Lamine Yamal

Kwabs said:
In fact, if I was going to choose a perfect body for football, it would probably be Pele's.
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Yep. Very clearly the best athlete in football history, in terms of how his body type and physicals were optimized for the sport
 
Kwabs said:
He hasn't. Pele scored more goals and Messi has less goals but more goals per game. Even if you want to take away 500 of Pele's goals ('unofficial'), he still has more goals per game than Ronaldo. Pele scored his ('unofficial') thousandth goal when he was 29. Ronaldo is huffing and puffing towards that figure in a poor league at age 40.

Re the 'perfect body' for football, Ronaldo clearly doesn't have it, because he is too tall. Ideally, you want a lower centre of gravity in a shorter, strong body to give you that balance and manoeuvrability that the very best dribblers and movers with the ball have.

Height helps Ronaldo in the air but Pele was also fantastic in the air, so it's not like he loses anything there. In fact, if I was going to choose a perfect body for football, it would probably be Pele's.
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It was Messi Vs Ronaldo. To be the best goalscorer you don't need to be the best dribbler.

Ronaldo was better in the air than Pele.
 
Hammondo said:
It was Messi Vs Ronaldo. To be the best goalscorer you don't need to be the best dribbler.

Ronaldo was better in the air than Pele.
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What is your reasoning for saying that Ronaldo is better in the air than Pele? If he is, the difference is only slight (especially given the gap in height), and Pele is superior in other areas. If you're talking about the ideal football body, then heading is bot the most important thing anyway.

If you're talking about just Messi and Ronaldo then yes, you don't need to be the best dribbler to be the best goalscorer, but I was talking about this mythical 'perfect football' body. And in any case, Messi is arguably a better goalscorer than Ronaldo because he has a better ratio.
 
Hammondo said:
It was Messi Vs Ronaldo. To be the best goalscorer you don't need to be the best dribbler.

Ronaldo was better in the air than Pele.
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So in the official list of greatest ever goalscorers, there 2 guys over 6 feet tall in the top 10
 
Kwabs said:
What is your reasoning for saying that Ronaldo is better in the air than Pele? If he is, the difference is only slight (especially given the gap in height), and Pele is superior in other areas. If you're talking about the ideal football body, then heading is bot the most important thing anyway.

If you're talking about just Messi and Ronaldo then yes, you don't need to be the best dribbler to be the best goalscorer, but I was talking about this mythical 'perfect football' body. And in any case, Messi is arguably a better goalscorer than Ronaldo because he has a better ratio.
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Ronaldo has the highest record jump in history for a footballer. In fact he has 5 of the top 10.

https://www.sportsboom.com/football/highest-jumps-in-the-history-of-football/
 
Kwabs said:
Yes, this is why he inspires so many people. If Ronaldo wanted to be an Anthony Robbins type motivational guru, he could easily do it. If he wanted to do a Tom Brady thing where he gave pointers on what you should eat, etc., millions would lap it up. Remember that advert where he said that he likes to 'set goals' and then go after them? This is what people love, they're like 'I should do that, I should be focused in going after my dreams.'

As you say this does differentiate him from many other great players. But the issue for me is that I know real footballing genius when I see it. And what I want to see is genius. I'm not interested in graft (though obviously, all these guys work hard), I'm not interested in goal setting, I'm not interested in box ticking. I'm interested in Magic. Sorcery. Wizardry.

Again, Ronaldo has a lot of skill, no one is saying that he doesn't. And in his early days, he was a box of tricks. But in watching him, it always felt like he was putting loads of effort into those tricks and moves, like he was trying really hard. It felt forced and over-practised. It didn't feel like what happened when you watched Maradona or Ronaldinho where it felt much more natural and fluid, the tricks, the skills. Like they came out of the womb doing it. It's hard to explain, but there is a difference.
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These days, there is a lot of revisionism regarding young Ronaldo. Ronaldo may have overdribbled a bit and you shouldn't take the English media seriously. Ronaldo was the most expensive teenager in history and his debut was excellent. George Best himself praised Ronaldo and said that was the best Man Utd debut that he saw.

If Ronaldinho came to UTD instead of Ronaldo, he would be also blasted by the English media. Those kind of dribbling maestros and Joga Boga bonita players were more suited for La Liga than EPL. Sure, some of young CR7 tricks were forced but so were Ronaldinho's.

By the time Ronaldo turned 20, he matured more and became the best dribbler in the world for a couple of years. He was a world class dribler in his prime Man Utd years and early Madrid years. His 06/07 season was his best dribbling season. He made 20 dribbles against Benfica, he had a stunning solo goal against Fulham and made that ridiculous zig zag dribbling.

He was also a remarkable free kick taker, his weak foot was amazing and his heading abilities were off charts. He sacrificed a lot of these things to become a goal scoring machine. 11/12 Ronaldo was the best CR7 version abilities wise.

A lot of that has to do with his height and the body shape compared to Messi. Three peat Ronaldo was a goal scoring machine but an inferior player abilities wise compared to 11/12 Ronaldo or 07/08 CR7.
 
Hammondo said:
Ronaldo has the highest record jump in history for a footballer. In fact he has 5 of the top 10.

https://www.sportsboom.com/football/highest-jumps-in-the-history-of-football/
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This is 'recorded' history, and the people in the list are all really recent, from the last 10 years or so. In case you were not aware, Pele also had tremendous leaping ability (measured at 48 inches) and scored 100+ headers (the actual number for Pele is uncertain, and it is complicated by this official/unofficial thing). But there's nothing to say that this is an area where Ronaldo was better to any marked degree.

I found this on X (from a very biased Brazilian fan account, admittedly), which purports to compare the vertical leaps of both players. And although Pele is shorter, he could apparently jump 2 centimetres higher.

Now I have no way of independently verifying this info, but the larger point is that Pele was exceptional in the air, and there is no evidence that Ronaldo was better. Unless you just want to say 'he's taller and therefore he was better', and if that's your argument, well then OK. But it didn't seem to make him vastly more effective in that area.

 
KingEric04 said:
These days, there is a lot of revisionism regarding young Ronaldo. Ronaldo may have overdribbled a bit and you shouldn't take the English media seriously. Ronaldo was the most expensive teenager in history and his debut was excellent. George Best himself praised Ronaldo and said that was the best Man Utd debut that he saw.

If Ronaldinho came to UTD instead of Ronaldo, he would be also blasted by the English media. Those kind of dribbling maestros and Joga Boga bonita players were more suited for La Liga than EPL. Sure, some of young CR7 tricks were forced but so were Ronaldinho's.

By the time Ronaldo turned 20, he matured more and became the best dribbler in the world for a couple of years. He was a world class dribler in his prime Man Utd years and early Madrid years. His 06/07 season was his best dribbling season. He made 20 dribbles against Benfica, he had a stunning solo goal against Fulham and made that ridiculous zig zag dribbling.

He was also a remarkable free kick taker, his weak foot was amazing and his heading abilities were off charts. He sacrificed a lot of these things to become a goal scoring machine. 11/12 Ronaldo was the best CR7 version abilities wise.

A lot of that has to do with his height and the body shape compared to Messi. Three peat Ronaldo was a goal scoring machine but an inferior player abilities wise compared to 11/12 Ronaldo or 07/08 CR7.
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I'm not basing my opinion on his early years on the reports of the media or anything, but on my own recollection. I saw him play. At the start, he just wasn't that good, IMO. That's not being revisionist, that's how it was, as I saw it. It didn't look at all like Yamal looks now. Obviously he improved, and I think his last 3 seasons were the really good ones. But at the start, it was hit and miss and he was very raw.
 
Kwabs said:
This is 'recorded' history, and the people in the list are all really recent, from the last 10 years or so. In case you were not aware, Pele also had tremendous leaping ability (measured at 48 inches) and scored 100+ headers (the actual number for Pele is uncertain, and it is complicated by this official/unofficial thing). But there's nothing to say that this is an area where Ronaldo was better to any marked degree.

I found this on X (from a very biased Brazilian fan account, admittedly), which purports to compare the vertical leaps of both players. And although Pele is shorter, he could apparently jump 2 centimetres higher.

Now I have no way of independently verifying this info, but the larger point is that Pele was exceptional in the air, and there is no evidence that Ronaldo was better. Unless you just want to say 'he's taller and therefore he was better', and if that's your argument, well then OK. But it didn't seem to make him vastly more effective in that area.

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I mean, come on, is there even any point in quoting a tweet about Pele's jump height Vs anyone's from either the twitter account you're quoting or the one it's getting its 'data' from?! Both have pictures of Pele as their avatars FFS.
 
Kwabs said:
This is 'recorded' history, and the people in the list are all really recent, from the last 10 years or so. In case you were not aware, Pele also had tremendous leaping ability (measured at 48 inches) and scored 100+ headers (the actual number for Pele is uncertain, and it is complicated by this official/unofficial thing). But there's nothing to say that this is an area where Ronaldo was better to any marked degree.

I found this on X (from a very biased Brazilian fan account, admittedly), which purports to compare the vertical leaps of both players. And although Pele is shorter, he could apparently jump 2 centimetres higher.

Now I have no way of independently verifying this info, but the larger point is that Pele was exceptional in the air, and there is no evidence that Ronaldo was better. Unless you just want to say 'he's taller and therefore he was better', and if that's your argument, well then OK. But it didn't seem to make him vastly more effective in that area.

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If you do some research it's a myth, there is no record of it. It's made up.
 
Pickle85 said:
I mean, come on, is there even any point in quoting a tweet about Pele's jump height Vs anyone's from either the twitter account you're quoting or the one it's getting its 'data' from?! Both have pictures of Pele as their avatars FFS.
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Yeah, I said that when I wrote the post. The point is that there's no reason to believe that Ronaldo was significantly better in the air, unless you have an actual argument?
 
Kwabs said:
Yeah, I said that when I wrote the post. The point is that there's no reason to believe that Ronaldo was significantly better in the air, unless you have an actual argument?
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The actual argument would be the data that came from a reputable source, no?
 
Kwabs said:
He hasn't. Pele scored more goals and Messi has less goals but more goals per game. Even if you want to take away 500 of Pele's goals ('unofficial'), he still has more goals per game than Ronaldo. Pele scored his ('unofficial') thousandth goal when he was 29. Ronaldo is huffing and puffing towards that figure in a poor league at age 40.

Re the 'perfect body' for football, Ronaldo clearly doesn't have it, because he is too tall. Ideally, you want a lower centre of gravity in a shorter, strong body to give you that balance and manoeuvrability that the very best dribblers and movers with the ball have.

Height helps Ronaldo in the air but Pele was also fantastic in the air, so it's not like he loses anything there. In fact, if I was going to choose a perfect body for football, it would probably be Pele's.
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Yeah I’ve always thought the height thing for football was a bit overrated for all positions, obviously if you’re 5 foot 6 as a goalkeeper it’s not ideal vs 6 foot 6 when it’s your job to cover the goal, but if you see Maradona for example, he has a really odd/unique shape of being that short and stocky when you add in the level of ball control and talent and you have someone that was almost impossible to get off the ball. Saw someone say about players with a big arse being ideal for being a forward and definitely something in that haha, the likes of Maradona, Hazard and Dalglish.
 
Lay said:
Bolton. Followed it up with a stinker against Wolves
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Sorry. Was half asleep when I posted. I was 13 when he made his debut but I'm baffled when people say he didnt have freakish natural talent.

Next to Messi? No competition, Messi is a freak, touched by God or an anomaly. Ronaldo though, when it comes to guns at his disposable, two feet, heading, dribbling in his early years, he had every weapon you'd want in an attacker.
 
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I have no idea how you guys arrived at a Pele vs Ronaldo vs Messi discussion that doesn't involve Yamal, but please return to Yamal. Anything else below this post will be deleted. Thanks.
 
Cheimoon said:
I have no idea how you guys arrived at a Pele vs Ronaldo vs Messi discussion that doesn't involve Yamal, but please return to Yamal. Anything else below this post will be deleted. Thanks.
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Sorry. Can this be discussed in the 10 greatest players thread?
 
Kwabs said:
Sorry. Can this be discussed in the 10 greatest players thread?
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Yes, cause it's stuff that factors into that discussion. It's just that this thread here should have discussion that concerns Yamal.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
The best player in the world and should be the Ballon D'or favorite imo

I think people are reluctant of giving him that praise because of his age, but he's just that good.
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I don't think he's done enough this season to be Ballon d'Or winner. Raphinha and Salah have both had considerably more productive seasons. And if you base it on style of play then it becomes very subjective, but I'd pick Kvaratskhelia above Yamal.
 
brozonis said:
I don't think he's done enough this season to be Ballon d'Or winner. Raphinha and Salah have both had considerably more productive seasons. And if you base it on style of play then it becomes very subjective, but I'd pick Kvaratskhelia above Yamal.
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You can't be serious.
 
Eddy_JukeZ said:
The best player in the world and should be the Ballon D'or favorite imo

I think people are reluctant of giving him that praise because of his age, but he's just that good.
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Depends alot on what Barcelona go on to achieve and even than Raphina may impede his win. But he definitely is going to be in top 3 and the best of his generation injuries permitting.

My only fear for him other than injuries is early burn out as he has started so early obviously because of his talent plus the situation that Barca created for themselves forcing their hand.
brozonis said:
I don't think he's done enough this season to be Ballon d'Or winner. Raphinha and Salah have both had considerably more productive seasons. And if you base it on style of play then it becomes very subjective, but I'd pick Kvaratskhelia above Yamal.
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Not Salah. Maybe Raphinha or Dembele.
 
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brozonis said:
I don't think he's done enough this season to be Ballon d'Or winner. Raphinha and Salah have both had considerably more productive seasons. And if you base it on style of play then it becomes very subjective, but I'd pick Kvaratskhelia above Yamal.
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This is the problem with just adding up numbers and not actually watching games. What does 'productive' mean? When you watch Yamal play, he'll spend 90 minutes terrorising the opposition defenders. When you watch Salah play, he'll often do nothing, but then pop up with a goal or an assist. Does that make him more productive? Is this what we've reduced it to? If you don't score a goal or make the last pass to the person who scores the goal, you're not productive?

What about the pass before that last pass? What about defenders being pulled out of position and getting tired through dealing with you running at them, which makes space for other players? What about final passes that don't result in goals, are they now worthless? I don't get it.
 
Kwabs said:
This is the problem with just adding up numbers and not actually watching games. What does 'productive' mean? When you watch Yamal play, he'll spend 90 minutes terrorising the opposition defenders. When you watch Salah play, he'll often do nothing, but then pop up with a goal or an assist. Does that make him more productive? Is this what we've reduced it to? If you don't score a goal or make the last pass to the person who scores the goal, you're not productive?

What about the pass before that last pass? What about defenders being pulled out of position and getting tired through dealing with you running at them, which makes space for other players? What about final passes that don't result in goals, are they now worthless? I don't get it.
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I think you are underestimating the productive value of someone like Salah. It's not just about the moments where he scores or assists (although it's also ludicrous to dismiss such stats), it's also the fear he causes teams even if it may seem like he's doing nothing. Teams change their whole style of play to try to negate him: they double up on him, try to cut off the supply, man mark him etc... In doing so they sacrifice something from their own game plan and they give more space to other players. And despite that, he still scores and assits loads. Not to mention this season he has also basically become a target main, constantly retaining possession from goal kicks or long clearances.

Simply put, if you took Salah out of the Liverpool team this season, they would fade massively. The value he adds to the team is immense - obviously through his goals, but also through his presence and how integral he is to everything the team does.

Yamal is already great and has huge potential, but he's not at that level yet. He is a sentimental pick because of his age.
 
There’s clearly a lot of people in here who just don’t watch him play full games
 
brozonis said:
I think you are underestimating the productive value of someone like Salah. It's not just about the moments where he scores or assists (although it's also ludicrous to dismiss such stats), it's also the fear he causes teams even if it may seem like he's doing nothing. Teams change their whole style of play to try to negate him: they double up on him, try to cut off the supply, man mark him etc... In doing so they sacrifice something from their own game plan and they give more space to other players. And despite that, he still scores and assits loads. Not to mention this season he has also basically become a target main, constantly retaining possession from goal kicks or long clearances.

Simply put, if you took Salah out of the Liverpool team this season, they would fade massively. The value he adds to the team is immense - obviously through his goals, but also through his presence and how integral he is to everything the team does.

Yamal is already great and has huge potential, but he's not at that level yet. He is a sentimental pick because of his age.
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Yamal instils more fear than Salah, and his orchestration from the flank is second to none. There’s no sentiment to that whatsoever.
 
FrankDrebin said:
Any potential longterm fears of burnout ?
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That's a guarantee, Barca keep burning their youth. It will happen at some point, hopefully it's not a bad one and his body can absorb the stupid amount of minutes he's playing.
 
Didn't really watch the Euros so I was absolutely shocked to see how exceptionally talented he is technically especially with his passing and vision.

Hopefully Barcelona learn from previous mistakes and manage him a bit better. Would be a shame to lose what's for sure to be one of the best players in the world.
 
He's now top five at shots-per-game across Europe, incidentally (with six league goals to show for it). Is there anything he either can't or can't not do?
 
Raphinha's probably been Barca's best performer across the season, but Yamal and Pedri are generally the ones who actually make things happen. (That's partly by design, of course - Raphinha's playing on the "wrong" wing, and massively influential in late, close games in a way Yamal can't always match yet, but splitting hairs over their "best" vs. "most important" player may have more saliency here than in most circumstances.)

Any individual awards will likely hinge on how the season plays-out from this point forward, anyway.
 
brozonis said:
I think you are underestimating the productive value of someone like Salah.
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No I'm not. Barcelona have another player that has scored more goals in all comps than Salah this season. I don't think he's better than Yamal either.
brozonis said:
It's not just about the moments where he scores or assists (although it's also ludicrous to dismiss such stats)
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I'm not dismissing anything, I'm arguing against the notion that production = goals and assists, and only that.
brozonis said:
it's also the fear he causes teams even if it may seem like he's doing nothing. Teams change their whole style of play to try to negate him: they double up on him, try to cut off the supply, man mark him etc... In doing so they sacrifice something from their own game plan and they give more space to other players. And despite that, he still scores and assits loads.
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Disappeared at the business end of the Champions League, though. I don't disagree with your general points, though.
brozonis said:
Not to mention this season he has also basically become a target main, constantly retaining possession from goal kicks or long clearances.
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OK
brozonis said:
Simply put, if you took Salah out of the Liverpool team this season, they would fade massively.
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Speculation, but potentially true. However it is a team full of good players, we shouldn't forget that.
brozonis said:
The value he adds to the team is immense - obviously through his goals, but also through his presence and how integral he is to everything the team does.

Yamal is already great and has huge potential, but he's not at that level yet. He is a sentimental pick because of his age.
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He is a better player than Mohamed Salah right now. That is the conclusion I have reached from watching them both play this season. Not just by counting their goals/assists.
 
Kwabs said:
This is the problem with just adding up numbers and not actually watching games. What does 'productive' mean? When you watch Yamal play, he'll spend 90 minutes terrorising the opposition defenders. When you watch Salah play, he'll often do nothing, but then pop up with a goal or an assist. Does that make him more productive? Is this what we've reduced it to? If you don't score a goal or make the last pass to the person who scores the goal, you're not productive?

What about the pass before that last pass? What about defenders being pulled out of position and getting tired through dealing with you running at them, which makes space for other players? What about final passes that don't result in goals, are they now worthless? I don't get it.
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Stats...but Dembele has a legitimate claim as does Raphinha. Salah is not in the race.
Querulous Megapode said:
He's now top five at shots-per-game across Europe, incidentally (with six league goals to show for it). Is there anything he either can't or can't not do?
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He is a brilliant footballer who does alot of things very well and has the ability to mark a generation. But when comparing to the best ever, there are things he does fall short in:
1.He is an elite dribbler but Messi, Maradona were absolute top of the pile historically. This is the area wherein he likely will fall short even as he grows. These guys' close control was extraterrestrial.

2. He isn't as explosive as Maradona, Messi, R9. This will improve as he grows physically but i do not think he will become as explosive.

3. His finishing needs to improve. To what extent only time will tell.

His biggest asset is his decision making and delivery of the final pass which are elite and not only for a 17 year old.
 
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Wand of a right foot said:
He isn't as explosive as Maradona, Messi, R9. This will improve as he grows physically but i do not think he will become as explosive.
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Maradona wasn't explosive and Messi became faster with age but neither of them were this good at the age of 17.
 
MassVolto said:
Maradona wasn't explosive and Messi became faster with age but neither of them were this good at the age of 17.
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Don't know about Maradona at 17 but Messi hardly played at 17; total of 7 games all from the bench and even than it was Barcelona senior players who pushed for him to be promoted to the first team; Rijkaard was quite reluctant. Infact even when Messi was 18, he was almost always taken off before 90 minutes (mostly between 60 - 70 minute mark). Messi was really protected; Yamal isn’t. How do you compare them?

For argument sake, let me agree with you that Yamal is better at 17. What makes him better? It is his maturity/decision making not his raw attributes. Messi's close control, explosiveness and even finishing were already was better than Yamal's. What he lacked at 18 (honestly can't compare them at 17, there is too little of Messi at 17) was Yamal's off-the-charts decision making.
 
MassVolto said:
Maradona wasn't explosive and Messi became faster with age but neither of them were this good at the age of 17.
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Maradona was very explosive for his era. Messi is one of the most explosive players we've ever seen, and that was already evident at 18

Lamine Yamal does clearly fall short of those two in that regard, right now. Anx explosiveness, like pace isn't something you can particularly work on and improve. You either have the muscle fibres for it or you don't
 
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