Lack of Coaching

[Foxbatt]

I don't think our coaching is lacking on itself, I am sure it all sounds good in theory and I don't think any manager we've had would neglect to coach the team. We just don't have the players to implement it, that's why it looks like a mess. We the fans, but also our managers, expect more than this team can deliver.
The most disciplined we've been when we were set up to play against a certain strong team, usually defensive tactics when you can see what we've set out to do but that's not the United way. It might be the necessity now but not in the long run. The sooner we can stop setting our tactics to oppose the likes of City and Liverpool and force them to adapt to us the better. But it will take time, unfortunately.

This is the point I am making since Ole was signed as the Manager. He needs to adjust his tactics to the players he has and not try to fit the players to the system. Lingard will never be a KDB and Martial never an Aguero.
Now he has really disappointed me by saying that Tiki taka tappy football is not for him and he wants to play real football. Either he is delusional or he has no idea that times have changed and he is living in medieval times.

 

[KekiZeki]

This is the point I am making since Ole was signed as the Manager. He needs to adjust his tactics to the players he has and not try to fit the players to the system. Lingard will never be a KDB and Martial never an Aguero.
Now he has really disappointed me by saying that Tiki taka tappy football is not for him and he wants to play real football. Either he is delusional or he has no idea that times have changed and he is living in medieval times.

What you're saying is good for a lower ranked team, but what's the point in adjusting the system to the players we have if they're not good enough for the club and most will be gone in 3 years' time? If we adjusted for what we have now we'd play like a midtable team that maybe manages a EL spot. Let's build the way we want to play and scrap those who can't manage it, and that's like 60% of the team right now. It's gonna be a string of poor results while we do it but it is with a larger picture in mind, not immediate results. Adjusting to poor football in order to scrape up 5 more points come end of the season means nothing if we keep doing it for the next 5 years! The only time you accept sh*t football is when you are down in relegation zone but that's not a worry for us so lets build for the team we want to have not adjust for the team we currently have.

On your other point, tiki taka is not for us, no English team ever really implemented it and lasted with it. Pep's City tries to do it, Arsenal may have been the closest to it, but even they had some British intensity in their play. Tika taka means you play with a lot of patience in your game and we don't really do that, nor I am particulary fussed about being able to reproduce something unnatural to us. If I was to pick the team that I'd emulate outside of England it'd be that Bayern team that won CL. They had intensity and efficiency, they didn't care about how many passes they string togheter, they were all about the result. That mentality is a lot closer to the fabric of our club. You need to remember that Barcelona developed a certain style of play since the 70's and it wasn't all winning during that time, it's also more suited to their way of thinking. We had winning teams without tika taka and we'll have them again.

 

[Sky1981]

What you're saying is good for a lower ranked team, but what's the point in adjusting the system to the players we have if they're not good enough for the club and most will be gone in 3 years' time? If we adjusted for what we have now we'd play like a midtable team that maybe manages a EL spot. Let's build the way we want to play and scrap those who can't manage it, and that's like 60% of the team right now. It's gonna be a string of poor results while we do it but it is with a larger picture in mind, not immediate results. Adjusting to poor football in order to scrape up 5 more points come end of the season means nothing if we keep doing it for the next 5 years! The only time you accept sh*t football is when you are down in relegation zone but that's not a worry for us so lets build for the team we want to have not adjust for the team we currently have.

On your other point, tiki taka is not for us, no English team ever really implemented it and lasted with it. Pep's City tries to do it, Arsenal may have been the closest to it, but even they had some British intensity in their play. Tika taka means you play with a lot of patience in your game and we don't really do that, nor I am particulary fussed about being able to reproduce something unnatural to us. If I was to pick the team that I'd emulate outside of England it'd be that Bayern team that won CL. They had intensity and efficiency, they didn't care about how many passes they string togheter, they were all about the result. That mentality is a lot closer to the fabric of our club. You need to remember that Barcelona developed a certain style of play since the 70's and it wasn't all winning during that time, it's also more suited to their way of thinking. We had winning teams without tika taka and we'll have them again.

Such arrogance for a team who can't string 5 pass without losing the ball.

So unless Ole got a brand new XI we're going to keep playing shit football and losing points?

EDIT: It doesn't take 3 years to change tactics, Brenda does it in less than 3 months, Ancelotti, Ranieri, all good coach has their ways to implement new tactics. But not Ole, he'll need a groud zero, new XI, 3 years to implement a new tactics.

 

[KekiZeki]

Such arrogance for a team who can't string 5 pass without losing the ball.

So unless Ole got a brand new XI we're going to keep playing shit football and losing points?

EDIT: It doesn't take 3 years to change tactics, Brenda does it in less than 3 months, Ancelotti, Ranieri, all good coach has their ways to implement new tactics. But not Ole, he'll need a groud zero, new XI, 3 years to implement a new tactics.

Leicester are an odd team, and they haven't really lost their way of play since challenging for the title. If Liverpool were not so good right now Leicester would win it again. This team we have can't win and there is no point in keeping it.
Arrogance is having a poor team and thinking there is a magic formula that makes them winners. Sell them off to mid-table teams and most would fit right in, never lift a bar for those mid-table team so why keep them?

It's not arrogance believing this club can be winning again, the club is bigger than any group of players and unless they can deliver (what they're constantly failing to do under multiple managers) then it's logical to replace them.

 

[Sky1981]

Leicester are an odd team, and they haven't really lost their way of play since challenging for the title. If Liverpool were not so good right now Leicester would win it again. This team we have can't win and there is no point in keeping it.
Arrogance is having a poor team and thinking there is a magic formula that makes them winners. Sell them off to mid-table teams and most would fit right in, never lift a bar for those mid-table team so why keep them?

It's not arrogance believing this club can be winning again, the club is bigger than any group of players and unless they can deliver (what they're constantly failing to do under multiple managers) then it's logical to replace them.

What's arrogance is thinking you don't need to change anything because in 3 years time you'll gonna be playing Manchester United of the 1999 treble winning team somehow.

It's like having a big hole on your ship and it's sinking, and you arrogantly refused to grab a bucket and start shoving, because in 3 years time you're gonna built a new ship.

It's arrogance, and quite frankly, stupidity

 

[KekiZeki]

What's arrogance is thinking you don't need to change anything because in 3 years time you'll gonna be playing Manchester United of the 1999 treble winning team somehow.

It's like having a big hole on your ship and it's sinking, and you arrogantly refused to grab a bucket and start shoving, because in 3 years time you're gonna built a new ship.

It's arrogance, and quite frankly, stupidity

It's not sinking, it's declining, but steadily at the moment. We never had to go through a big transition during the days of sir Alex Ferguson because he made the painless transitions from one generation and in to the next, but that ship has sailed at this point. When you've declined as we have tough decisions are needed. Spending a lot of money just to scrape up a few more points is the reason why we gave all that money to Sanchez and look what good did that do?
It's clear our club has abandoned that policy and rightly so, now we face the challenging task of finding the tactics that works. It seems that it involves getting rid of deadwood, giving our youth a chance and only adding right players at an acceptible price. It'll take time but it will come good, have faith.

 

[Sky1981]

It's not sinking, it's declining, but steadily at the moment. We never had to go through a big transition during the days of sir Alex Ferguson because he made the painless transitions from one generation and in to the next, but that ship has sailed at this point. When you've declined as we have tough decisions are needed. Spending a lot of money just to scrape up a few more points is the reason why we gave all that money to Sanchez and look what good did that do?
It's clear our club has abandoned that policy and rightly so, now we face the challenging task of finding the tactics that works. It seems that it involves getting rid of deadwood, giving our youth a chance and only adding right players at an acceptible price. It'll take time but it will come good, have faith.

So you're saying Ole shouldn't do anything to improve our tactics?

but what's the point in adjusting the system to the players we have if they're not good enough for the club and most will be gone in 3 years' time?

So, unless Ole fully got a full new XI it's ok we're losing point?

 

[KekiZeki]

So you're saying Ole shouldn't do anything to improve our tactics?



So, unless Ole fully got a full new XI it's ok we're losing point?

I never said he shouldn't improve our tactics, but that he shouldn't adjust our tactics to mediocracy.

And I never said we need to get the full new 11, but we do need to get a lot of new players.

You're purposley taking things I said out of context and adding a different meaning to it just so you can "win" an argument. Well, here you go, you've won, I concede a defeat.

Feel better yet?

Or you can think about the topic rationally, the fact is the club is not sinking but it's also the fact most of our players are not winners at this point, personally I don't think 60% of our team has the capacity to be winners but that's my opinion. Whatever the numeber of players we need to get rid is, it's surely a great number of players. No new manager can give you a title until the team has beein rebuilt.

 

[matt10000]

Good coach lose sometimes wins consistently

Bad coach win sometimes lose consistently

Coach you I will

 

[Sky1981]

I never said he shouldn't improve our tactics, but that he shouldn't adjust our tactics to mediocracy.

And I never said we need to get the full new 11, but we do need to get a lot of new players.

You're purposley taking things I said out of context and adding a different meaning to it just so you can "win" an argument. Well, here you go, you've won, I concede a defeat.

Feel better yet?

Or you can think about the topic rationally, the fact is the club is not sinking but it's also the fact most of our players are not winners at this point, personally I don't think 60% of our team has the capacity to be winners but that's my opinion. Whatever the numeber of players we need to get rid is, it's surely a great number of players. No new manager can give you a title until the team has beein rebuilt.

So he should maintain an aristocratic tactics and persists with it fails, until he gets a new 7-8 players?

I'm trying not to twist your post, but it is what you're saying

 

[KekiZeki]

So he should maintain an aristocratic tactics and persists with it fails, until he gets a new 7-8 players?

I'm trying not to twist your post, but it is what you're saying

We should improve with adding 3 or 4 players in the summer. I am not saying we shouldn't adjust our tactics a bit for a game or 2 if it's to win the cup or EL but it shouldn't be our philosophy and club's philosophy is made playing leage games every week.

 

[Judas]

We should improve with adding 3 or 4 players in the summer. I am not saying we shouldn't adjust our tactics a bit for a game or 2 if it's to win the cup or EL but it shouldn't be our philosophy and club's philosophy is made playing leage games every week.

What are they?

 

[Sky1981]

We should improve with adding 3 or 4 players in the summer. I am not saying we shouldn't adjust our tactics a bit for a game or 2 if it's to win the cup or EL but it shouldn't be our philosophy and club's philosophy is made playing leage games every week.

We shouldn't adjust our tactics to win a cup or EL?

That's arrogance, we can tweak and twist our tactics till ole goes bald and we still aren't guaranteed a win, let alone trophies.

You're simply saying Ole can tweak and win the EL if he wants to

 

[Maluco]

We should improve with adding 3 or 4 players in the summer. I am not saying we shouldn't adjust our tactics a bit for a game or 2 if it's to win the cup or EL but it shouldn't be our philosophy and club's philosophy is made playing leage games every week.

This is madness! We are 2 points ahead of Sheffield United, 3 ahead of Crystal Palace and are as close to an average Chelsea side in 4th as we are to Southampton and Newcastle.

Im sorry, but even withstanding injuries, United’s team is far, far better than any of those aforementioned teams.

We are absolutely miles away from tweaking anything to win a cup. We have just been embarrassed in our own stadium by our neighbors.

I can see the idea and intentions behind the support for Ole. I would love him to be a visionary and have clear ideas and visible direction for the club and how we play football, but at the same time, how much longer do we have to wait for any sign of this on the pitch?

This post worries me, as it is bordering on delusion. Tweaking to win a cup? We are miles away. And 2-3 players under this coaching set up won’t make a difference.

 

[Snuffkin]

The young players are holding the club up. The coaching is not the problem. The problem is disinterested senior players who can't be coached or motivated.

 

[Judas]

The young players are holding the club up. The coaching is not the problem. The problem is disinterested senior players who can't be coached or motivated.

List them.

 

[Snuffkin]

List them.

Martial, pogba, matic, Jones, Shaw, Lingard,

 

[Fosu-Mens]

List them.

Disinterested? More like incompetent.

 

[Foxbatt]

Sky1981 and Malu has very competently argued the case. You simply cannot win the PL at one go most of the time. Yes Leicester did it but then they had a very competent manager who can tinker the team too. He got the team to play what fits the players.
Everyone agrees that we need better players. No one is denying that. What a lot of us are saying that properly coached and properly set up with the right tactics this current team has the ability to play a lot better.
When Ole took over as an acting manager and started winning games we all hoped that he was the man and has the ability and capacity to coach this United side to better things. After all the team he took over was 2nd the previous season. All could see that we needed a quality midfield player as the first priority. But all he did was sell two midfield players who are very important to the squad and also our top scorer and bought a defender and a winger.
That shows that passing football was not a priority for him at all. He wanted quick counter attacks. It worked when other teams let us have the space. It does not work when they don't. Now it does not work when other tactics are applied to counter that too.
This kind of planning does not work anymore. Any team now knows how we play. They will sit back. Also our set pieces are so bad too and other teams have the capacity to counter attack us too. Our central defence is too slow too to play that kind of football. In plain language Ole got found out as a one trick pony.
Honestly at this moment in time I cannot see us finishing in 4th. I see us at 7th or 8th.

 

[Velvet Revolver]

This is the point I am making since Ole was signed as the Manager. He needs to adjust his tactics to the players he has and not try to fit the players to the system. Lingard will never be a KDB and Martial never an Aguero.
Now he has really disappointed me by saying that Tiki taka tappy football is not for him and he wants to play real football. Either he is delusional or he has no idea that times have changed and he is living in medieval times.

He is.

His quotes about following SAF and united way etc etc. it's all a reference and reverence to a past, while all other teams are looking at the future

 

[Velvet Revolver]

What you're saying is good for a lower ranked team, but what's the point in adjusting the system to the players we have if they're not good enough for the club and most will be gone in 3 years' time? If we adjusted for what we have now we'd play like a midtable team that maybe manages a EL spot. Let's build the way we want to play and scrap those who can't manage it, and that's like 60% of the team right now. It's gonna be a string of poor results while we do it but it is with a larger picture in mind, not immediate results. Adjusting to poor football in order to scrape up 5 more points come end of the season means nothing if we keep doing it for the next 5 years! The only time you accept sh*t football is when you are down in relegation zone but that's not a worry for us so lets build for the team we want to have not adjust for the team we currently have.

On your other point, tiki taka is not for us, no English team ever really implemented it and lasted with it. Pep's City tries to do it, Arsenal may have been the closest to it, but even they had some British intensity in their play. Tika taka means you play with a lot of patience in your game and we don't really do that, nor I am particulary fussed about being able to reproduce something unnatural to us. If I was to pick the team that I'd emulate outside of England it'd be that Bayern team that won CL. They had intensity and efficiency, they didn't care about how many passes they string togheter, they were all about the result. That mentality is a lot closer to the fabric of our club. You need to remember that Barcelona developed a certain style of play since the 70's and it wasn't all winning during that time, it's also more suited to their way of thinking. We had winning teams without tika taka and we'll have them again.

Counter attacking at home against teams is exactly what a lower ranked team's tactics is. in fact we have gone so low that teams in relegation zone are playing better 'real' football than us.

 

[Wolfmother]

Sky1981 and Malu has very competently argued the case. You simply cannot win the PL at one go most of the time. Yes Leicester did it but then they had a very competent manager who can tinker the team too. He got the team to play what fits the players.
Everyone agrees that we need better players. No one is denying that. What a lot of us are saying that properly coached and properly set up with the right tactics this current team has the ability to play a lot better.
When Ole took over as an acting manager and started winning games we all hoped that he was the man and has the ability and capacity to coach this United side to better things. After all the team he took over was 2nd the previous season. All could see that we needed a quality midfield player as the first priority. But all he did was sell two midfield players who are very important to the squad and also our top scorer and bought a defender and a winger.
That shows that passing football was not a priority for him at all. He wanted quick counter attacks. It worked when other teams let us have the space. It does not work when they don't. Now it does not work when other tactics are applied to counter that too.
This kind of planning does not work anymore. Any team now knows how we play. They will sit back. Also our set pieces are so bad too and other teams have the capacity to counter attack us too. Our central defence is too slow too to play that kind of football. In plain language Ole got found out as a one trick pony.
Honestly at this moment in time i cannot see us finishing in 4th. I see us at 7th or 8th.

Both Pep and Klopp argued against what you are suggesting. I probably dont need to say again that Ole did study under Klopp and Mulensteen..
But. Both Klopp and Pep has made their case that they didnt suit their style to the players at their desposial, but rather kept going with their philosophies and signing players accordingly. Took both of them some time, and they where shit at much like Ole is now. Only, not from their own fans. Ole has never been a counter attacking manager, but he is missing a few pieces in his team, dont you think?
How someone can say Fellaini is important in any aspect is beyond me. And even to suggest Ole sold Herrera is either ignorance or agenda.
Ever stopped to think this is step one in a rebuild? But we agree on finishing 7 or 8. i said a much pre season. And that was based on the squad. Not Ole..

 

[Foxbatt]

Both Pep and Klopp argued against what you are suggesting. I probably dont need to say again that Ole did study under Klopp and Mulensteen..
But. Both Klopp and Pep has made their case that they didnt suit their style to the players at their desposial, but rather kept going with their philosophies and signing players accordingly. Took both of them some time, and they where shit at much like Ole is now. Only, not from their own fans. Ole has never been a counter attacking manager, but he is missing a few pieces in his team, dont you think?
How someone can say Fellaini is important in any aspect is beyond me. And even to suggest Ole sold Herrera is either ignorance or agenda.
Ever stopped to think this is step one in a rebuild? But we agree on finishing 7 or 8. i said a much pre season. And that was based on the squad. Not Ole..

So did Bruce, Robson and Hughes and Ince and many others. Now Mulensteen has been known to be a decent coach but Rene himself would not claim to be a top coach. His own gigs has been failures. Pep doesn't have to change much because he is only the coach really and City has the set up the way Spanish clubs have before Pep came over. They never were shit like Ole is or has been always.
Pep won so many trophies including the CL. Klopp won so many trophies including the Bundesliga and CL Final and now of course the CL itself. Klopp was one of the most upcoming managers in the World. What has Ole won? The Norwegian League. He may as well won the San Marino league or the the league in Malta.
Ole was the one who culled the squad. I guess you are a new comer to Manchester United? We do not accept mediocrity at Manchester United. We may not win but we try to be the best and to get the best managers. Yes Woodward has failed again in not going for the top managers. Ole had the credit till last summer to get things going and then he fecked up.
Don't be ruddy ridiculous. No one is going to believe anything you say when you compare Klopp, Pep to Ole Gunnar.

 

[KekiZeki]

What are they?

2 midfielders, one or 2 winger/striker type players, another quality player in some area, I don't have all the answers.

This is madness! We are 2 points ahead of Sheffield United, 3 ahead of Crystal Palace and are as close to an average Chelsea side in 4th as we are to Southampton and Newcastle.

Im sorry, but even withstanding injuries, United’s team is far, far better than any of those aforementioned teams.

We are absolutely miles away from tweaking anything to win a cup. We have just been embarrassed in our own stadium by our neighbors.

I can see the idea and intentions behind the support for Ole. I would love him to be a visionary and have clear ideas and visible direction for the club and how we play football, but at the same time, how much longer do we have to wait for any sign of this on the pitch?

This post worries me, as it is bordering on delusion. Tweaking to win a cup? We are miles away. And 2-3 players under this coaching set up won’t make a difference.

What has this team done to warrant such high praises? We're better than Sheffield but they're not consistently top 8. They match us at our worst.
If that second place Mourinho won while City were winning it comfortably and all other top 4 teams played European finals was such a big deal why sack him then? He didn't leave then but at his 4'th season when it usually implodes for him and he leaves a deflated team behind.

Much changins is still needed!

This is madness! We are 2 points ahead of Sheffield United, 3 ahead of Crystal Palace and are as close to an average Chelsea side in 4th as we are to Southampton and Newcastle.

Im sorry, but even withstanding injuries, United’s team is far, far better than any of those aforementioned teams.

We are absolutely miles away from tweaking anything to win a cup. We have just been embarrassed in our own stadium by our neighbors.

I can see the idea and intentions behind the support for Ole. I would love him to be a visionary and have clear ideas and visible direction for the club and how we play football, but at the same time, how much longer do we have to wait for any sign of this on the pitch?

This post worries me, as it is bordering on delusion. Tweaking to win a cup? We are miles away. And 2-3 players under this coaching set up won’t make a difference.

Yes, we are better than those teams that's why we can consistently be 6'th, 7'th or 8'th with this team but the clubs you mention only get to do it in some of their better seasons before they drop off.
My point is those type of rankings are not good enough for us, this is why we need to add more. We are better than those teams but not by that much. It's fine margins when you get to the top but we're far from the top, and consistently far off. We need to replace a lot of players who are past it, let youngsters who can improve to the needed level to stay, move others on and buy players to fill positions we need improving. It's a lot of things to do for a manager to get it done in under a season.

Be realistic, we're not that good anymore. We can shout at the manager, at Woodward or whoever we want to blame but our team is couple of stand out players in a lot of mediocre ones and it all costs us a lot in wages. Even our stand-out players are not performing well consistently as they expected better when joining United. This needs addressing.

Good news is, we do have the money and the capacity to improve it all but we need to go through a lot of downsizing first. We can't really expect any manager to go out and say his team is shit. Mourinho did though, but no sensible manager will because he needs to sell a lot of our players to the highest bidder and you won't attract any buyers by claiming half of your team are not worth their wages.