimes our 'reducer' too!

At the moment we have no one who can do a more successful 'put your foot in' party piece than Ugarte. Sadley, Mainoo's lack of speed/stamina, lets him down and gives others preference, at least with this manager.
 
Mainoo is barely 20 years of age, he is a puppy still learning his trade.
He will get plenty of minutes this season, and longer term, will have every opportunity to seal a first team place.
Stop those knees from jerking!
 
Ikon said:
Mainoo is barely 20 years of age, he is a puppy still learning his trade.
He will get plenty of minutes this season, and longer term, will have every opportunity to seal a first team place.
Stop those knees from jerking!
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He should be happy that we couldn't get Baleba this season.
 
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