Kobe Bryant - What’s his legacy?

[sullydnl]

No shit, that's why she brought a rape case against him. Look at the bolded below. Does that sound like someone who believed he raped her?

Well according to an earlier post in this thread she may have accused him because she was "clout chasing". Unfortunately not everyone takes it as read that the rape accusation was made in good faith.

Kobe may well have believed he didn't rape her. Many rapists don't accept they committed rape, so it wouldn't be particularly unusual. What he publicly admitted to was having sex with someone who didn't want that sex to happen though. Even if people don't want to make the (at best) extremely short leap between accepting that happened and accepting that he committed rape, it's still more than enough in and of itself to be a pertinent discussion point.

 

[adexkola]

He wasn’t just accused, he admitted it.

No he didn't. He said, "I now understand how she feels how she feels".

Are people being deliberately dense in thinking a highly lawyered statement would admit to rape?

What’s interesting to me is that he released a statement in 2003 accepting that she believed she was raped but he believed that to be false. In the modern climate isn’t that accepted as rape, as in its not really for him to decide if it was consensual?

I‘d guess that no lawyer would agree to such a statement today because it wouldn’t wash in the court of public opinion.

There is literally a legal definition of rape. It's not up to him, the same way it's not up to her, to decide whether rape occurred. That gets determined through a court sifting through the facts, through cross examination, through all of that. It's not a perfect process, the solution is not to just throw that out of the window (as proponents of "the court of public opinion" would have you believe)

 

[Eboue]

Arent you an expert on that?

Are you ever going to actually discuss the case or Kobe's legacy or just make sniping comments?

 

[Eboue]

Do you understand what reassess means? What about attention?

Are you 12 years old? Before we continue I want to make sure you dont still have posters on your bedroom wall of sports stars

 

[Ban]

Are you ever going to actually discuss the case or Kobe's legacy or just make sniping comments?

Oh I see, your post to @Peyroteo was 'discussing the case of Kobe's legacy', I get it.

 

[HTG]

No he didn't. He said, "I now understand how she feels how she feels".

Are people being deliberately dense in thinking a highly lawyered statement would admit to rape?





There is literally a legal definition of rape. It's not up to him, the same way it's not up to her, to decide whether rape occurred. That gets determined through a court sifting through the facts, through cross examination, through all of that. It's not a perfect process, the solution is not to just throw that out of the window (as proponents of "the court of public opinion" would have you believe)

Are you so dense as not to see how this is a lawyered admission of rape? That’s as close as you can get to admitting it, without any legal repercussions. If even he can see how she feels like this, it’s obviously rape. Without a doubt. Read the statements, read the apology and then explain to me how he’s not guilty. And not only is he guilty, the way he dealt with it, was despicable. He ruined that woman’s life twice. First by raping her and then by having his lawyers publicly smear her.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

No he didn't. He said, "I now understand how she feels how she feels".

Are people being deliberately dense in thinking a highly lawyered statement would admit to rape?





There is literally a legal definition of rape. It's not up to him, the same way it's not up to her, to decide whether rape occurred. That gets determined through a court sifting through the facts, through cross examination, through all of that. It's not a perfect process, the solution is not to just throw that out of the window (as proponents of "the court of public opinion" would have you believe)

I realise that but to modern eyes it’s an exceptionally poor statement to agree to. A woman with injuries consistent with rape who believed she was raped, as admitted by the defendant. I doubt any lawyer worth their salt would agree to such an admission these days.

 

[Eboue]

Oh I see, your post to @Peyroteo was 'discussing the case of Kobe's legacy', I get it.

I was quoting the exact post he made exactly above. If you cant follow the conversation, just bow out.

 

[ivaldo]

Are you ever going to actually discuss the case or Kobe's legacy or just make sniping comments?

Are you ever going to actually respond to me now you've realised your sniping comment was accusing me of something I didn't actually say?

I was quoting the exact post he made exactly above. If you cant follow the conversation, just bow out.

The hypocrisy.

 

[UweBein]

https://www.thedailybeast.com/kobe-...ce-the-accusers-story-and-the-half-confession

He was a rapist

I tend to think the same way. Though I would rather say, „i think he was a rapist“

People are just throwing the term rapist about very loosely. He was accused and the prosecution ultimately knew they could not convict him beyond reasonable doubt, does that not matter anymore?

It matters for the prosecutors. There is something called „free speech“ for members of the public.

Thought experiment: Given that both Kobe and CR7 were famously involved in widely publicized sexual assault cases - would, if god forbid something happened to Ronnie - anyone here also suggest his legacy was that he was a rapist ? Or would he instead be remembered a great footballer with a checkered personal life ?

It tainted his legacy in my opinion, yes indeed.

It depends on the information available. OJ is a murderer, who happened to be good at sports. He wasn’t sentenced.
Michael Jackson was a pedophile who was good at music. He was never sentenced.
Kobe, according to everything I know, was a rapist who was good at sports.
Klaus Kinski, an actor who’s work I enjoy a lot, was a rapist who happened to be a good actor.

If I can’t be sure, I’ll just keep away from calling said person anything. But if I can be sure and those examples I gave are sure things, these people are all murderers/rapists first.

Again, we can not be sure. But you got to be oblivious to Life if you have not realized by now that you can be a bad guy and get away with murder or rape - especially if you are rich. It does not even affect your reputation that much - see Michael Jackson, JFK, DSK etc.

 

[oates]

Are people being deliberately dense in thinking a highly lawyered statement would admit to rape?

Can't help feeling there's something wrong with this statement. It's like someone admitting that it's the closest you'll ever get to an admission of guilt as you'll get whilst having expensive lawyers and PR team perhaps.

 

[Eboue]

Are you ever going to actually respond to me now you've realised your sniping comment was accusing me of something I didn't actually say?

Point me to the post. I've got plenty of alerts so I might have missed it.

 

[adexkola]

Well according to an earlier post in this thread she may have accused him because she was "clout chasing". Unfortunately not everyone takes it as read that the rape accusation was made in good faith.

Kobe may well have believed he didn't rape her. Many rapists don't accept they committed rape, so it wouldn't be particularly unusual. What he publicly admitted to was having sex with someone who didn't want that sex to happen though. Even if people don't want to make the (at best) extremely short leap between accepting that happened and accepting that he committed rape, it's still more than enough in and of itself to be a pertinent discussion point.

I didn't make that statement. I don't know what happened and it would be unfair to turn around and accuse her of having nefarious objectives.

The bolded is literally rape. He admitted to having consensual sex with someone. He acknowledges she feels it wasn't, but still doesn't admit guilt. There isn't enough there for me to conclude he raped her certainly.

Are you so dense as not to see how this is a lawyered admission of rape? That’s as close as you can get to admitting it, without any legal repercussions. If even he can see how she feels like this, it’s obviously rape. Without a doubt. Read the statements, read the apology and then explain to me how he’s not guilty. And not only is he guilty, the way he dealt with it, was despicable. He ruined that woman’s life twice. First by raping her and then by having his lawyers publicly smear her.

Ah, so that's what you think, your posts make more sense., have a nice day.

 

[ivaldo]

Point me to the post. I've got plenty of alerts so I might have missed it.

How convenient you happen to miss that one.

#190.

 

[adexkola]

Can't help feeling there's something wrong with this statement. It's like someone admitting that it's the closest you'll ever get to an admission of guilt as you'll get whilst having expensive lawyers and PR team perhaps.

There is an enshrined right to not self-incriminate yourself. Generally, your lawyers would rather the prosecution use evidence and other tools to determine your guilt.

Again, it's hard to imagine good defense lawyers throwing that concept to the wind. Especially considering the criminal case collapsed. Why would he turn around and say, "oh yeah, I did that shit" after the fact?

 

[Peyroteo]

Are you 12 years old? Before we continue I want to make sure you dont still have posters on your bedroom wall of sports stars

Maybe if I was 12 and had a sports star poster on my bedroom wall I'd be closer to the same level of patheticness as someone who comes on a football forum to make edgy sarcastic comments and argue without even a small trace of education and respect towards others in order to get the attention he craves but doesn't get outside of the internet.

 

[Eboue]

How convenient you happen to miss that one.

#190.

I just looked and it seems like a pointless argument, even by internet forum standards. Feel free to post more green smilies if it makes you feel better though.

 

[Eboue]

Maybe if I was 12 and had a sports star poster on my bedroom wall I'd be closer to the same level of patheticness as someone who comes on a football forum to make edgy sarcastic comments and argue without even a small trace of education and respect towards others in order to get the attention he craves but doesn't get outside of the internet.

"edgy" is just the word used by people who dont want to examine their heroes too critically, lest they find something they dont like

 

[mu4c_20le]

People are just throwing the term rapist about very loosely. He was accused and the prosecution ultimately knew they could not convict him beyond reasonable doubt, does that not matter anymore?

I tend to think the same way. Though I would rather say, „i think he was a rapist“

It matters for the prosecutors. There is something called „free speech“ for members of the public.

It tainted his legacy in my opinion, yes indeed.

Also because he practically admitted it. It's going to hang over his legacy forever, but for me, at least he manned up to it, instead of dragging it through the courts and make it really ugly for the accuser.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

My $0.02 of the situation, since I replied to @Conor in the other thread to open another thread:

As someone who’s never sit down to watch a basketball game, but vaguely aware of KB’s achievements and status in the sporting world at large, I’d say I have no particular feelings towards the man. I found out about the rape case years after the incident watching a Chappelle stand up special. IMO, at best it was a hookup gone wrong when consent was withdrawn and he didn’t listen, which still made him a rapist and a pretty awful human being, but not exactly unique and in fact quite common of the red blooded athlete types, and at worst he straight up violently raped her and that made him a monster.

With that said, the man was clearly more than just a sporting icon for a lot of people and given the circumstances as two young teenagers also lost their lives, I think it’s minimum decorum to separate the discussion and leave the other thread for expressing condolences.

 

[cafecillos]

What's the difference between one of the parts feeling sex is not consensual and it actually not being consensual?

 

[adexkola]

What's the difference between one of the parts feeling sex is not consensual and it actually not being consensual?

The devil would lie in the details, which are not available to the public.

 

[Eboue]

What's the difference between one of the parts feeling sex is not consensual and it actually not being consensual?

She tried to leave several times and every time she did he choked her and prevented her from doing so.

 

[oates]

There is an enshrined right to not self-incriminate yourself. Generally, your lawyers would rather the prosecution use evidence and other tools to determine your guilt.

Again, it's hard to imagine good defense lawyers throwing that concept to the wind. Especially considering the criminal case collapsed. Why would he turn around and say, "oh yeah, I did that shit" after the fact?

I don't disagree with any of that, I think that's my understanding of Justice in America and partly the differences between the justice you'll face as a rich person contrasted with that of someone who hasn't the funds but relies on a public prosecutor.

There's still something wrong with it all to my mind I'm afraid. American Justice and ours too to an extent now has become not a search for truth and justice but combat of the most highly trained gladiator. Public Prosecutors, well they don't have access to highly paid and qualified PR teams.

It was kept out of Criminal Court, reparations were paid, admissions of a satisfactory nature were made but it allows his fans to say he wasn't guilty along with others aims. The forensic evidence to me seemed overwhelming but a court never got to see it, he didn't need to say a word in that case either.

 

[ivaldo]

I just looked and it seems like a pointless argument, even by internet forum standards. Feel free to post more green smilies if it makes you feel better though.

What a wonderful way to say you fecked up and didn't want to admit you had done so. The irony of course, was it was in the form of a snide comment, immediately before you made a snide comment about other people making snide comments.

Edit: oh and

 

[adexkola]

People are just throwing the term rapist about very loosely. He was accused and the prosecution ultimately knew they could not convict him beyond reasonable doubt, does that not matter anymore?

No, obviously the prosecution, despite iron clad evidence, turned down the chance of putting away a famous athlete

 

[Eboue]

What a wonderful way to admit you fecked up and didn't want to admit you had done so. The irony of course, was it was in the form of a snide comment, immediately before you made a snide comment about other people making snide comments.

Edit: oh and

Yeah I dont see it that way but I'm glad you feel some sense of accomplishment.

 

[Eboue]

No, obviously the prosecution, despite iron clad evidence, turned down the chance of putting away a famous athlete

I know you're being sarcastic so it's weird that you think prosecutors would want to charge a famous athlete.

 

[Infra-red]

What's the difference between one of the parts feeling sex is not consensual and it actually not being consensual?

Yes, I'm struggling to get my head around that one. For sex to be consensual, all of the parties involved have to have consented (and maintain their consent throughout). If one party feels that they have not consented or withdraws their consent, then the sex that follows is, by definition, not consensual. This is surely inarguable, isn't it?

 

[entropy]

No, obviously the prosecution, despite iron clad evidence, turned down the chance of putting away a famous athlete

Come on man. You can't be this naive.

 

[adexkola]

I don't disagree with any of that, I think that's my understanding of Justice in America and partly the differences between the justice you'll face as a rich person contrasted with that of someone who hasn't the funds but relies on a public prosecutor.

There's still something wrong with it all to my mind I'm afraid. American Justice and ours too to an extent now has become not a search for truth and justice but combat of the most highly trained gladiator. Public Prosecutors, well they don't have access to highly paid and qualified PR teams.

It was kept out of Criminal Court, reparations were paid, admissions of a satisfactory nature were made but it allows his fans to say he wasn't guilty along with others aims. The forensic evidence to me seemed overwhelming but a court never got to see it, he didn't need to say a word in that case either.

That is true, and it is very possible that this could have gone to trial had Kobe been represented by a shitty public defender (criminal charges are almost always prosecuted by a public prosecutor on behalf of the state and they are very good at what they do). It is a shame that wealth guarantees good representation; both parties should be represented in court with excellent counsel.

Where I continue to stumble, is that if he was caught dead to rights, then no amount of wealth would have saved the Eagle County prosecutors office from nailing him to a post and riding that high profile conviction to a lucrative federal prosecutors position. That the case didn't even go to trial says something about how solid the case was. If the forensic evidence was overwhelming, the only negotiation that would have occurred would have been the length of Kobe's sentence.

I say this as someone who loved to hate on Kobe while he was alive.

 

[Sarni]

That is true, and it is very possible that this could have gone to trial had Kobe been represented by a shitty public defender (criminal charges are almost always prosecuted by a public prosecutor on behalf of the state and they are very good at what they do). It is a shame that wealth guarantees good representation; both parties should be represented in court with excellent counsel.

Where I continue to stumble, is that if he was caught dead to rights, then no amount of wealth would have saved the Eagle County prosecutors office from nailing him to a post and riding that high profile conviction to a lucrative federal prosecutors position. That the case didn't even go to trial says something about how solid the case was. If the forensic evidence was overwhelming, the only negotiation that would have occurred would have been the length of Kobe's sentence.

I say this as someone who loved to hate on Kobe while he was alive.

Correct. Clearly the evidence could not have been that strong or else they would have taken the chance to take it to court and convict him, and would have got her to testify.

He may have well been guilty though. I don’t know and will not pretend to know. The only person who knows now is her.

 

[Ban]

I was quoting the exact post he made exactly above. If you cant follow the conversation, just bow out.

And to miss your snide comments fest?
No.

 

[ivaldo]

Yeah I dont see it that way but I'm glad you feel some sense of accomplishment.

Course you don't. Well, you do, but you won't admit that; you won't allow yourself to. You're only pedantic when it suits you, right? I see your comments to Ban are vitally important to the premise of this thread.

Still, the gladness you get from my accomplishments is really touching. I didn't know you cared.

 

[Dr. Dwayne]

Don't rape trials usually need the victim's testimony?

From what I've seen she was not going to testify after what the legal team and fans of Bryant put her through.

 

[adexkola]

I know you're being sarcastic so it's weird that you think prosecutors would want to charge a famous athlete.

It's a resume booster for lack of a better term, if I'm stuck in a lower profile county prosecutor office I'm begging for the chance to put Kobe away, I'm riding that conviction to a prestigious state or federal prosecutor office.

Many athletes have been prosecuted in the past, for crimes both sexual and non-sexual. Darren Sharper comes to mind immediately. Plaxico Burress got jailed in NY for shooting himself in the leg, if ever there was a case that warranted looking the other way...

And yes I was being sarcastic, but dropping the sarcasm I don't understand why with substantial evidence, a prosecutor would actually decline to prosecute. That's not even considering that this is a country that doesn't hesitate to truck black men through the criminal justice system.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Yes, I'm struggling to get my head around that one. For sex to be consensual, all of the parties involved have to have consented (and maintain their consent throughout). If one party feels that they have not consented or withdraws their consent, then the sex that follows is, by definition, not consensual. This is surely inarguable, isn't it?

That’s my point. In 2003 you could get away with that but to post #metoo eyes it just reads like an admission of rape by someone pretty dim.

 

[Eboue]

It's a resume booster for lack of a better term, if I'm stuck in a lower profile county prosecutor office I'm begging for the chance to put Kobe away, I'm riding that conviction to a prestigious state or federal prosecutor office.

Many athletes have been prosecuted in the past, for crimes both sexual and non-sexual. Darren Sharper comes to mind immediately. Plaxico Burress got jailed in NY for shooting himself in the leg, if ever there was a case that warranted looking the other way...

And yes I was being sarcastic, but dropping the sarcasm I don't understand why with substantial evidence, a prosecutor would actually decline to prosecute. That's not even considering that this is a country that doesn't hesitate to truck black men through the criminal justice system.

None of those guys had remotely the stature Kobe did.

 

[adexkola]

Don't rape trials usually need the victim's testimony?

From what I've seen she was not going to testify after what the legal team and fans of Bryant put her through.

It makes the prosecutor's case more difficult, but it is possible to go to trial even if the victim refuses to testify, depending on how strong the evidence is.

 

[Jippy]

Bush, Thatcher etc.

I dunno about Bush, but Thatcher's divisiveness was highlighted in pretty much all orbits. Bit different obviously to a rape allegation though.