Now that's a bit dramatic.
Kylian Mbappé | Real Madrid watch
- Thread starter Samid
- Start date
The only thing that truly matters with a player is if the team wins more or less with them, individual goals and assists are unimportant.
Up to 11 millionSigned
I mean, it's kinda funny, but there simply is no buyer for him.Up to 11 million
He’s turning out to be the most enigmatic player of all time. He does the most important thing in football better than pretty much anyone and has a track record of a decade doing this.
In basketball they say great players make their team mates better and this is one area Mbappe struggles massively with and made worse by the fact he doesn’t seem to care. He doesn’t want to press, that’s fine he wouldn’t be the only one but combining it with only making runs that are advantageous to himself only, being a non factor aerially and not having much variety creatively, he seriously limits his team and teammates.
Add in his massive ego and the person who should be the answer becomes the problem.
In basketball they say great players make their team mates better and this is one area Mbappe struggles massively with and made worse by the fact he doesn’t seem to care. He doesn’t want to press, that’s fine he wouldn’t be the only one but combining it with only making runs that are advantageous to himself only, being a non factor aerially and not having much variety creatively, he seriously limits his team and teammates.
Add in his massive ego and the person who should be the answer becomes the problem.
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Success is a very dangerous thing. The best sportspeople who ever dealt with success I've found is Michael Jordan and Sir Alex Ferguson. Both had many tools to keep the hunger and fire; it's what truly separates the greatest from the great: longevity.
You can bet that early Mbappe almost certainly would have pressed like a maniac, but success has clearly got to him and has brought out some negative attributes.
Nevermind a buyer, Florentino isn't gonna sell him no matter what
He's the new age of superstar, it used to be the case we all loved the maverick superstars because they felt human and like us. Reality is the like of Mbappe and Ronaldo call the shots with their over inflated ego's and power.
I hate the modern footballer, they believe they are bigger than the club and their fans.
I hate the modern footballer, they believe they are bigger than the club and their fans.
Can't wait til we sign him at 36.
It's not the most important thing in football and never has been. Before Messi and Cristiano, the best goal scorers were rarely seen as the best players. Their rivalry started because they were the best overall players but it became more and more centered on goal statistics to the point that when they "semi-retired", fans had been comparing stat sheets for so long that they unlearned to distinguish between "the best footballer" and "the best goal scorer". And not only the fans, I think many players were conditioned by fans, media and probably stat obsessed coaches as well to maximize their perosnal output as well, sometimes to the detriment of their teams, Mbappe being a prime example of that. But slowly it's beginning to sink in again that there's more to being the best than just putting the ball into the back of the net more than everybody else.
Surprised by what I am hearing. Are we sure this isn't an exaggeration by the press? I can understand him lacking effort at PSG but at Madrid?
Yeah, Puskas, Di Stefano, Pelé, Cruyff, Van Basten, Ronaldo, totally not some of the best goalscorers in football history...
Hell, even Maradona, was ultimately most famous for his goals, not the playmaking
He's really bad defensively but this "doesn't press" thing is overblown. He's a striker, not a defender ffs. The problem with him is that he's not been a difference maker when we needed him most. Vinicius, by comparison, is more reliable in that regard
Struggling with 'vastly better'. Mbappe's 11 games and 14 goals are vastly better than Dembele's 11 games and 6 goals. Mbappe has been more creative with 3.06 chances and 0.49 big chances created per 90, compared to Dembele's 2.67 chances and 0.13 big chances per 90. Dembele's defensive work has been a lot better, but otherwise Mbappe has had a much better CL campaign.
I don’t watch Real Madrid often enough, but does Vini Jr press? I feel that when he’s in the team and Mbappe isn’t their record is better, because most teams can accommodate one player just not putting in a shift defensively. I may be wrong but typically if Mbappe starts, it’s through the middle or in a 442 with vini, so then it becomes two players not pressing and that’s where the more negative record comes from?
Would be keen to know Mbappes win percentage in games he started without vini present. The problem is you can’t play both of them together.
Would be keen to know Mbappes win percentage in games he started without vini present. The problem is you can’t play both of them together.
Sure. But those images are nonsense.
Mbappe started 23 out of the first 25 league games. Madrid's record in those games was 17W 3D 3L.
Won't happen.
Yeah, Puskas, Di Stefano, Pelé, Cruyff, Van Basten, Ronaldo, totally not some of the best goalscorers in football history...
Hell, even Maradona, was ultimately most famous for his goals, not the playmaking
He's really bad defensively but this "doesn't press" thing is overblown. He's a striker, not a defender ffs. The problem with him is that he's not been a difference maker when we needed him most. Vinicius, by comparison, is more reliable in that regard
Maradona, Cruyff and Di Stefano were far from being the best goal scorers of their respective generations. The same goes for Zidane, Ronaldinho, Laudrup, Baggio, Gullit, Garrincha, Beckenbauer, Platini, Best, Charlton, Matthäus and many more.
I thought you were joking, but it's up to 12.3Up to 11 million
Vini presses, what he doesn't do is track back but that's also partly down to coaching instructions
The problem with them isn't defensive anyways, the problem is that they don't gel in attack because they're too similar, so our attack against set defences sucks
Literally anyone can vote though. I didI thought you were joking, but it's up to 12.3
Di Stefano, the guy with 1:1 goals to games ratio was far from the best goalscorer of his generation???
Cruyff?? Have you seen what his goalscoring record was like
To win a game you have to score more than the opposition so I’d say it is the most important thing. Now that doesn’t mean the best scorer is the best player but a lot of the time they are.
If your point was about the best poacher then fair enough but to be the best scorer you will have the quality to make things happen on the pitch that others just can’t do. A mazy dribble or a through ball are sexy but the ability to find space where there is none and convert half chances is more important. Being the best goalscorer isn’t just about putting the ball in the net, it’s stretching defences, battling with defenders and even bringing others into play to be able to create for you. These are the things Mbappe is struggling with and impacting his team negatively with.
I didn't say they didn't score many goals. I said that they weren't the best goal scorers of their generatoin. Di Stefano played at the same time as Puskas and Zarra, arguably even Pelé, so he wasn't the best goal scorer of his generation while Cruyff played at the same time as Gerd Müller and Eusebio. Most of the time the best player wasn't the most prolific goal scorer.
There's a difference between winning games and maximizing your personal goal record. In the end, a player goal is just the last touch before the ball passes the goal line. The result doesn't care who had it and it's not necessarily the most important part of the sequence of play. Trying to score as many goals yourself as possible can actually harm the team. There are many very knowledgable experts, players and coaches who say that matches are won in midfield.
Mbappé scored most of his goals against mediocre teams in the group phase while Dembele has been killing it in the knockout stage so far.
This is totally false. Pele was seen as the greatest player of all time for ages, and he scored a thousand goals before he turned 30, and is still the highest goalscorer of all time according to Guiness and still arguably the greatest player of all time.
Then you have Eusebio, Ferenc Puskas, DiStefano Ronaldo, Romario etc., all among the most prolific goalscorers of their time, and all considered to be the best players of their time as well.
Obviously, a rounded player who scores a lot is usually going to be deemed a better footballer than one who only scores and does nothing else, but the statement as you have constructed it is false. Romario is perhaps the most 'pure' scorer in that list, and even he was thought to be the best player in the world by many at his peak.
Basically, sometimes the best player in the world is a prolific goalscorer and sometimes they aren't (Zidane, for example). But there is no truth to the notion that this title was always held by a non-prolific scorer before Messi and Ronaldo, or was never held by the best goalscorers before them.
If I were an ass, I would dig up the I told you so’s that were said when you signed him, that you argued tooth and nail against saying t’would be fine -_-, but I am not.
I really thought Mbappé would be better than this, what can I say. I figured him and Vini would learn to combine instead of each trying to do their own thing, too
Defensively the greater issue is we've not been well coached, had a ton of injuries and the CBs haven't been good. The Mbappé/Vini duo is a problem there more so in terms of putting more weight on the midfielders which can mean Guler(terrible), Fede and/or Jude(who we'd ideally not want spending all their energy on defence)
I think it 's a question of roles, too similar roles for both of them with similar Ego. So there is quite a portion of blame on Vini too.
In PSG he was even more lazy and sellfish, till he realized Messi wasn't there to take the spotlight from him and that he could provide and be cool with it, when they clicked, they looked awesome together, yet the timing was off, the team was already in disarray and many of the players now on full form, were terrible in that period. The thing it's that so far he takes too much time finding those associations or needs to be paired with someone a la Griezzmann/Messi to really gel.
It's not a problem of roles, it's a problem of playing style. They both want either the ball to their feet fronting the defence so they can try and carry through the defence, or to be played in behind. They don't combine well, and don't really play with their teammates at all beyond wanting them to help/set up their plays
Vini is a bit more of a playmaker, more of solo actions are meant to end in a final ball compared to Mbappé, who only wants to shoot, but the issue remains because Mbappé doesn't occupy the box so he's rarely in position to receive those finals balls from Vini
That they also want to do those things while occupying similar spaces compounds the problem
In fairness, many people thought it would be over for the rest of football when the reigning European and Spanish champions added Mbappe to the mix.
It is laughably similar to the fear that everyone had over the reigning Premier League champions spending 300 million to add Wirtz, Isak etc. to their ranks. That turned out even worse.....
I guess it really is true what they say about football not being played on paper. I mean, PSG had a front three of Messi, Mbappe and Neymar, and yet their current front three has had more team success.
I've meant that too, bad choice of words and I agree that Vini at least does more regularly the old winger cross or assist. That's why he mixes better with forwards/mids with a complete package like and a more well rounded team play like Antoine and when he cliked with Messi.
Also both need and thrive better with space on the break, even if they can actually associate, they just want all the time to play in such mode.
Timing it's everything not only in football, life itself.
It's kind of crazy how Madrid played much better with Joselu than with Mbappé.
But it's similar to what happened with the galacticos 20 years ago. There is no balance if you get players because they are famous and not because you actually need them.
But it's similar to what happened with the galacticos 20 years ago. There is no balance if you get players because they are famous and not because you actually need them.
Still Mbappe is Mbappe. There is nothing wrong to buy such a player, this type of fellas are always welcome on any team.
Another subject it's the ability to integrate such caliber of player
Again, I never said scoring is unimportant. But playmaking was clearly more important historically. There are many examples of playmakers being held in higher regards than the best goal scorers of their time - Ronaldinho, Kaká, Zidane, Maradona, Platini, Beckenbauer, Cruyff, Best - but almost none for the other way round. Nobody sees Müller as better than Beckenbauer, Eto'o better than Ronaldinho or Henry better than Zidane. The Ballon d'Or history would look very different if goal scoring had been the most important criterion.
The player has to be willing to integrate into the team as well rather than just playing for himself.
This is not a coherent statement. First of all, there are many different types of playmaker - it is not all one thing. The playmaker in the 8 or the 6 who controls the tempo of the game from midfield is different from the 10 who operates in the final third and controls the game less but perhaps creates direct chances more. And the 10 is different from the creative player who operates on the wings or the inside left or right. But players in those positions are also often called 'playmakers.'
To say that 'playmaking was more important historically' is just a general claim without context. Are you saying that midfield players were more important historically than strikers? Not sure how this is true. Are you saying that number 10s were historically more important than number 9s? Maybe that is true, but it is because 10s create and score, making them doubly dangerous. Saying that the playmaking aspect is automatically more important doesn't make sense - they are both important.
Let's examine this.
First of all, Cruyff, Maradona, Platini, Best, Dinho and Kaka were all notable goalscorers in addition to their sublime creative abilities. Each has more than 250 career goals (Kaka is close), which is a lot of goals. Cruyff, for example, has more career goals than Alan Shearer. He has 400+. Platini has 350+, almost as many as Jean Pierre Papin. Maradona also has 350+ and was the top scorer in 3 separate seasons in Argentina, as well as being Napoli's all time top scorer (before he was passed).
The only 2 you've listed that are not scorers are Franz and Zidane. One of those is a midfielder, and one is a defender/sweeper. Both great players, but there's reasons they didn't score much, they weren't forward players.
All this shows is that the best players are those who can create AND score. I don't think it's about one or the other.
I mean, I don't think this is a strong argument. It just depends on the players in question. Did anyone think that R9 and Romario were better than Ronaldinho when they played together? Surely they are more scoring inclined than he is? Did anyone think Henry was better than Bergkamp when they played together? Surely Bergkamp is more of a 'playmaker' than Henry?
I'm not sure what the Ballon D'Or has to do with anything, but it has been given to scorers lots of times.
Again, I think the optimum is a player that can create and score to a high level. Most of the people you've mentioned did that.
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Christ here we go again….
Messi and Ronaldo haven't been mentioned here, so you should be happy. No need to put the cape on....