I don't think anyone ever suggested otherwise. That being said, one thread can discuss pace. Another thread can discuss movement and tactics, and another one crossing. I think you get the point. I doubt anyone would argue that you only need sprinters in a team - most agree that Carrick and Scholes were decent footballers. There was plenty of discussion on the subject of crossing and tactics under Moyes for instance.
Lack of pace despite having it in our squad
- Thread starter tomaldinho1
- Start date
Completely agree, absolutely farcical. Getting rid of Zaha, Nani, Welbeck, Hernandez, Rafael and Michael Keane and then complaining about his team without having a complete squad was ridiculous and we're still paying for it today. It would have been much better for Jose to start to build with those guys in the squad. Maybe even RVP as a mentor also.
Maybe think of it more in terms of acceration with and without the ball than just who is faster. Lukaku is probably amongst the fastest PL players over 100m but how often in football will he get that much distance to hit full pelt? It's about dynamism over ~10m and being good enough technically to control the ball when receiving it and dribbling at speed.People are so obsessed with pace
The fact is, if we play a front three of Martial, Lukaku and Rashford, I think we have the fastest trio in the league. Rashford is at least as fast as Salah (overrated in terms of downright speed, outpaced by Van Anholdt), Martial is faster than Mane (who looks to have lost a yard) and Lukaku is a lot faster than Firmino. It's probably about the same for City, though Sane might be a tad quicker than Martial - though he's been outpaced by a 30 something Valencia a few times.
Lukaku is perfect for a counter attacking team as no defender will catch him at full pelt - remember that run against Chelsea in the 90th minute? Martial and Rashford would then provide the speed and dribbling on the wings. However, for some reason, our players just stop working when played on the right. It makes no sense. Rashford, for instance, has bags of speed, can dribble, is decent with both feet and actually has a very good cross on him - sounds perfect for the right wing, right?
We have plenty of fast players. Put all players together, I would argue we are one of the fastest. Our fullbacks are plenty fast; our centre backs with Smalling and Bailly are rapid. Our midfield with Pogba and Fred are quick. Only slow player out there is Matic. The problem is the way we play. Scholes and Carrick were slow, but they made us play quick football. Pogba can run faster, but he always takes extra touches compared to say Carrick. That is our biggest problem, imo - our somewhat lethargic approach to moving the ball around, not the actual running.
Aguero is much slower than Lukaku over 100m but he's so explosive over those first few yards he's a nightmare to mark. Couple that with him having an infinitely better touch than Lukaku and he is deadly around the box.
I would love to see a Rashford LW - Martial CF - Mane type signing RW next season. That might annoy some of the Lukaku fans but I just don't see him as an elite player whereas I truly think Martial could be one.
I agree that Lukaku is not very nimble, but very few tall and big players are. As someone else pointed out, he's still faster and more explosive than Lewandowski, Costa, Kane, Benzema, Cavani etc etc. You just seem to prefer one type of player. Aguero is far from as explosive as he once was, and so he has adapted his game and is almost better for it. Agree completely regarding his touch - brilliant! I'm not sure a striker needs to be nimble and agile if the players around him create enough space.
While it's true individually as a collection it often contradicts.
When you control the game and the opponent defends you will have little opportunity to hurt them with pace. When you play counter attack space is abundant but possession is
For a formation to work it needs a proper player in the system, pacey wingers needs a solid fullback to cover them, you can't play wide winger with 3 cbs. And many other things i don't know about. Changing how our widemen plays will need to alter how our fullbacks play and in turn changes our midfield approach.
For one player to change their approach to the game the whole team must adapt as well. Herein is the big problem. You have pacey winger but no fullback. You have solid midfield but no winger. Sometimes you have 2 different type of forward. Sometimes to attack means your backline is exposed. And you can't really play a possesive football without proper footballer on every line. This is where personnel availability starts to matter.
It really isnt as simple as "why we dont play with more (x)?"
Replace x with 3cbs, pace, pogba as widemen, martial on the right, etc.
As others have said, we need to move the ball quickly, 1 and 2 touches, take risks and have the mentality to get to goal as quickly as possible. Basically in an attacking sense we are lacking instruction and direction.
I'd love to see effective counter attacking football back at United. Killing teams off as they grow into the game, that sh*t scares teams, that's what we used to do. Now we look clueless as to where the next goal is coming from. Fred is a good signing towards moving it quicker.
Interestingly I don't think many teams will be inclined to park the bus against us this season, theres a demand for attacking football all over the league and teams think they can have a real go at us so an effective counter attacking system could reap rewards.
I'd love to see effective counter attacking football back at United. Killing teams off as they grow into the game, that sh*t scares teams, that's what we used to do. Now we look clueless as to where the next goal is coming from. Fred is a good signing towards moving it quicker.
Interestingly I don't think many teams will be inclined to park the bus against us this season, theres a demand for attacking football all over the league and teams think they can have a real go at us so an effective counter attacking system could reap rewards.
And a player isn't necessarily able to alter his game. I sometimes wonder if people actually played sports, altering your game is pretty difficult and your instinctive ways are generally linked to physical characteristics and even if you can alter your physique, habits are burned into your mind after thousands of repetitions.
We lack width, all our 'wide' player bar Martial always occupy the middle of the pitch rather than stretching the play. You look at Mata and Sanchez and often you'll see them occupy Pogba or other midfielder space, combine that with our dire fullback situation so we basically have zero threat on the wing.
Mata on the right side is probably the thing I hate the most when watching United (bar Juanfield)
Mata on the right side is probably the thing I hate the most when watching United (bar Juanfield)
agree 100%.
Pace alone is extremely overrated – the team we had against Spurs had enough legs – Probably quicker than their XI. Hilariously enough everyone laughed off Moura as a pace merchant when we were linked with him when he was always much more than that.
Rashford and Martial have played together plenty. Martial doesn’t use his pace – He’s extremely lazy off the ball and makes things easy for defenders. Rashford has also got into the habit of coming short and trying to be Ronaldo when his best attribute was playing on the shoulder of the defence. I’m not going to defend Mourinho too much as they could have been better coached ala Sane and Sterling but the reality is they don’t do nearly enough when they’ve been playing, certainly not of late.
Spurs’ starting XI generally only has Son or Lucas (either or, they rarely start together) and very little else yet they make it work with quality and by allowing the full backs to push on. The biggest issue with Lukaku and a lot of our other forwards is their inability to move the ball with pace – They take too many touches and aren’t sharp enough to pass and move as quickly as other sides, the midfield have this habit too – The pace of one or two players won’t make a difference. The ball needs to move quicker from back to front with more quality. This isn’t a Mourinho trait either as his teams were generally renowned for fast, deadly counter attacks – I just don’t think we have the quality.
Rashford and Martial have played together plenty. Martial doesn’t use his pace – He’s extremely lazy off the ball and makes things easy for defenders. Rashford has also got into the habit of coming short and trying to be Ronaldo when his best attribute was playing on the shoulder of the defence. I’m not going to defend Mourinho too much as they could have been better coached ala Sane and Sterling but the reality is they don’t do nearly enough when they’ve been playing, certainly not of late.
Spurs’ starting XI generally only has Son or Lucas (either or, they rarely start together) and very little else yet they make it work with quality and by allowing the full backs to push on. The biggest issue with Lukaku and a lot of our other forwards is their inability to move the ball with pace – They take too many touches and aren’t sharp enough to pass and move as quickly as other sides, the midfield have this habit too – The pace of one or two players won’t make a difference. The ball needs to move quicker from back to front with more quality. This isn’t a Mourinho trait either as his teams were generally renowned for fast, deadly counter attacks – I just don’t think we have the quality.
We don't move the ball quickly enough. It's that simple.
It was very evident against Tottenham, even during those first 20 minutes. Trying too hard. On the break, you could see how superior they were with Moura unleashed.
To move the ball faster you need to have width. And width in advanced positions. No point in knocking it wide to Valencia, only for him to stop it dead and pass it backwards. The wide players need to be able to run with it, attack the space, beat a man and have a decent final ball. All of our creativity is in the middle, so we end up playing narrow, which is easy to defend against.
Definitely this.
When I see older clips, which United love posting to remind us we were decent, I'm shocked at how quick everything is - the passing, the movement. It's not really pace at all, it's intensity.
We don't move the ball quick enough, the players don't move quick enough (so many passes to players standing still!), we don't make enough forward passes (presume Jose/tactic) and we don't seem to make quick decisions (again, think is Jose/tactic and players told to hold the ball, take the safe option).
It's not about going gung-ho, I'd just like to see a more positive attitude (got to come from Jose) and players definitely need to improve their touch, movement and passing (Jose and players responsibility).
Hope Jose can turn it around, not sure he can OR wants to (not his way?). We're getting left behind tactically and not making the most of the players we have.
Speed of moving the ball and having players who run into space. It's not rocket science. We have a team who do not do either
And it's important to say that intensity doesn't mean that you run at everything and everywhere like an idiot, that's what Alexis Sanchez has been doing and we should never praise that. Players need to be lucid and understand when they need to crank up the pace, which balls they need to chase, understand when to make runs in order to receive the ball or deceive the opponents. One thing that I like about Suarez for example, is that he will play with defenders, sometimes he replaces himself in front of the defense but other times he will replace himself from an offside position, he can make the entire width of the field offside and just pop up in one of the channels, it's important to do these things because it means that CBs will have to look behind, they have to know where their opponent is and if you are always in front of them, you make their job easy and comfortable.
I'm a little bit off topic.
Yes. I agree especially at high level sports.
In sundays league anyone can play anywhere, but at the highest level where every 0.1s counts you really cant afford to shift position or approach of the game every 3 mths
A simple problem yet complicated solution.
In order to do so you need to see better, position yourself better, react better, move better, pass better and faster and more precise, understand your teammate better.
Considering Sanchez does not seem as pacey as he used to be - this leaves us with Lukaku, Martial, Rashford & Lingard.
I'd say all 4 have something in common - they prefer to start centrally before drifting wide in to space (Lingard is good at runs in general). We currently play a very stagnant type of football where our central target man must play quite deep in down - not allowed to run in to space but more to bring other players into space. Our wide players be it martial or Rashford maybe more spacey but are asked to play wide - again making there game relatable to a certain position of the field & no flexibility.
The combination of these players occupying certain positions to bring others in to play rather than actually trying to beat their man heavily reduces the pace because as a poster said - our pace whilst the ball on the feet of the player is low. That's not down to the players we have - that's due to the type of football we play.
We need to start playing Lukaku, Rashford & Martial centrally so they can drift wide or take on players centrally - that choice alone initiates pace on their movement. Making them hold to one position whilst the other player is miles away makes everyone wait for the ball arrive to them.
Our game against spurs first half was better because we had more central players that were ultimately allowed to flex their positions much much more than we usually do.
I'd say all 4 have something in common - they prefer to start centrally before drifting wide in to space (Lingard is good at runs in general). We currently play a very stagnant type of football where our central target man must play quite deep in down - not allowed to run in to space but more to bring other players into space. Our wide players be it martial or Rashford maybe more spacey but are asked to play wide - again making there game relatable to a certain position of the field & no flexibility.
The combination of these players occupying certain positions to bring others in to play rather than actually trying to beat their man heavily reduces the pace because as a poster said - our pace whilst the ball on the feet of the player is low. That's not down to the players we have - that's due to the type of football we play.
We need to start playing Lukaku, Rashford & Martial centrally so they can drift wide or take on players centrally - that choice alone initiates pace on their movement. Making them hold to one position whilst the other player is miles away makes everyone wait for the ball arrive to them.
Our game against spurs first half was better because we had more central players that were ultimately allowed to flex their positions much much more than we usually do.
Yep, other than Giggs, we didn’t even really have particularly rapid individuals in our forward line for ages, post Kanchelskis. Beckham, Cantona, Ruud, Yorke etc.
Sigh. You don't need pace from all your attackers.
Like multiple posters before me have said, it's about moving the ball fast and not the players running fast.
If you can move the ball quick and have intelligence when attacking, you have far more of a chance to score than just 'running fast'.
Like multiple posters before me have said, it's about moving the ball fast and not the players running fast.
If you can move the ball quick and have intelligence when attacking, you have far more of a chance to score than just 'running fast'.
We had Giggs, Rooney, Nani, Ronaldo, Evra, Valencia, etc. We have always had fast players, but they have mostly been out wide. I don't think Ferguson thought about speed when assembling a central midfield for instance. I think it's about balance, which I think we lack. Our midfield don't play the quick passes into space, and our wide players don't like to stay wide.
Salah is nothing special when it comes to top speed. His acceleration over the first few yards is the best in the league though.
Oh right, cheers, it's a new one on me
Well, it's not common in the english world. I think that I have only heard it among italian and french.
Ed is the cause. He's causing all our fast players to be slow. It's all Ed's fault - anyone who can't see this is blinded by Mourinho's bullshit or something.
I'm thinking of the front three more as a unit, as I said I didn't want this to become an anti Lukaku thread (although I would happily post in one!) With the ball at his feet, I'd argue he is slower and less dynamic than all the above (bar maybe Lew & Cavani) but that's neither here nor there.
My OP is more about the 3 men together and the need for pace (particularly when you play counter attack) - where we have started Sanchez - Lukaku - Mata we just don't really have any. It's also a criminal misuse of Mata - who should be central or just on the bench.
No Grinta is fine, now it's been explained to me
-----------
A mezzala, or a half-winger, is a player who is positioned on the wing despite not really possessing the typical attributes of a winger. ... This means orbiting more centrally or offering a greater offensive slant at the expense of coverage - seldom is a mezzala deployed for defensive purposes.
http://www.footballitaliano.co.uk/p...part-3-1-terminology-tactical-deployment.html
You never stop learning.....
To be fair to Valencia there was an instance in the second half of the Spurs game where he made a lung busting run past two of their players only to look up and see that no one was available for a pass. It's cohesion that's the problem.
I honestly first saw that term in the last edition of Football Manager.No Grinta is fine, now it's been explained to me
-----------
A mezzala, or a half-winger, is a player who is positioned on the wing despite not really possessing the typical attributes of a winger. ... This means orbiting more centrally or offering a greater offensive slant at the expense of coverage - seldom is a mezzala deployed for defensive purposes.
http://www.footballitaliano.co.uk/p...part-3-1-terminology-tactical-deployment.html
You never stop learning.....
All the players you mentioned are better goal scorers than lukaku though
That was an exception though. He's really poor as a rwb
We get the ball to the final third very quickly only to complete fluff the execution.
Our fullbacks get into good positions constantly only to look up and have no options. It seems that Fred is solving this problem as he is VERY willing to make supporting runs on the counter attack. Lukaku gets the ball in the final third but is either surrounded by 5 players or is staring into the sky as he receives the ball.
I think there is a cultural problem at the club, where players simply do not have the right attitude, they simply do not work hard enough. It can't be the manager's instructions because counter attacking is quintessential to the manager's style of play. I think it is a shifting of responsibility where players choose not to attack because they don't want to get back into position. This attitude also manifested under LVG where players didn't want to attack and preferred passing sideways because it was the easy option.
LVG and Mourinho didnt play slow and labourous football with other clubs. LVG teams were generally very creative while Mourinho teams were lightning quick on the counter attack. Both managers seemed 'past it' when they came to our club. LVG plays with many of the same principles as Guardiola, Sarri and Tuchel. Mourinho plays with many of the same principles as Simeone and Aleggri. Yet we looked completely different from their previous teams.
Our fullbacks get into good positions constantly only to look up and have no options. It seems that Fred is solving this problem as he is VERY willing to make supporting runs on the counter attack. Lukaku gets the ball in the final third but is either surrounded by 5 players or is staring into the sky as he receives the ball.
I think there is a cultural problem at the club, where players simply do not have the right attitude, they simply do not work hard enough. It can't be the manager's instructions because counter attacking is quintessential to the manager's style of play. I think it is a shifting of responsibility where players choose not to attack because they don't want to get back into position. This attitude also manifested under LVG where players didn't want to attack and preferred passing sideways because it was the easy option.
LVG and Mourinho didnt play slow and labourous football with other clubs. LVG teams were generally very creative while Mourinho teams were lightning quick on the counter attack. Both managers seemed 'past it' when they came to our club. LVG plays with many of the same principles as Guardiola, Sarri and Tuchel. Mourinho plays with many of the same principles as Simeone and Aleggri. Yet we looked completely different from their previous teams.
Yesterday Liv against Leicester, during first have LC got one shot on target. That play was initiated by Maguire's fine through pass accurately picking his player in compact midfield.
Pace is important but we currently lack players who can launch attacks with accurate through ball. Rashford, Martial can run fast but not reliably with the ball when pressed by opposition.
Pace is important but we currently lack players who can launch attacks with accurate through ball. Rashford, Martial can run fast but not reliably with the ball when pressed by opposition.
Pogba, Fred, Matic should be able to, but they aren't doing it consistently enough for whatever reason. Jose has to take responsibility for that.