Lack of Coaching

[fergieisold]

After watching the game last night I think we genuinely do not play counter attacking football as a priority. Although clearly we can execute it well when the opportunity arises, as we did for our goal. I thought we looked fairly well drilled up until the final third and then it seemed a bit of a mess, players not really knowing where to be or who to pass to.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Yeah it is one poor corner after another and just gives you no confidence when we get one.

We are no threat at corners at all. In the past they were whipped in and even if the CB's did not score, they caused chaos in the box and the ball was in there. Now the ball either doesn't reach the penalty area or goes over everyone's heads. It is ridiculous. Surely to god someone has realised this.

 

[diarm]

What is also indicative of poor coaching is that when new players arrive, they perform very well. Some even pick up the player of the month aware. A few months later, their performance level drops and never returns. I saw this happen with Miki, who became so bad, that he had to be sold. Darmian got a player of the month award and eventually got sold for peanuts. Remember Bailly? A stellar first 3 months, then turned to junk. The list goes on.

Di Maria, Schneiderlin, Matic, Pogba, Rashford, Martial, Rojo, Dalot, Lukaku, Memphis, Shaw.

All players who looked good in their first few games for the club and then regressed.

I often wonder what we spend our time doing in training, when I see the players that aren't immediately around the ball carrier just standing still and aimlessly about the place. When I see one forward pressing and harrying an opponent but the other three dropping back and holding a now compromised shape. When I see us clip in our only corner move for the 11th time in the match.

It can't always be about the players. We played brilliant football in years gone by with Cleverley, Anderson and Park in our midfield because they knew their jobs and they had good attacking players running off the ball and moving into space ahead of them.

We don't move off the ball anymore - it feels like all our players want the ball to their feet standing still so they can look up, and try to pick a pass to someone else who's standing still.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

Di Maria, Schneiderlin, Matic, Pogba, Rashford, Martial, Rojo, Dalot, Lukaku, Memphis, Shaw.

All players who looked good in their first few games for the club and then regressed.

I often wonder what we spend our time doing in training, when I see the players that aren't immediately around the ball carrier just standing still and aimlessly about the place. When I see one forward pressing and harrying an opponent but the other three dropping back and holding a now compromised shape. When I see us clip in our only corner move for the 11th time in the match.

It can't always be about the players. We played brilliant football in years gone by with Cleverley, Anderson and Park in our midfield because they knew their jobs and they had good attacking players running off the ball and moving into space ahead of them.

We don't move off the ball anymore - it feels like all our players want the ball to their feet standing still so they can look up, and try to pick a pass to someone else who's standing still.

That has annoyed me for a long time. Get the ball, pass it quick and move to give someone the option for a pass. Then the defenders have to move as well. If you just stand there the defence just stands in front of you like an impenetrable wall. They have to stretch the defence and get them out of their comfort zone. This has been a problem for years not just now.

 

[Skills]

Di Maria, Schneiderlin, Matic, Pogba, Rashford, Martial, Rojo, Dalot, Lukaku, Memphis, Shaw.

All players who looked good in their first few games for the club and then regressed.

I often wonder what we spend our time doing in training, when I see the players that aren't immediately around the ball carrier just standing still and aimlessly about the place. When I see one forward pressing and harrying an opponent but the other three dropping back and holding a now compromised shape. When I see us clip in our only corner move for the 11th time in the match.

It can't always be about the players. We played brilliant football in years gone by with Cleverley, Anderson and Park in our midfield because they knew their jobs and they had good attacking players running off the ball and moving into space ahead of them.

We don't move off the ball anymore - it feels like all our players want the ball to their feet standing still so they can look up, and try to pick a pass to someone else who's standing still.

The coaching staff seem to spend most of their time thinking about what players they can buy and ruin next.

They have 0 coaching accountability because the club and it's fan base refuses to hold them accountable for anything the players do on the pitch.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I think they are being coached, but our coaches seem to be completely blind to what the problems are or if they do realise cannot seem to resolve them. Not being able to take corners and freekicks, lack of movement outside the box, lack of movement inside the box, lack of striking intelligence.

 

[VP89]

I think they are being coached, but our coaches seem to be completely blind to what the problems are or if they do realise cannot seem to resolve them. Not being able to take corners and freekicks, lack of movement outside the box, lack of movement inside the box, lack of striking intelligence.

So they're not being coached.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

So they're not being coached.

No I think they are bring coached, but not correctly. If they were coached correctly those problems would be solved. It's all a bit chummy for me.

 

[VP89]

No I think they are bring coached, but not correctly. If they were coached correctly those problems would be solved. It's all a bit chummy for me.

I find that akin to not being coached. When people are saying we don't look coached they're not suggesting Ole has players in for training and they just sit there playing scrabble. It's more a case of Oles team not properly coaching the side in a manner that's efficient or even adding value.

@Kag made a fair thread yesterday suggesting we are where we should be with these players and why should we expect any different. But you look over the Chelsea who are in a very similar situation and you find a completely different side by way of performances. Their general performance levels are way, way better than ours.

A good coach gets the best out of average players. At the very least he makes it clear how they are setting up to attack and creates patterns of play that people can familiarise with when they watch the game. Ole doesn't have that, after 11 months too.

 

[R'hllor]

You will always how people focus more on quality of the players, guess if you have world class players, you dont need to train or coach them dunno. If you sit there and watch us trying to play, patterns, triangles, run behind, cut backs and those things not working out due poor quality, then sure, we can discuss but we aint even trying because clearly we have not clue how to play football, even basic shit.

 

[Skills]

No I think they are bring coached, but not correctly. If they were coached correctly those problems would be solved. It's all a bit chummy for me.

I think the most obvious example of this is when Ole and his coaching staff, tried to blame the squads fitness for the poor pressing. Well it was part of the problem, but the biggest problem was not pushing his defensive line up and also a lack of organisation in the press.

We didn't address that, and we're still not good enough at pressing.

 

[Skills]

You will always how people focus more on quality of the players, guess if you have world class players, you dont need to train or coach them dunno. If you sit there and watch us trying to play, patterns, triangles, run behind, cut backs and those things not working out due poor quality, then sure, we can discuss but we aint even trying because clearly we have not clue how to play football, even basic shit.

You're still not going to achieve much of note with them.

The thing is the fans and managers expect the club to invest 100s of millions in players, yet don't hold the guys coaching them accountable for maximising the resources at their hand.

If you've somehow got the best playing XI, you need to expect the manager to win the title every season and also deliver a CL or 2. Anything short is not good enough. Because you've only got a short window to actually make use of that. Players primes don't last for years on end, and a squads prime lasts even shorter.

It's why Barcelona fans aren't satisfied with Valverde. It's not called being spoilt, it's expecting the guys in charge to make use of every penny the club has invested into the world's most expensive squad.

 

[DomesticTadpole]

I think the most obvious example of this is when Ole and his coaching staff, tried to blame the squads fitness for the poor pressing. Well it was part of the problem, but the biggest problem was not pushing his defensive line up and also a lack of organisation in the press.

We didn't address that, and we're still not good enough at pressing.

Pressing takes a lot of coaching, look at City and Liverpool. It takes a lot of organising and co-ordination between the players, not just running at somebody willy nilly. Practice, practice, practice. It might come right, but I hope they have not just thought 'this isn't working with this lot, let's just give up on it'.

 

[R'hllor]

You're still not going to achieve much of note with them.

The thing is the fans and managers expect the club to invest 100s of millions in players, yet don't hold the guys coaching them accountable for maximising the resources at their hand.

If you've somehow got the best playing XI, you need to expect the manager to win the title every season and also deliver a CL or 2. Anything short is not good enough. Because you've only got a short window to actually make use of that. Players primes don't last for years on end, and a squads prime lasts even shorter.

It's why Barcelona fans aren't satisfied with Valverde. It's not called being spoilt, it's expecting the guys in charge to make use of every penny the club has invested into the world's most expensive squad.

Oh i know, there is a reason why very good/world class player in eyes of the fans last for few months after joining, until it drops and turn into same shit it was before joining.

There is a reason why we didnt improve a single player we bought and elevate the value of the same, imagine doing a Coutihno, buying a player for 15mil and make it look good or improve it, raise its value so you are able to sell it for 10x as much, that sale funded their CB purchase.

Then again even all that didnt stop people to blame our issues on quality of our players.

 

[Skills]

Oh i know, there is a reason why very good/world class player in eyes of the fans last for few months after joining, until it drops and turn into same shit it was before joining.

There is a reason why we didnt improve a single player we bought and elevate the value of the same, imagine doing a Coutihno, buying a player for 15mil and make it look good or improve it, raise its value so you are able to sell it for 10x as much, that sale funded their CB purchase.

Then again even all that didnt stop people to blame our issues on quality of our players.

I can't think of a single player we've bought after Fergie who's value we actually raised. The only reason Pogba's value has risen because of inflation (thank Neymar). His stature and value is a lot less now, than when he was at Juventus.

We actually lost money on Lukaku, because players are a lot more expensive now than than when we signed Lukaku.

De Gea is the exception because he literally plays in a position which is all about playing as an individual

 

[Romez]

All you have to do is watch Liverpool or City, then watch us.

Those two teams play the same every game, score similar goals every game.

The players clearly know what they’re doing. Comfortably playing out from the back. Constantly creating chances, passing and moving.

There is a reason Robertson and TAA have so many assists. It’s because the way they play consistently puts their fullbacks into position for a cut back which results into an easy goal.

That’s coaching.

 

[bosnian_red]

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No link between midfield and attack at all unless its Pogba, and nothing between the attackers. That's what happens when you have mctominay/james/Lingard/Pereira in that midfield and attack. None if them are actually any good at progressive passing in the slightest. Martial is decent at it, Gomes/Greenwood/fred have shown to be capable, but nothing from the starters. Not going to create anything until the players on the pitch can do that, but also the coaching improves.

 

[Okey]

Synchronised passing is better shown than described. Look at the the passing in the first move. It's not bought it's coached. People make it sound like one or two signings is the difference. Like Sancho is going to make our FBs and Midfielders do this.

Thank you for this! Really better shown than described. That's a lower league side putting together moves I haven't seen United do on months and months! Those aren't star players, just a well drilled side. Someone mentioned Graham Potter at Brighton.and what he's done after just a few months (an article cheekily called them the new Barca recently). Yes they're not beating teams left and right cos of their relative lack of quality but it's clear what they're doing, and they're mostly doing it well. Norwich passing through the Citeh press the other day as well is another example. If there's a clear coaching direction in our team, then they're currently doing a good job of keeping it hidden. They could start by moving more, and quicker. Cause some chaos in the opposing defence instead of making it so easy for them to defend. Like Pep once said, the aim isn't to move the ball (anyone can do that), the aim is to move your opponent.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

I thought we pressed fairly well early in the first half, with Arsenal looking ragged as they tried to play it out, and we looked ok with the ball working it to James so he could go at Chambers. Then the press diminished, leaving Rashford rushing the keeper on his own again, and we stopped pressuring Chambers once he'd got an early card. Strange to watch, not to mention annoying.

 

[UpWithRivers]

It's also massively down to players in the right position. You can have all the systems and patterns you want but you put the wrong players there then you are fkd. Look at Fernandinho and City. Brilliant player but he just isn't a CB. Result? Mistakes and conceding goals. Tueanzebe in the wrong position. Conceding goals. Pogba too deep. Not effective. Mata/lindgard RW. Not effective. Rashford as striker especially against teams that sit deep. Not effective. A system that relies on width and crosses can't work because we our RB and LB are sht at attacking and all our players are sht at putting balls in the box and even if we manage it we have no one who is good at heading.
Coaching is about getting the best out of your players and your team and you will never do that if you are trying to turn a player into something he is not.

 

[Harry190]

I wanna know who's teaching the United players how to head the ball, because he's not doing it well.

 

[iKeano]

We have no style of play. Set pieces are a mess. What do they do at Carrington mid-week? Compare watches and play fortnite?!

It's like they don't see a ball from one weekend to the next.

 

[Darlington Padgett]

Did Ole ever get us back into a game like Mourinho used to do ?
It's a part of good coaching.

He just sits there waiting for the last 10 minutes to make subs that don't make any sense.

 

[Van Piorsing]

It's actually anti-coaching if the players getting visibly worse. Except McTominay and Greenwood I don't see any serious developments. Hopefully Gomes will keep going in right direction as his role is the key to start creating something on the pitch.

Anyway it's clueless coaching or players are bunch of seriously lazy twats which is not that far from truth I think, considering how much they earn for this pathetic excuse of display. Perhaps both factors are working simultaneously to detriment of the club.

 

[Buster15]

The coaching staff seem to spend most of their time thinking about what players they can buy and ruin next.

They have 0 coaching accountability because the club and it's fan base refuses to hold them accountable for anything the players do on the pitch.

Well said.
Until we revise the coaching setup with top quality coaches nothing much is going to improve.
Far too many people are saying this same thing for it not to be a genuine problem.

 

[Buster15]

Oh i know, there is a reason why very good/world class player in eyes of the fans last for few months after joining, until it drops and turn into same shit it was before joining.

There is a reason why we didnt improve a single player we bought and elevate the value of the same, imagine doing a Coutihno, buying a player for 15mil and make it look good or improve it, raise its value so you are able to sell it for 10x as much, that sale funded their CB purchase.

Then again even all that didnt stop people to blame our issues on quality of our players.

Very good point. If Woodward for example is primarily interested in money then surely that ought to say to him that top quality coaching is not a cost. It is an investment which can return very high values as players transfer values are increased.

 

[Sky1981]

Thank you for this! Really better shown than described. That's a lower league side putting together moves I haven't seen United do on months and months! Those aren't star players, just a well drilled side. Someone mentioned Graham Potter at Brighton.and what he's done after just a few months (an article cheekily called them the new Barca recently). Yes they're not beating teams left and right cos of their relative lack of quality but it's clear what they're doing, and they're mostly doing it well. Norwich passing through the Citeh press the other day as well is another example. If there's a clear coaching direction in our team, then they're currently doing a good job of keeping it hidden. They could start by moving more, and quicker. Cause some chaos in the opposing defence instead of making it so easy for them to defend. Like Pep once said, the aim isn't to move the ball (anyone can do that), the aim is to move your opponent.

Interesting quote on pep.

It shows the difference between world class manager and championship manager. A simple doctrine but took skill to implement.

He's true though, any teams can pass the ball quickly no problem. The problem is doing it against another xi

 

[He'sRaldo]

Things like playing out from the back and high pressing are things Mourinho generally didn't do which Ole is trying to implement. After seeing these, I was hoping there's more to come with patience.


However, he's making too many wrong decisions, and the general play still looks at the same poor level. Add to that the atrocious set-pieces which seemingly have no end...


I think the players are being coached, but the standard of coaching and decision making at the managerial level is poor. I'm starting to fear we have already hit our ceiling and patience won't solve anything.

 

[Sterling Archer]

Interesting quote on pep.

It shows the difference between world class manager and championship manager. A simple doctrine but took skill to implement.

He's true though, any teams can pass the ball quickly no problem. The problem is doing it against another xi

Van Gaal did it. Possession to move your opponent and open up paths to goal.

Jose couldn't but he became an expert in countering, nullifying it.

I don't see anything good from either approach with the team now.

 

[17Larsson]

Things like playing out from the back and high pressing are things Mourinho generally didn't do which Ole is trying to implement. After seeing these, I was hoping there's more to come with patience.


However, he's making too many wrong decisions, and the general play still looks at the same poor level. Add to that the atrocious set-pieces which seemingly have no end...


I think the players are being coached, but the standard of coaching and decision making at the managerial level is poor. I'm starting to fear we have already hit our ceiling and patience won't solve anything.

I don't know why we bother trying to play out from the back as it just ends up as a hoof up the pitch after about 3 passes.

Not being able to coach our strikers to be on the last man or in the six yard box for crosses is also a bad sign.

There is no system of attacking play and every game has the same issues regardless of who is starting which is a very bad sign coaching wise

 

[He'sRaldo]

I don't know why we bother trying to play out from the back as it just ends up as a hoof up the pitch after about 3 passes.

Not being able to coach our strikers to be on the last man or in the six yard box for crosses is also a bad sign.

There is no system of attacking play and every game has the same issues regardless of who is starting which is a very bad sign coaching wise

Yup, it's not looking good for any of the coaching staff right now. There seems to be a distinct lack of detail and commitment to what we're doing.


The only hope I have right now is that maybe we're playing this way due to a lot of our first-team options being injured. If everyone returns and this continues for a few games, then I'll have no more excuses for them.

 

[croadyman]

We definitely need to get some coaches on board who aren't afraid to challenge what Ole is saying on the training pitch, distinctly feels like our current ones just accept what Ole says and doesn't look like they bring their own ideas to the table either.

 

[Sky1981]

I thought we pressed fairly well early in the first half, with Arsenal looking ragged as they tried to play it out, and we looked ok with the ball working it to James so he could go at Chambers. Then the press diminished, leaving Rashford rushing the keeper on his own again, and we stopped pressuring Chambers once he'd got an early card. Strange to watch, not to mention annoying.

You cant press for 90 minutes. Even if you can, you cant press for 40 games a season.

Collective pressing, a well coordinated press is another, you rely more on your teammates to cover the space and opponent option without needing to run like a dog chasing a bone. You dont need to run full speed to press, but you need to cover the space or player intelligently.

What we do is harrassing the ball running like a headless chicken where the oppo teammate isnt being pressed and free to alleviate the pressure.

Ask ourselves. When did we ever won possessiin from high press? How often? How often we scared the opposition into making long punt. That's the measure of a successful pressing. Not the amount of running.

 

[hn4manunited]

We are where I expected us to be this season so far. A manager with little accomplishment so far in management at the top level, young coaching staff, learning on the job. I’m sure Ole has his ideas that he’s implementing but they are his ideas that have not been proven to be sound.

as compared to managers such as Jose, LVG or etc, they have by comparison a lifetime of achievements with their ways of accomplishing what they want. Experiences of accomplishing at the highest levels.

We have a rookie at this level trying to implement ideas not yet proven to be good enough.

 

[Ballache]

We are where I expected us to be this season so far. A manager with little accomplishment so far in management at the top level, young coaching staff, learning on the job. I’m sure Ole has his ideas that he’s implementing but they are his ideas that have not been proven to be sound.

as compared to managers such as Jose, LVG or etc, they have by comparison a lifetime of achievements with their ways of accomplishing what they want. Experiences of accomplishing at the highest levels.

We have a rookie at this level trying to implement ideas not yet proven to be good enough.

When he first took over, we pressed high up the pitch and countered. The squad wasn't fit enough to keep it up. The main topic of the summer was fitness so we can press and counter quickly. It's not happening and we keep suffering muscle related injuries. I don't know what his philosophy is.

 

[AFC NimbleThumb]

OgS banged on about fitness & pressing, we did that for about 30 minutes of the Chelsea game then injuries followed in the subsequent weeks.

I see no coaching as to what to do on the ball, there’s no method to controlling possession or building attacks.

The squad is still not fit enough despite a pre season & are no better at being on the ball either; he said the right things last season but has delivered on none of it.

 

[fergieisold]

I missed the game unfortunately. It doesn't sound like there was anything promising!

 

[hn4manunited]

When he first took over, we pressed high up the pitch and countered. The squad wasn't fit enough to keep it up. The main topic of the summer was fitness so we can press and counter quickly. It's not happening and we keep suffering muscle related injuries. I don't know what his philosophy is.

I might be completely wrong here but I’ve never played all my life and coached after that. You can’t train players without the physical attributes to just be good at high press. It requires the players to have a certain physical qualities. You can’t just make them fitter to run more.

 

[Raw]

I missed the game unfortunately. It doesn't sound like there was anything promising!

It was an absolute waste of 2 hours. Not even worth wasting time on watching the highlights.

 

[Massive Spanner]

I might be completely wrong here but I’ve never played all my life and coached after that. You can’t train players without the physical attributes to just be good at high press. It requires the players to have a certain physical qualities. You can’t just make them fitter to run more.

Huh? So you can't run more by getting fitter?

Why the hell am I bothering with the gym then?