Great achievement for Mbappe. Fair play to him. Don't think they'll be as good, but he and Haaland seem like the obvious ones to take over from Messi and Ronaldo. They'll be battling it out for years to come.
Kylian Mbappe | PSG
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I’m shocked he’s already passed Eto’o and Rooney in the CL. He’s going to quickly climb the ladder along with Haaland. Those two will finish with over 100 goals in the competition if they don’t sustain serious injuries, which has been one of the biggest and most incredible part of Messiano’s success.
There's no battle. Haaland is a much better player than Mbappe with much bigger potential. That's not a slight on Mbappe, he has Neymar/Luis Suarez potential, but Haaland has Messi/Ronaldo one, if he continues to improve and barring any major injuries.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
Haaland doesn’t have Messi/CR7 potential, they’re not in the same world and are completely different types of players. Mbappé has a slightly better chance because his profile is more in line with those players but no one is the next Messi/CR7.
Haaland is a pure CF, he’ll bang in a ton of goals and have a huge impact, but he can’t impact the game in as many ways as Mbappé can in my opinion and I’d prefer to have Mbappé out of the two, but they could also equally work well together. They are putting out pretty similar numbers despite the fact Mbappé isn’t a CF and I think Mbappé would probably have over a goal a game in the Bundesliga, which is pretty tailor made for a talent like Haaland. I watch both a lot and I think Mbappé is clearly the bigger talent but to each his own, they will both dominate world football, although Mbappé has been teetering on that edge for a little while now already.
If he was more clinical, he would be smashing records this season with the chances put in front of him. He already has his head at Real Madrid and Real Madrid will be lucky to have a more motivated player playing for them next season
He'd be crushing it if he had a more competent manager.
CL isn't the same that it used to be. The disparity between the big/smaller teams is much greater than it used to be.
While it's a great record it doesn't really mean as much anymore when players are stat padding in the group stages.
The manager he has now has made a gameplan that has created lots of opportunities for him to score. The onus is on mbappe to finish those chances which he hasn't been doing consistently this season. The latter doesn't require a comment manager but a competent player that can finish.
I think teams like United and Barcelona were plenty dominant back in their days too compared to the competition they faced in the group stages though. I don't really see the difference you're talking about.
Not sure the records reflect that.
What era are you talking about? 1990? Because otherwise, it's more competitive now than it was 7-8 years ago, mainly because PL clubs are far more suited (not 1 or 2 of them but usually 3 or 4). I remember the days back in 2014 when you were almost sure to get an easy draw one you finished 1st of your CL group, now you're likely to face PSG, Atletico Madrid, Juventus or other teams that are far better than Fc Bale, Leverkusen, shakthar, Schalke etc.
Totally disagree. Haaland does not have Messi/Ronaldo potential and he’s not better than Mbappe.
We all know how difficult it is to compare players because of their different positions, different skills, different attitudes, ...today.
So it's even far more difficult to compare players from different generations.
Mbappe is fast, skillful, agile, has days were it all looks brilliant, has days were you think what is doing on the pitch.
Haaland is fast, very strong, straightforward, and most of the time he knows where the goal is.
They are both different, but both have a lot of potential
I do wonder if this is the case actually, and if it is, I’m trying to figure out why. Players now do seem to be scoring more goals in the champions league than ever before. I mean, if you leave out the obvious two who are anomalies, the next highest goalscorers are Lewa and Benz. Now no disrespect to those guys, but are they clearly the best strikers we’ve had in the last 30 years to be so far ahead of your Henrys, RVNs, Rauls, Shevas, Eto’os etc.? Not to my mind. Maybe it is to do with the superclubs just getting stronger and stronger. I don’t know.
Can’t disagree with what you’ve said here, but at the end of the day, what is the biggest game that Haaland has played in? What has he done on the biggest stage? That’s why I’m not having that he’s better than Mbappe at this time. Haaland could go on to prove all that when he goes to a bigger club, but he hasn’t yet.
I definitely think it is super clubs although there have been super teams before. I also think now that youngsters like Mbappé and Haaland growing up watching Messi and CR7 and the figures they put up season after season, and it’s now in general consciousness of football that it’s possible. I don’t remember how long ago, but I brought that up and how we probably won’t have to wait as long as some think to see figures like the ones Messi and CR7 put up.
In come Mbappé and then Haaland now, and more will come.
Maybe you are right. They’re getting started early these days. I mean Haaland’s current goal ratio is insane. It’s clearly a target now for players to rack up numbers in that competition by hook or by crook. I don’t think previous generations looked at it quite the same way.
If you look at Benzema in a bit more detail it paints a more intuitive picture.
While he's scored a boatload of goals, he hasn't been scoring at an exceptional rate: Ruud, di Stéfano, Eusébio, Puskás, Muller and others scored at a much higher rate. For example if Ruud played as many CL games as Benzema, he'd have scored over 100 goals at that rate.
While Benzema was exceptionally good at a young age, it is one of the dominant themes of this generation that players are playing at their peak for longer.
And due to the nature of super clubs, if you're playing for one you're more or less guaranteed to play 5+ CL games a season: the last time Benzema didn't was when he was 19. For contrast, Gerd Muller was 27 when he first played 5+ European Cup games in a season (naturally he scored 11 goals in 6 games).
And due to the expanded nature of the competition, it's much easier to play a lot of games: Benzema had 5 seasons where he played 10+ games, which amounts to more CL matches than Muller ever played, while Muller had just one season when he managed 10 games.
And we're in a high scoring era: 2019-20 was the highest scoring European Cup since 1976. It wasn't an aberration either, in the last 5 seasons there's been an average of over 3 goals per game. During Ruud's time with us it was 2.6, during van Basten's time with Milan it was 2.7, even during Muller's time which is associated with no-mark Eastern European teams it was only 2.96 goals per game...and again because of the nature of superclubs, the goals have been oriented much more towards their strikers rather than the opposition's.
So more games, more goals, and more skewed results create a slightly misleading statistical story. The likes of di Stéfano, Muller, Eusébio, Puskás would easily have hit over 100 goals if they managed over 100 games like Benzema, Lewandowski or Zlatan.
Fair points all
Very interesting, I'm just curious where do you get your stats?
Teams are better than ever, players are better than ever, and football has shifted more towards attack as everybody finally understood that winning is better than not losing, which has meant more goals. And yes, of course the superteams of today are miles better than the ones of yesteryear
And also yes, in absolute terms Benzema and Lewandowski probably are better than Sheva, Raul, etc(probably not Henry). Relative to the level of competition, probably not
Good analysis.
Not necessarily. With his 2 goals yesterday he is on 23, but he is out of the Champions League this season. So to beat it Haaland will have to score 7 in next years Champions League, as he will turn 22 in the summer. It's likely - especially if he moves to a bigger club - but not a certainty.
Are we sure about this?
Has to play in the Europa League now. It’s a crying shame.
Just wiki in this case! It's one of the summary statistics they put in the little vignette at the top of the page for each competition, so it's easy to sweep through the years and track the change visually.
Yes. Better fitness, coaching, nutrition, etc
They very much are. Fitness in particular makes a big difference
Benzema and Lewandowski are at their peak right now; most of these other guys were done at the top level (and some had been for quite a while) at the same age. Raul was moving to Al Saad and had been gone from the NT for years.
Nice breakdown of it all and if Benzema has played 5+ CL games a season since he was 19, suggests he's been comparatively lucky re injuries than others too.
What in particularly is Haaland "much better" at and what's this supposed untapped potential? I don't doubt that he can turn out to be better than Mbappé (and vice versa). His finishing is obviously better... his movement is arguably better & he's physically stronger. Mbappé is a better dribbler & passer of the ball, he's faster and is more versatile. I genuinely wonder if you have an actual explanation.
The performance level of those at the very top hasn't changed that much. It does elevate the average level though.
Bit hyperbole mate. To say Haaland is a "much better" player than Mbappe is an exaggeration. They both have the potential to reach the same heights.
Great post, must say.
True! I do actually think Benzema's exceptional in all sorts of ways that are just very easy to overlook. To me, consistency is by far more the most valuable trait in a player, and his consistency is pretty incredible when you think of the length of the career he's had. That relied on a genuinely exceptional combination of fitness, mentality and a really broad skillset. While he had a fallow period in terms of goals in Ronaldo's last couple of seasons, he was still a brilliant foil for the whole attack. It's hard to think of many players that were a star in their teens, a start in their 30s, and yet during their prime years they happily stayed in the shadows of another superstar. For someone to have that combination of talent, style, status, professionalism and ego is a bit baffling!
It's great to see him end on a high, because if he'd ended his career when Ronaldo left, he'd have just been seen as a "what could have been" type player. Since then he's demonstrated really clearly what he was giving up as an individual to help the team reach historic highs, so he absolutely deserves to be ahead of folks like Shevchenko, van Nistelrooy, Henry etc. for me.
True. His record is insane though. Would have smashed it for sure if he didn't miss three games this season but so far he's had a goal/game record or better in each season of the Champions League he's played in. Barring injury he should play at least 6 matches in next season's edition.
Not for individual games maybe but over a season it has
Improvements in fitness or quality wouldn't drive goal figures upwards though. If anything, they are likely to cancel out the numbers going up, as the easy goals are harder to come by. Or to give a real example, if the average CB is quicker or stronger, Mbappe or Haaland score fewer from simply burning past players.
I think the main trends driving all these goal records are set out nicely in Brwned's post. It's primarily about more games between teams that are relatively richer than their opposition, when compared to the resource gap between teams in the 80s and 90s. And, as you said, the game is more tilted towards attackers, be it more favourable refereeing, quicker pitches and superclub fans no longer accepting defensive football.
Not by themselves, no. It's the combination of better players - more specifically fitter players -, better teams, better superteams, more games and the trend towards more goals across the board
Every single statistic is flawed when used in isolation. Nonetheless, "goal:match ratio" is a superior indicator of a striker's goalscoring ability compared with "total goals scored." This is similar to the “batting average” popular in cricket. What surprises me so much is that while batting averages are the most frequently used metric to judge a batsman’s abilities (instead of total career runs), goal:match ratio is rarely mentioned within footballing circles. The beauty of the statistic is in its simplicity and doesn’t require any complex machine-derived computation.
"Total goals scored" is a measure of a striker’s “longevity”, or the frequency of the team’s participation in a certain competition. For instance, Real Madrid's omnipresence in the Champions League heavily skews that statistic in favour of their players.
An example I frequently give is that of Raúl’s. Raúl is considered by many to be one of the greatest strikers of the modern generation (more so by people obsessed with statistics)! He would even be in the top-five modern strikers of many people's lists. The general argument is that he scored a whopping 400+ career goals and several major trophies. I followed his career closely in the '90s and the 2000s and know for a fact that he was an extremely average left-footed striker. I think he couldn't score >25 League goals his entire career. Some people may not like it, but he's not even half the striker Karim Benzema is. And Benzema himself barely manages to scrape into the list of elite strikers.
The "total goals scored" metric is extremely misleading, but if you calculate the ratio, things become clearer:
Raúl: ~0.4, Benzema: ~0.55.
If people don't like the ratio in decimals, the fraction can be expressed in percentages and read as 40, 55, etc. And do this for elite goal scorers and the statistic really shines through: Messi : ~78, Ronaldo: 73, Lewandowski: 68, Mbappe: 63, Haaland: 73.
Alternatively, (goals+assists):match ratio could be used to determine an attacking players goal contributions per match.
"Total goals scored" is a measure of a striker’s “longevity”, or the frequency of the team’s participation in a certain competition. For instance, Real Madrid's omnipresence in the Champions League heavily skews that statistic in favour of their players.
An example I frequently give is that of Raúl’s. Raúl is considered by many to be one of the greatest strikers of the modern generation (more so by people obsessed with statistics)! He would even be in the top-five modern strikers of many people's lists. The general argument is that he scored a whopping 400+ career goals and several major trophies. I followed his career closely in the '90s and the 2000s and know for a fact that he was an extremely average left-footed striker. I think he couldn't score >25 League goals his entire career. Some people may not like it, but he's not even half the striker Karim Benzema is. And Benzema himself barely manages to scrape into the list of elite strikers.
The "total goals scored" metric is extremely misleading, but if you calculate the ratio, things become clearer:
Raúl: ~0.4, Benzema: ~0.55.
If people don't like the ratio in decimals, the fraction can be expressed in percentages and read as 40, 55, etc. And do this for elite goal scorers and the statistic really shines through: Messi : ~78, Ronaldo: 73, Lewandowski: 68, Mbappe: 63, Haaland: 73.
Alternatively, (goals+assists):match ratio could be used to determine an attacking players goal contributions per match.
@TheLord
It used to be that if you scored 20 goals in a season that was an excellent return. There are legitimate reasons why a like for like comparison between a striker from 20 years ago to a striker from today may be flawed. Independent of whether you think Benz is better than Raul (he has a strong case), I don't think the goal/match metric comes into it.
It used to be that if you scored 20 goals in a season that was an excellent return. There are legitimate reasons why a like for like comparison between a striker from 20 years ago to a striker from today may be flawed. Independent of whether you think Benz is better than Raul (he has a strong case), I don't think the goal/match metric comes into it.