Lamine Yamal

Christ alive, I really am staggered! So many couldn't see what we had. The talent was there in abundance. The only question was whether he could put it all together. Must admit, I'm finding all of this quite amusing.
That's the point. The ability to put it all together is talent. Before 2006 I feel the majority of people felt he was gonna be another Denilson/Quaresma, insame physical and technical tools but lacking the brain to make those effective

Neymar, for example, was clearly a far more effective player from his debut, hence looking more talented at an earlier age(Neymar absolutely did not look more talented through the rest of their careers). Cristiano is an unusual case among his Top10-AT peers in that he didn't roll off the factory line with genius level ability/football IQ. He had the raw tools but it took him several seasons to learn how to use them. In hindsight, he turned out to be a way bigger talent than he looked early on
 
I am still watching the boy honestly. Yes, he is world class, no doubt. But it is La Liga. Even Antony is looking decent over there.

I do not know. Maybe scoring loads of goals just boosts your confidence and sharpens your game. He keeps getting better and better, but I still feel like he has it a bit too easy in Spain.

Just my thoughts though.
 
This myth that Ronaldo wasn’t as talented is extremely weird. As if he doesn’t have a next to perfect physicality for the sport and as if he wasn’t supremely technically gifted.
Where does this come from? Is this all so people can pretend his success is only possible because he worked oh so much harder than any other player?
It really depends on role, but, a look at the best players ever tells us that no, he did not have next to perfect physicality for the sport

Messi did
 
It's a tough one. I think Pirlo was a little more creative. Xavi could run box to box better. Pirlo would be a better number 10 IMO.

The one thing we can agree on, in their successful periods, each were the brains in the team;

Scholes, Xavi, Pirlo.

Without those players, I'm convinced each of the teams wouldn't have been as successful as they were (during very dominant periods).
I think you can include Alonso in that company.
 
That's the point. The ability to put it all together is talent. Before 2006 I feel the majority of people felt he was gonna be another Denilson/Quaresma, insame physical and technical tools but lacking the brain to make those effective

Neymar, for example, was clearly a far more effective player from his debut, hence looking more talented at an earlier age(Neymar absolutely did not look more talented through the rest of their careers). Cristiano is an unusual case among his Top10-AT peers in that he didn't roll off the factory line with genius level ability/football IQ. He had the raw tools but it took him several seasons to learn how to use them. In hindsight, he turned out to be a way bigger talent than he looked early on
And he did put it all together, so by that logic, he did have the talent. I'm not contesting effectiveness, efficiency or consistency from an early age. What I do heavily dispute is that the elite World-Class talent was never there. Honestly, you could see it in spades. It wasn't always pretty or productive, but right from the off at United you could see it.

I agree that he surpassed what all of us deemed possible for him. However, I genuinely believed right off the bat that he had the natural talent to potentially become the best winger in the world.
 
It really depends on role, but, a look at the best players ever tells us that no, he did not have next to perfect physicality for the sport

Messi did
Oh come on. Ronaldo is a physical marvel. The man can jump like two metres high for headers. He has immense strength and speed. Pretending that his body isn’t made for football is absurd.
 
It really depends on role, but, a look at the best players ever tells us that no, he did not have next to perfect physicality for the sport

Messi did
For pure goal scoring he did, faster, stronger, taller.
 
Yamal is the greatest of all time.
 
This myth that Ronaldo wasn’t as talented is extremely weird. As if he doesn’t have a next to perfect physicality for the sport and as if he wasn’t supremely technically gifted.
Where does this come from? Is this all so people can pretend his success is only possible because he worked oh so much harder than any other player?

Wasn't as talented compared to who though?

It's not a myth that there's players that were more talented than him.
 
And I don't see how you can claim it. See, it works both ways.
I mean it doesn't. I can substantiate the claims.

There's not a single thing Ronaldo does better with the ball than Messi does besides being slightly better at penalties and he's better aerially.
 
I mean it doesn't. I can substantiate the claims.

There's not a single thing Ronaldo does better with the ball than Messi does besides being slightly better at penalties and he's better aerially.
You're a Messi zealot mate, I'm not getting into a weird Messi Ronaldo debate, it's boring. You stated as fact that Messi AND R9 and Neymar were clearly more talented players. It's not a fact, no matter how often you repeat it.
 
You're a Messi zealot mate, I'm not getting into a weird Messi Ronaldo debate, it's boring. You stated as fact that Messi AND R9 and Neymar were clearly more talented players. It's not a fact, no matter how often you repeat it.

Messi is my favorite player, but I'm not a zealot for thinking Messi is clearly more talented :lol:

Plenty of others will share the same sentiment.

As for the bold, sure. But what does Ronaldo do better with the ball compared to R9?

I'll leave Messi and Neymar out of it.
 
Messi is my favorite player, but I'm not a zealot for thinking Messi is clearly more talented :lol:

Plenty of others will share the same sentiment.

As for the bold, sure. But what does Ronaldo do better with the ball compared to R9?

I'll leave Messi and Neymar out of it.
Showing your hand there, when you tactically narrow the definition of talent. But I'm glad you agree that it's not a fact. I don't mean to be a dick but it annoys me when people try to frame their own opinions as accepted facts
 
Showing your hand there, when you tactically narrow the definition of talent. But I'm glad you agree that it's not a fact. I don't mean to be a dick but it annoys me when people try to frame their own opinions as accepted facts

How is that tactically narrowing it? Someone's physical talents shouldn't be used to judge footballing talent in my opinion. And R9 was a physical specimen either way.

And you keep deflecting the actual question.
 
I dont agree interms of dribbling either. Dribbling isn’t just numbers, it is also about effectiveness. Cristiano's dribbling from 18 to 20 years wasn't constructive at all and when it did become constructive (the tricks were still pointless), the numbers were easily below those of Yamal.


Xavi absolutely could dribble not over long distances but in the tightest of spaces. Just watch the 2-6 demolition of the team you support at the Bernebau.

Messi is an advanced number 10, Xavi a central midfielder. The passes Messi typically produces are very different from those that Xavi did and both were the best at their respective craft.
Yeah, I don't disagree, but I don't understand the relevance to what I said? It's not just a Messi and Xavi conversation when it comes to great passers.
 
I am still watching the boy honestly. Yes, he is world class, no doubt. But it is La Liga. Even Antony is looking decent over there.

I do not know. Maybe scoring loads of goals just boosts your confidence and sharpens your game. He keeps getting better and better, but I still feel like he has it a bit too easy in Spain.

Just my thoughts though.
You realise he earned global recognition outside La Liga, right? He’s come to real prominence due to the Euros; what he’s doing since is just a continuation.
 
How is that tactically narrowing it? Someone's physical talents shouldn't be used to judge footballing talent in my opinion. And R9 was a physical specimen either way.

And you keep deflecting the actual question.
I'm not deflecting,b I'm just not answering the specific question that you want answering because it doesn't get to the heart of the actual question. Ultimately 'talent' is a slippery concept that eludes easy definition and it's one to which everyone, you included, bring their own definitions and prejudices too. Which is why, as I said, answers will always be subjective.
 
Ronaldo's talent is being massively downplayed. He was a world-class talent and it was apparent right from the beginning that he had the potential to be the best winger in the world. As it happens, he completely obliterated that lofty 'ceiling' and became one of the greatest players of all time.
It’s not though, is it? Your issue here is relativity and context within that. You’re in a thread about a child who is on par with the greatest who have played football at 16 and 17yrs old; everything else has to be taken within that sphere and at the beginning, there was absolutely no way anyone thought C.Ronaldo was going to go on to achieve what he did, whilst with someone like Yamal, injury and distraction would seem to be the only things that could prevent him from going on to be an all-time great - not “just” a world class - player.

The scaling and obvious talent are not in the same category, which is what seems to be your issue.
 
Lamine Yamal is a player who combines the sheer brilliance of the street game with the efficiency of modern football. A precocious talent of undeniable proportions, he will bring a lot of joy to the teams he plays for. Rarely in the history of the game have we seen players show such an exquisite level of maturity at such a tender age.
 
It’s not though, is it? Your issue here is relativity and context within that. You’re in a thread about a child who is on par with the greatest who have played football at 16 and 17yrs old; everything else has to be taken within that sphere and at the beginning, there was absolutely no way anyone thought C.Ronaldo was going to go on to achieve what he did, whilst with someone like Yamal, injury and distraction would seem to be the only things that could prevent him from going on to be an all-time great - not “just” a world class - player.

The scaling and obvious talent are not in the same category, which is what seems to be your issue.
Yamal is a much better player than Ronaldo was at 17. He's incredibly consistent. However, Ronaldo displayed World Class talent as a teenager. Not always consistently, but it was very evident. For me, that is indisputable.
 
Oh come on. Ronaldo is a physical marvel. The man can jump like two metres high for headers. He has immense strength and speed. Pretending that his body isn’t made for football is absurd.
The 3 best players of all time shared the exact same body type, and similar physical tools. Cristiano did not have that body type, and while he did have amazing physical tools, other than elevation and top speed, he fell short of those 3
 
Yamal is a much better player than Ronaldo was at 17. He's incredibly consistent. However, Ronaldo displayed World Class talent as a teenager. Not always consistently, but it was very evident. For me, that is indisputable.
If you pull up threads from the time, that wasn’t a universal opinion. I would say the consensus was he had the potential to go on to be that if he put his game together; it wasn’t something wild or out there that the developed version of him could perform as he did 2006-‘07. After that, I’ll call 99% who now proclaim he’d go to that kind of next level, people who don’t expect to be asked to show proof of their musings from the time.
 
There's different levels, even in the world-class tag. Ronaldo clearly had world-class talent in the sense that he was one of the most talented players in the world, but the likes of Messi and R9 were up there amongst the most talented players of all time. Cristiano wasn't at that level.

Ronaldo made the absolute most of his talent, then went a bit further through sheer determination, so he ended up being a better player than almost all the players that had even more talent than he did.
 
If you pull up threads from the time, that wasn’t a universal opinion. I would say the consensus was he had the potential to go on to be that if he put his game together; it wasn’t something wild or out there that the developed version of him could perform as he did 2006-‘07. After that, I’ll call 99% who now proclaim he’d go to that kind of next level, people who don’t expect to be asked to show proof of their musings from the time.
I was confident that he had the talent to become the best winger in the world. The natural heir to Figo. I had no right to expect anything beyond that, nor did I even consider the possibility.
 
Guys, this thread is about Lamine Yamal at 17 years old.

Where was Cristiano Ronaldo at 17 years old? He was at Sporting and played a few months for United. In his first season in the Premier he scored 6 goals and had 6 assists.

Lamine Yamal has 13 goals and 17 assists this season, which has not even ended, for his club and won the Euro last summer being a key player.

So we can be confident that Yamal is a far more composed player than Ronaldo at 17 years old and nobody should disagree.
 
It’s not though, is it? Your issue here is relativity and context within that. You’re in a thread about a child who is on par with the greatest who have played football at 16 and 17yrs old; everything else has to be taken within that sphere and at the beginning, there was absolutely no way anyone thought C.Ronaldo was going to go on to achieve what he did, whilst with someone like Yamal, injury and distraction would seem to be the only things that could prevent him from going on to be an all-time great - not “just” a world class - player.

The scaling and obvious talent are not in the same category, which is what seems to be your issue.
There is a video somewhere (I've got to try and find it) of young Ronaldo, Anderson and Rio Ferdinand being interviewed.

The three were asked 'who is the greatest player of all time?' Anderson and Ferdinand said 'Maradona' and Ronaldo said 'me'.

When Ronaldo said that, the other two laughed at him.

Now we could look at this as a 'they all laughed at Wilbur and his brother, they're not laughing now' type feather in Ronaldo's cap, and it is anazing in a sense that he sort of manifested his destiny in that way, and 'spoke it into existence.' He's still trying to do that now, l o l.

But I think it illustrates a more salient point, which is that Ronaldo's elevation to the pantheon is a 'triumph of the will' scenario, where he's kind of clawed his way into the discussion, and he absolutely did not have the level of footballing ability that suggested that he would one day be regarded as the greatest player of all time. You're absolutely right that no one at the start could have forseen what he would achieve in his career (apart from Ronaldo himself, of course).

This is not the same as saying that he had no ability or negligible ability, which Ronaldo fans huffily like to make out that people are saying when they make statements like this. There are many levels to footballing ability and skill.

I often contrast this in my head with someone like Maradona. In the Asif Kapadia doc, you can see him being interviewed in Argentina when he was still a teenager and he is being asked about the comparisons to Pele that are being made.
 
The three were asked 'who is the greatest player of all time?' Anderson and Ferdinand said 'Maradona' and Ronaldo said 'me'.

When Ronaldo said that, the other two laughed at him.
I remember this. Ronaldo was the best player in the world at the time. It was obviously a bit cheeky of him, but he had achieved a hell of a lot already at this point.
 
I remember this. Ronaldo was the best player in the world at the time. It was obviously a bit cheeky of him, but he had achieved a hell of a lot already at this point.
I cannot remember exactly when it was, TBH. I will have to try and find it.
 
There is a video somewhere (I've got to try and find it) of young Ronaldo, Anderson and Rio Ferdinand being interviewed.

The three were asked 'who is the greatest player of all time?' Anderson and Ferdinand said 'Maradona' and Ronaldo said 'me'.

When Ronaldo said that, the other two laughed at him.

Now we could look at this as a 'they all laughed at Wilbur and his brother, they're not laughing now' type feather in Ronaldo's cap, and it is anazing in a sense that he sort of manifested his destiny in that way, and 'spoke it into existence.' He's still trying to do that now, l o l.

But I think it illustrates a more salient point, which is that Ronaldo's elevation to the pantheon is a 'triumph of the will' scenario, where he's kind of clawed his way into the discussion, and he absolutely did not have the level of footballing ability that suggested that he would one day be regarded as the greatest player of all time. You're absolutely right that no one at the start could have forseen what he would achieve in his career (apart from Ronaldo himself, of course).

This is not the same as saying that he had no ability or negligible ability, which Ronaldo fans huffily like to make out that people are saying when they make statements like this. There are many levels to footballing ability and skill.

I often contrast this in my head with someone like Maradona. In the Asif Kapadia doc, you can see him being interviewed in Argentina when he was still a teenager and he is being asked about the comparisons to Pele that are being made.
C.Ronaldo’s story is the most epic of the lot, for me. All those he is now in the company of as a great were expected to go on to be what they became, or were anointed as such as teenagers. The guy is a living movie for what he started out as contrasted to what he became.

He was routinely mocked and called a show pony across social media etc as youngster, but there came a real point where that tone died a death and then he was on his way to becoming universally acknowledged. That in itself is a phenomenal achievement, but he went further and did more, and more. I wonder if a story like that will happen again in my lifetime - I expect we’ll see more Neo’s from the matrix who are cut from the cloth of the kind of players I’m talking about, perhaps 1, 2 or 3 over 50yrs, but another like C.Ronaldo, I really wouldn’t bet on it.
 
C.Ronaldo’s story is the most epic of the lot, for me. All those he is now in the company of as a great were expected to go on to be what they became, or were anointed as such as teenagers. The guy is a living movie for what he started out as contrasted to what he became.

He was routinely mocked and called a show pony across social media etc as youngster, but there came a real point where that tone died a death and then he was on his way to becoming universally acknowledged. That in itself is a phenomenal achievement, but he went further and did more, and more. I wonder if a story like that will happen again in my lifetime - I expect we’ll see more Neo’s from the matrix who are cut from the cloth of the kind of players I’m talking about, perhaps 1, 2 or 3 over 50yrs, but another like C.Ronaldo, I really wouldn’t bet on it.
Yes, this is why he inspires so many people. If Ronaldo wanted to be an Anthony Robbins type motivational guru, he could easily do it. If he wanted to do a Tom Brady thing where he gave pointers on what you should eat, etc., millions would lap it up. Remember that advert where he said that he likes to 'set goals' and then go after them? This is what people love, they're like 'I should do that, I should be focused in going after my dreams.'

As you say this does differentiate him from many other great players. But the issue for me is that I know real footballing genius when I see it. And what I want to see is genius. I'm not interested in graft (though obviously, all these guys work hard), I'm not interested in goal setting, I'm not interested in box ticking. I'm interested in Magic. Sorcery. Wizardry.

Again, Ronaldo has a lot of skill, no one is saying that he doesn't. And in his early days, he was a box of tricks. But in watching him, it always felt like he was putting loads of effort into those tricks and moves, like he was trying really hard. It felt forced and over-practised. It didn't feel like what happened when you watched Maradona or Ronaldinho where it felt much more natural and fluid, the tricks, the skills. Like they came out of the womb doing it. It's hard to explain, but there is a difference.
 
I didn't say he was, I said he was more physically talented for it.

Though he has scored more.
He hasn't. Pele scored more goals and Messi has less goals but more goals per game. Even if you want to take away 500 of Pele's goals ('unofficial'), he still has more goals per game than Ronaldo. Pele scored his ('unofficial') thousandth goal when he was 29. Ronaldo is huffing and puffing towards that figure in a poor league at age 40.

Re the 'perfect body' for football, Ronaldo clearly doesn't have it, because he is too tall. Ideally, you want a lower centre of gravity in a shorter, strong body to give you that balance and manoeuvrability that the very best dribblers and movers with the ball have.

Height helps Ronaldo in the air but Pele was also fantastic in the air, so it's not like he loses anything there. In fact, if I was going to choose a perfect body for football, it would probably be Pele's.
 
I didn't say he was, I said he was more physically talented for it.

Though he has scored more.
If he isn't a better goalscorer, what would make him more physically talented for it?