Last 20: WLWLLDWLWDWWLWLLWDLW

SonyaCross493

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There's no consistency

Is it true that at Cardiff City Ole was known as a bit of a tinkerman? In terms of changing a settled team too much upsetting the rhythm? I think that's what's going to happen to United this season. Ole needs to find a settled team and stick with it. Changing the team after the dramatic late win on the Wednesday was madness with an international break afterwards there was no need, it stopped any momentum and gave Everton a huge lift before kickoff.
 
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soapythecat

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Even in a thread based on actual stats and not discussing the quality of football, I’m not seeing many compelling arguments for Ole? Given the outlay and wages this club has given him and the squad he’s built over numerous transfer windows, we are still inconsistent and not in a position to challenge.
And then you think about the poor quality of our football. Not now, nor ever will Ole be good enough to get us challenging properly. The stats even back up what we see week in, week out.
 

redshaw

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PL form table last 20 games:
Last 20 gamesWDLPPPG
Liverpool1352442,2
Man City1325412,05
Chelsea1244402
Man Utd1163391,95
Arsenal1145371,85
Tottenham1127351,75
Everton956321,6
West Ham947311,55
Leeds866301,5
Brighton857291,45

PL form table last 38 games:

Last 38 gamesWDLPPPG
Man City2756862,26
Man Utd22124782,05
Chelsea2189711,87
Liverpool19118681,79
West Ham20810681,79
Tottenham18614601,58
Everton17912601,58
Arsenal17813591,55
Leicester17813591,55
Leeds16715551,45

Ole 20 game splits in the league since he's gotten the job:

WDLGDPPPGTimeline
1172+24402Now
1154+9381,9
1253+24412,05Bruno
776+5281,4
1244+13402Got the job

Make of that what you wish.
The stats confirm we've dropped a bit and Liverpool and Chelsea have predictably improved, Chelsea with the Tuchel appointment and Liverpool with their defence back.

We are good enough to keep in line with second or third place. I think the poor form of Fred and McTom have been the main source of the drop. Anymore of this and we're right on track for 4th to 5th place, we should and have been previously been at the rate of Liv/Che are now.
 

Ali Dia

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The stats confirm we've dropped a bit and Liverpool and Chelsea have predictably improved, Chelsea with the Tuchel appointment and Liverpool with their defence back.

We are good enough to keep in line with second or third place. I think the poor form of Fred and McTom have been the main source of this.
You don’t think it’s as much because our forwards haven’t learned to play together yet? Villa Everton and Villareal matches were hardly a forward line that were at it. Since Ronaldo came in when he’s been on the pitch I’m fairly sure he’s the only one who has scored for us apart from Telles. He hasn’t assisted yet either. Even though he has been scoring isn’t it fair to say in some matches it’s looked easy enough mark Ronaldo and close his space and then majorly diminish our threat? Add to that the forwards don’t press and regularly invite the opposition to get back into shape before we decide to go for an attack. It’s just not working as a unit currently.
 

justsomebloke

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IMO You really shouldn't jump a summer and take last season's matches to see a pattern. Summer transfers can change lot of dynamics. Also players get tired towards the end of season which can impact the results.

I think 7 matches this season is a good sample to judge how current team composition is, how they are working as a unit, the pattern of play etc.

My worry is, more than the results the way we are playing this year is somehow worse than last year, especially defensively. Also last year the team was playing better against high press, this year resembles 2019.

I hope they all get their act together fast otherwise Oct to Nov fixtures can be unforgiving.
I'm surprised nobody with a pessimistic point to make have yet come up with comparing our record this year with how we did against the same 7 teams last year. Because we were 12-2-0 against those teams last year, and are 4-2-1 this season. Which means we've already dropped 3 more points against the opponents we have faced in 7 games than we did in 14 last season. Which puts rather an emphasis on your last sentence there.
 

redshaw

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You don’t think it’s as much because our forwards haven’t learned to play together yet? Villa Everton and Villareal matches were hardly a forward line that were at it. Since Ronaldo came in when he’s been on the pitch I’m fairly sure he’s the only one who has scored for us apart from Telles. He hasn’t assisted yet either. Even though he has been scoring isn’t it fair to say in some matches it’s looked easy enough mark Ronaldo and close his space and then majorly diminish our threat? Add to that the forwards don’t press and regularly invite the opposition to get back into shape before we decide to go for an attack. It’s just not working as a unit currently.
Well yes that too. I was going to add we have new additions in attack that need time to figure out. The drop off has been longer than this season and our average midfield has dropped far lower. McTom is not making the tackles he used to.

Over the course of a season I'd put Bruno and Rashford as our main players and we've been missing one for the start and he was clearly playing hampered in the second half.
 

Ali Dia

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Well yes that too. I was going to add we have new additions in attack that need time to figure out. The drop off has been longer than this season and our average midfield has dropped far lower. McTom is not making the tackles he used to.

Over the course of a season I'd put Bruno and Rashford as our main players and we've been missing one for the start and he was clearly playing hampered in the second half.
I agree with all of this. Last season just when things were starting to veer off course Cavani hit form and we started pressing aggressively as if he was the trigger for the whole team. Fred McT Cavani and Bruno all went together and it was working. Ronaldo and Sancho come in, we start playing Pogba plus 1 around the middle or on the left of the attack and this has totally stopped.

We are going to have to realise soon that it doesn’t matter how good your team is on paper, if you don’t win the scrap and take the initiative early the match will always be wide open. We keep trying to get it forward on our current terms and throwing more and more forward in blunt predictable attacking formations. Side to side and backwards. Looking for the slow overlap on the left, ball goes into crowded area for scrappy chance or is cleared. Rinse and repeat. Ball back to Pogba, floated back in and goes nowhere. It’s blunt and predictable.

The attackers don’t help the midfield at all. The full backs are gone up the pitch trying to overload but may as well have stayed back for all the threat they are providing. It all has a knock on effect. Attack walking around. Midfield completely swamped and outnumbered by players stepping in with more intensity and purpose to just play direct. Full backs out of position and centre backs regularly exposed. Thank feck for DDG or we’d be in 10th.
 
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OmarUnited4ever

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Yep, that is so inconsistent in terms of results, and why we would never challenge for anything if we do not find a good form very soon and be consistent with it.

I wouldn't mind inconsistency in form, as long as we keep winning games, but we aren't doing that now so we look even worse for being inconsistent in form & results.
 

Giggsy13

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Arguing with the Ole in brigade is a lot like arguing with anti-vaxxers. You throw damning stats at them like this, or some more obvious ones such as not winning a trophy and instead you get anecdotal subjective nonsense that “the football is better.”
 

Ali Dia

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Arguing with the Ole in brigade is a lot like arguing with anti-vaxxers. You throw damning stats at them like this, or some more obvious ones such as not winning a trophy and instead you get anecdotal subjective nonsense that “the football is better.”
At least let him play the season out before getting defeatist about it. We’ve been here before under Fergie and every other manager. We’ve been here every season with Ole and still managed to climb further up the league each year. We can turn things around. If we tighten up in the big games and knick a few results we will be right in the thick of it. If we just roll over he’ll be gone. The team needs to readjust and I think that takes longer than a month. With everyone fit does anyone even know our best 11 anymore? I think the manager has a serious tactical headache on his hands to get the best of what we now have and keep the games tight and the results positive. We’ve been poor since Ronaldo came in. I think that was an attacking Hail Mary and possibly a transfer too far but i also expect him to get us through tight games against poor teams as the season goes on. He’s a class player we just haven’t figured each other out yet. There’s still loads of time. If the manager keeps up our current form he’ll be gone by the end of the season either way. It’s still all to play for. He needs to be braver though.
 

kthanksbye

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Arguing with the Ole in brigade is a lot like arguing with anti-vaxxers. You throw damning stats at them like this, or some more obvious ones such as not winning a trophy and instead you get anecdotal subjective nonsense that “the football is better.”
I'd happily take 2nd/3rd place finishes, UCL quarter/semifinal run, and a domestic trophy here and there, if we actually played something on the pitch that resembled football. At the moment, we're painful to watch, i'd take boring football if we were grinding results, but that's not the case, mid table teams carve us open on the counter and even in open play. It doesn't look like getting any better, something has to change. But I don't think the board has the competence to be proactive.
 

AndySmith1990

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Inconsistently is the key take away from Ole's tenure thus far. We're capable of beating anyone on our day, but also capable of stinking the place out and suffering an embarrassing defeat. With the talent we have in the squad its not surprising we win a decent amount of games, but the inconsistency comes back to the current hot topic of coaching.

All league winning teams have one thing in common, they'll all go on long runs of excellent form. Liverpool and City have taken that to another level in recent years when they've won the league. It creates an aura of invincibility where a win feels like a full gone conclusion before they kick off.

With us it's impossible to predict what will happen from one game to the next. We could go and beat City 3-0 then follow it up with a loss to Young Boys a few days later. It's very frustrating.
 

Daengophile

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The results no longer seem to matter.

It's all about haircuts and silly dances
 

imamuppet

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At the OP,

so why didnt you provide the last 20 games for all the other teams who are our said be competitors ??

Whats the use of this data if we cannot compare it to the other teams ??

Or would you like each and every one of us to decide for ourselves what the intent of your thread is ??
 

justsomebloke

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Arguing with the Ole in brigade is a lot like arguing with anti-vaxxers. You throw damning stats at them like this, or some more obvious ones such as not winning a trophy and instead you get anecdotal subjective nonsense that “the football is better.”
That represents a downright astounding level of self-delusion, even in the general climate of hysteria around this issue currently.

If you want to talk about stats, sorry, but those generally make a far better case for retaining OGS than for sacking him. Unless you've decided to boil everything down to the single issue of "no trophy yet!", which is just stupid. And excuse me, but if anyone's doing "subjective nonsense" in the face of facts, it's the opposite crowd - "inconsistency", "patterns of play", "just moments of individual brilliance", "can't defend", "wrong lineup", "no tactics" - in short, and in summation "the football is worse".
 

AlexiV

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At the OP,

so why didnt you provide the last 20 games for all the other teams who are our said be competitors ??

Whats the use of this data if we cannot compare it to the other teams ??

Or would you like each and every one of us to decide for ourselves what the intent of your thread is ??
Chelsea DWWWLWWLWDWWDWWWDLLW
Man City WWWWLWLWLLLWWWWDWWLD
Liverpool LWDDDWWWWWWWDWWWWDWD

Friendlies not counted. Liverpool are on some run yikes :nervous:
 
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justsomebloke

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Chelsea DWWWLWWLWDWWDWWWDLLW
Man City WWWWLWLWLLLWWWWDWWLD
Liverpool LWDDDWWWWWWWDWWWWDWD

Friendlies not counted. Liverpool are on some run yikes :nervous:
Chelsea: 12 wins, 39 points
Man City: 12 wins, 39 points
Liverpool: 13 wins, 45 points
Man Utd: 9 wins, 31 points.

Not very encouraging.

Minor quibble, how did you count Chelsea's game against Villarreal in the Super Cup finals? And to OP, how did you count United's EL result against Villarreal? Those should both be draws.
 

AlexiV

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Minor quibble, how did you count Chelsea's game against Villarreal in the Super Cup finals? And to OP, how did you count United's EL result against Villarreal? Those should both be draws.
I'm not the OP so I've not done United's last 20 but I've taken a look and see that the Villareal game was counted as a loss. Counted the Chelsea game against Villareal as a draw.
 
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passtheball

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Chelsea DWWWLWWLWDWWDWWWDLLW
Man City WWWWLWLWLLLWWWWDWWLD
Liverpool LWDDDWWWWWWWDWWWWDWD

Friendlies not counted. Liverpool are on some run yikes :nervous:
Liverpool fans' argument that injuries curtailed them last season has some justification. The way it looks right now, United are in for a scrap for 4th under current management.

Chelsea: 12 wins, 39 points
Man City: 12 wins, 39 points
Liverpool: 13 wins, 45 points
Man Utd: 9 wins, 31 points.

Not very encouraging.

Minor quibble, how did you count Chelsea's game against Villarreal in the Super Cup finals? And to OP, how did you count United's EL result against Villarreal? Those should both be draws.
Should they be? Penalties are a very legitimate form of deciding a winner in cup competitions. We won the CL in 2008 on penalties after all. Losing a final should carry an L next to it.
 

justsomebloke

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Should they be? Penalties are a very legitimate form of deciding a winner in cup competitions. We won the CL in 2008 on penalties after all. Losing a final should carry an L next to it.
They should. They go into the official record as draws. Penalties are just a way of identifying who gets to move on/lift the trophy when the match ends without a decision, essentially the same as the coin toss that used to settle that. We won the trophy in 2008, but we did not win the final.

Not that it makes a big difference in this case. It's just add one more point for United.
 

justsomebloke

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I'm not the OP so I've not done United's last 20 but I've taken a look and see that the Villareal game was counted as a loss. Counted the Chelsea game against Villareal as a draw.
Yep, realized as much and changed my post, but too late. :) In any case, thanks for clearing up both of them.
 

Real Name

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One more thread for 'how bad is Ole' and of course Ole inners and Ole outers struggle.
 

Tom Cato

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No memes in the footy forums
Liverpool fans' argument that injuries curtailed them last season has some justification. The way it looks right now, United are in for a scrap for 4th under current management.



Should they be? Penalties are a very legitimate form of deciding a winner in cup competitions. We won the CL in 2008 on penalties after all. Losing a final should carry an L next to it.
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Reminder : Please don’t post pointless memes in the Red Cafe Football Forums
 

MrBest

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PL form table last 20 games:
Last 20 gamesWDLPPPG
Liverpool1352442,2
Man City1325412,05
Chelsea1244402
Man Utd1163391,95
Arsenal1145371,85
Tottenham1127351,75
Everton956321,6
West Ham947311,55
Leeds866301,5
Brighton857291,45

PL form table last 38 games:

Last 38 gamesWDLPPPG
Man City2756862,26
Man Utd22124782,05
Chelsea2189711,87
Liverpool19118681,79
West Ham20810681,79
Tottenham18614601,58
Everton17912601,58
Arsenal17813591,55
Leicester17813591,55
Leeds16715551,45

Ole 20 game splits in the league since he's gotten the job:

WDLGDPPPGTimeline
1172+24402Now
1154+9381,9
1253+24412,05Bruno
776+5281,4
1244+13402Got the job

Make of that what you wish.
Wow this is a great way to see the results. What's clear for me is Ole has built a new foundation at this club, has put us back in reach of the top. What is not clear is if he has the tactical ability to execute and deliver us trophies. Personally i think he is incapable, i would love to see someone new tomorrow but saying that, Ole will most likely get the season to see where we land up. This says a lot about the club, hope and pray on moments to deliver success. Unfortunately this is not sustainable, the league will change a lot from next year as Newcastle spend and spend and spend. The future of the EPL will be the middle eastern oil derby between city and Newcastle.
 

justsomebloke

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Wow this is a great way to see the results. What's clear for me is Ole has built a new foundation at this club, has put us back in reach of the top. What is not clear is if he has the tactical ability to execute and deliver us trophies. Personally i think he is incapable, i would love to see someone new tomorrow but saying that, Ole will most likely get the season to see where we land up. This says a lot about the club, hope and pray on moments to deliver success. Unfortunately this is not sustainable, the league will change a lot from next year as Newcastle spend and spend and spend. The future of the EPL will be the middle eastern oil derby between city and Newcastle.
I don't think that's true. We still have the ability to rival City and anyone else in the PL for spending, as the transfer record of the past few years show.

If we're talking about "sustainable", I don't think it's very sustainable to change managers every 3 years, especially not ones who have brought steady improvement over several seasons and more or less at the first hint of having plateaued. The bar for doing that should be very high, and IMO we're not nearly there as of now.
 

Denis79

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Absolutely shocking post and take on the situation. Ole makes everyone feel happy and that’s all that matters. 3 points? Meh. Clean sheets? Boring. Give me a smile from the manager and good vibes all day man.
:lol:
 

Denis79

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Inconsistency is such a problem for us. Weirdly we started out with a run of 10 wins and 2 draws from our first 12 games under Ole. Since then we've had a few slightly longer unbeaten runs.

2019-2020 - 14 games unbeaten, 9 wins, 2.21 points per game
2020-2021 - 13 games unbeaten, 10 wins, 2.54 points per game
2020-2021 - 14 games unbeaten, 8 wins, 2.14 points per game

The two unbeaten runs from last season were only separated by one game and to be fair, they made up the bulk of the season. If you stitch those two runs together you get a run of 18 wins, 8 draws, 1 defeat from 28 games, which is our best longer run of form under Ole. Even that isnt quite title winning form, but its getting there (equivalent of about 84 points over a full season)

The problem is how bad our dips in form go. In the last few seasons we've had these bad runs.

2018-2019 - 2 wins and 5 defeats in 9 games - 19 points dropped
2019-2020 - 2 wins and 4 defeats in 9 games - 18 points dropped
2019-2020 - 3 wins and 4 defeats in 7 games - 12 points dropped
2020-2021 - 2 wins and 3 defeats in 6 games - 11 points dropped
2020-2021 - 1 win and 2 defeats in 4 games - 8 points dropped

We seem to alternate between spells of good form that isn't quite title winning form but is decent, and short sharp spells where we suddenly lose a bucketful of points in a short space of time.
This is my greates concern, the inconsistency. We have the squad this season to avoid those terrible runs.
 

MrBest

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I don't think that's true. We still have the ability to rival City and anyone else in the PL for spending, as the transfer record of the past few years show.

If we're talking about "sustainable", I don't think it's very sustainable to change managers every 3 years, especially not ones who have brought steady improvement over several seasons and more or less at the first hint of having plateaued. The bar for doing that should be very high, and IMO we're not nearly there as of now.
I'll clarify, i do agree we have the ability, balance sheet etc, but i dont believe we have the right ambition or structure (at board level and independently of players and coaches).

Honestly, i personally do not dismiss changing managers every 3 or 4 years, many clubs do it and have continued success. Equally it can cause imbalance unless you have a solid set of leaders at board level.
 

Giggsy13

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That represents a downright astounding level of self-delusion, even in the general climate of hysteria around this issue currently.

If you want to talk about stats, sorry, but those generally make a far better case for retaining OGS than for sacking him. Unless you've decided to boil everything down to the single issue of "no trophy yet!", which is just stupid. And excuse me, but if anyone's doing "subjective nonsense" in the face of facts, it's the opposite crowd - "inconsistency", "patterns of play", "just moments of individual brilliance", "can't defend", "wrong lineup", "no tactics" - in short, and in summation "the football is worse".
Absolutely spot on mate. Look at chelsea, they’re absolutely in shambles. Tuchel barely has a laugh out there, what’s his problem. Putting aside winning the champions league, getting the best out of the Chelsea squad by employing actual tactics and a style of play, and looking like putting in a title challenge this season, what has he done? He seems too cold and German to bring about REAL change. I never want United to ever ever sink to the low of demanding trophies or winning them like Chelsea.

As for stats, I agree we should ignore them. OP shame on you for posting a negative stat like this one, out of order mate. 9 straight at home without a clean sheet, I demand we stop mentioning that too. 21 wins at OT in the last 42, again lalalalalala don’t wanna see it or hear it! Now do it with me, eyes closed, hands over your ears and scream Ole in!
 

Tom Cato

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Liverpool fans' argument that injuries curtailed them last season has some justification. The way it looks right now, United are in for a scrap for 4th under current management.



Should they be? Penalties are a very legitimate form of deciding a winner in cup competitions. We won the CL in 2008 on penalties after all. Losing a final should carry an L next to it.
Are these not double standards? Or where is the goalpost sitting currently?
 

passtheball

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Are these not double standards? Or where is the goalpost sitting currently?
What, are you saying United are currently playing the same sh*t that they have been for three years under Ole because of injuries? Liverpool have a style of play. We have a style of hope.
 

justsomebloke

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Inconsistency is such a problem for us. Weirdly we started out with a run of 10 wins and 2 draws from our first 12 games under Ole. Since then we've had a few slightly longer unbeaten runs.

2019-2020 - 14 games unbeaten, 9 wins, 2.21 points per game
2020-2021 - 13 games unbeaten, 10 wins, 2.54 points per game
2020-2021 - 14 games unbeaten, 8 wins, 2.14 points per game

The two unbeaten runs from last season were only separated by one game and to be fair, they made up the bulk of the season. If you stitch those two runs together you get a run of 18 wins, 8 draws, 1 defeat from 28 games, which is our best longer run of form under Ole. Even that isnt quite title winning form, but its getting there (equivalent of about 84 points over a full season)

The problem is how bad our dips in form go. In the last few seasons we've had these bad runs.

2018-2019 - 2 wins and 5 defeats in 9 games - 19 points dropped
2019-2020 - 2 wins and 4 defeats in 9 games - 18 points dropped
2019-2020 - 3 wins and 4 defeats in 7 games - 12 points dropped
2020-2021 - 2 wins and 3 defeats in 6 games - 11 points dropped
2020-2021 - 1 win and 2 defeats in 4 games - 8 points dropped

We seem to alternate between spells of good form that isn't quite title winning form but is decent, and short sharp spells where we suddenly lose a bucketful of points in a short space of time.
I think that's at risk of implying a general pattern from what is much more likely streaks that occurred for very different reasons and under very different circumstances.

Three general points:

1. It's not automatically inconsistency when results vary. Inconsistency is when you get different results from the same factors and circumstances, not when you get different results from different factors and/or circumstances. Hence, there is a need to look at each streak and ask if there are convincing specific reasons to account for each of them.

2. Even the assumption that there may be a general pattern for OGS reign as a whole is problematic due to the diversity in circumstances within the period covered. The team we had in the spring of 2019 was very different to what we had in the fall of 2019, which is again very different to the one we've had since Bruno arrived.

3. Every team has a certain of amount of inconsistency, and go through good and bad spells. So, United's record in that regard can't be viewed against a zero expectation, but needs to be contextualised against that of other teams. In short - how much variation in results that can't be accounted for by specific circumstances does there need to be before it's reasonable to call a team "inconsistent"?

Specifically on the streaks/periods:

2018/19 reflects the managerial change bounce and the effectiveness of the high-pressing, counterattacking style OGS used from the beginning - and then its collapse late in the season, in the face of key injuries and a general lack of conditioning in the squad (a classic Mourinho area of low priority). I don't think it makes sense to see that as inconsistency - it was a drop in performance that happened for clear, identifiable, specific, plausible reasons.

19/20 was essentially one long weak spell until Bruno's arrival, followed by a long unbeaten streak once he had. Reflecting the basic inadequacy and thinness of the squad, further exposed by some key injuries. If we hadn't signed Bruno in the January window that would no doubt have continued in much the same way for the rest of that season, but luckily that turned out to be a truly transformative signing, as will happen sometimes. That's not inconsistency, that's a defective team making a major adjustment that worked. Again, both the underperformance and the improvement can be attributed to clear and specific reasons, and don't reflect a team getting different results with the same tools and under the same circumstances.

It's not altogether easy to make out your 20/21 periods since you don't describe them and also don't clarify if they cover just PL games or also others. I suppose the first one is the 6 first games of the PL season, up to and including the loss to Arsenal? And the second is the last four games of the season?

In the PL our record was this: LWLWDLWWWWDWWDWWWDWLDWDDWDDWWWWWDWLLDW

In between those two spans, which total 10 games, we played 28 games, with just one loss as you allude to. Even if there was no significant specific factors involved in the weak spells at the beginning and the end, that would not be a huge amount of inconsistency. But there is. The virtual lack of a preseason clearly was a factor in the first three games especially. And the two losses at the end obviously owed much to the insane fixture crunch resulting from the moved Liverpool game which caused us to have to play 4 games in 8 days. The loss against Leicester, where we essentially fielded a Carabao Cup lineup, are clearly mainly attributable to that factor. Arguably, it also played a fairly large role in the other loss against Liverpool, which involved several players who had been featuring in parts or all of the Leicester game two days earlier.

So in my view there are again perfectly plausible specific factors to account for why the team performed worse results-wise in these periods compared to the rest of the season.

If I was going to pick on something last season, it'd rather be the DDWDD 5 games starting with the 3-3 against Everton and through the 0-0 against Palace, in (largely) February. We were missing Pogba during that stretch, but that hardly seems sufficient to account for such a dip in form.

All things considered, I would say that (in the PL at least) we're looking at a team that went through a pretty messy and difficult transitional period between Ole's takeover and Bruno's arrival, but who since that time and through last season has actually generally delivered results with an uncommonly high degree of consistency. As long as they have not faced exceptional and specific adverse circumstances.

Which actually makes me more rather than less worried by our current troubles, because our performances so far this season have dipped and they shouldn't have. Maybe you can suspect that there are challenges of adjusting to several new players at once, and especially Ronaldo, but that shouldn't be insurmountable - and certainly not of long duration.
 

justsomebloke

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Absolutely spot on mate. Look at chelsea, they’re absolutely in shambles. Tuchel barely has a laugh out there, what’s his problem. Putting aside winning the champions league, getting the best out of the Chelsea squad by employing actual tactics and a style of play, and looking like putting in a title challenge this season, what has he done? He seems too cold and German to bring about REAL change. I never want United to ever ever sink to the low of demanding trophies or winning them like Chelsea.

As for stats, I agree we should ignore them. OP shame on you for posting a negative stat like this one, out of order mate. 9 straight at home without a clean sheet, I demand we stop mentioning that too. 21 wins at OT in the last 42, again lalalalalala don’t wanna see it or hear it! Now do it with me, eyes closed, hands over your ears and scream Ole in!
Feel free to have this conversation with whatever strawman you can persuade to listen to you. It's not going to be me.
 

Giggsy13

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Feel free to have this conversation with whatever strawman you can persuade to listen to you. It's not going to be me.
Absolutely bang on mate. Remember, eyes squeezed shut, hands over your ears and scream OLE IN! Use it when someone says something you don’t agree with, state of our world anyways, looks like you’re doing great!
 

Longshanks

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Absolutely spot on mate. Look at chelsea, they’re absolutely in shambles. Tuchel barely has a laugh out there, what’s his problem. Putting aside winning the champions league, getting the best out of the Chelsea squad by employing actual tactics and a style of play, and looking like putting in a title challenge this season, what has he done? He seems too cold and German to bring about REAL change. I never want United to ever ever sink to the low of demanding trophies or winning them like Chelsea.

As for stats, I agree we should ignore them. OP shame on you for posting a negative stat like this one, out of order mate. 9 straight at home without a clean sheet, I demand we stop mentioning that too. 21 wins at OT in the last 42, again lalalalalala don’t wanna see it or hear it! Now do it with me, eyes closed, hands over your ears and scream Ole in!
Tuchel has done well at Chelsea, but he's not done no more so far than Roberto di matteo did in his short stint.

And Chelsea is an interesting comparision, they do like to swap and change manager quite alot, but they only do it mid season if it is absolutely certain that the current manager has either lost the dressing room or the form is truly dreadful. Also for every tuchel, theres a Sarri or a di matteo or a big phil scolari.

Swapping manager is a risk especially mid season and there is no guarantees that it will work no matter who you put in charge.

Statistics can be used to proove pretty much anything if you cherry pick them well enough. You mention the home form as an example but neglect to mention the away form which is excellent. And we certainly weren't the only side to struggle with home form in the covid season.

Oh by the way its actually 11 straight without a clean sheet at home, think our last clean sheet at home was against granada but for the counter we have scored 26 goals in those 11 games an average of 2.3 per game which is again is pretty decent.

You may be right in the long run and you can stick you chest out and say I told you so Ole was shit, but sacking him now would be pretty crazy considering our league position it the first time he has had a squad that is capable of challenging for major trophies its his squad aswell so let's give a bit more than 2 months of the season to see if he can the squad to work and go ahead and challenge for trophies.
 

lex talionis

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Isn’t the only WLD record that’s relevant right now is from this season?

Don’t get me wrong…we’re in shambles right now and Ole doubters have a strong case and their long knives every right to be sharpened.

But going back to last season, we coasted into the top four and dropped quite a few points in PL that were in the end meaningless. We lost in the EL final and Ole rightly took heat for his deer-in-the-headlights mismanagement of the squad, but we lost in the end in a pk shootout, a defeat that had no bearing on our CL qualification, the objective of which had already been achieved.

All that said, there’s no denying that ended last season poorly. But our poor start this season is a far more grave concern than our poor finish last season.
 

Giggsy13

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Tuchel has done well at Chelsea, but he's not done no more so far than Roberto di matteo did in his short stint.

And Chelsea is an interesting comparision, they do like to swap and change manager quite alot, but they only do it mid season if it is absolutely certain that the current manager has either lost the dressing room or the form is truly dreadful. Also for every tuchel, theres a Sarri or a di matteo or a big phil scolari.

Swapping manager is a risk especially mid season and there is no guarantees that it will work no matter who you put in charge.

Statistics can be used to proove pretty much anything if you cherry pick them well enough. You mention the home form as an example but neglect to mention the away form which is excellent. And we certainly weren't the only side to struggle with home form in the covid season.

Oh by the way its actually 11 straight without a clean sheet at home, think our last clean sheet at home was against granada but for the counter we have scored 26 goals in those 11 games an average of 2.3 per game which is again is pretty decent.

You may be right in the long run and you can stick you chest out and say I told you so Ole was shit, but sacking him now would be pretty crazy considering our league position it the first time he has had a squad that is capable of challenging for major trophies its his squad aswell so let's give a bit more than 2 months of the season to see if he can the squad to work and go ahead and challenge for trophies.
All fair points, but I don’t think it’s cherry picking when we point out disturbing trends or stats. We don’t have to make this complicated, we all know the underlying trends that makes a squad into champions because we’ve experienced it and seen it before. A home fortress, a stout defence, resiliency, and the ability to win and break down to teams in different ways. This was Sir Alex’s best teams in a nutshell. While we have shown some resiliency under Ole, the other defining characteristics of our strongest teams is missing.

It’s as simple as this: do we think it’s acceptable to win only 21 out of our last 42 games at home? Is it acceptable that we still leak goals and haven’t kept a clean sheet for 9 league games and 11 overall at home?

Our goal scoring has seen an improvement but the ability to keep clean sheets and win close games is the bread and butter of a title winning side. Give me several 1 nil wins over the course of a season over an occasional battering of Leeds or Southampton.
 

Longshanks

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All fair points, but I don’t think it’s cherry picking when we point out disturbing trends or stats. We don’t have to make this complicated, we all know the underlying trends that makes a squad into champions because we’ve experienced it and seen it before. A home fortress, a stout defence, resiliency, and the ability to win and break down to teams in different ways. This was Sir Alex’s best teams in a nutshell. While we have shown some resiliency under Ole, the other defining characteristics of our strongest teams is missing.

It’s as simple as this: do we think it’s acceptable to win only 21 out of our last 42 games at home? Is it acceptable that we still leak goals and haven’t kept a clean sheet for 9 league games and 11 overall at home?

Our goal scoring has seen an improvement but the ability to keep clean sheets and win close games is the bread and butter of a title winning side. Give me several 1 nil wins over the course of a season over an occasional battering of Leeds or Southampton.
In isolation those stats are not acceptable, but the majority of those home games were played in the covid season where no crowds took the vast majority of home advantage away, which is fact backed up by the stats. Which makes the statistic itself somewhat tenuous.

I agree that our tendency to concede is very much concerning though and something we need to get to grips with if we are to have any chance of challenging for the title this season.

The thing is taking stats that start and end in different season can be a little misleading we know that at the end of last season we had a lot of dead rubbers and alot of games piled on top of each other that skews the numbers and the statistic difficult to really make much off.

In terms of title winning traits we have seen 7 league games at the start of the season where we are trying to blood a few new players in and have been missing one of our best players from last season (rashford) that we can really judge Ole on his ability with a squad that's good enough to potentially challenge for the title. Because anything that has come before he simply didn't have the quality at his disposal.

7 games is very small sample size, its been a little dissapointing and particularly the villa defeat in that aspect. But let's see what happens if Ole can get the team to gel and start playing we know that they can, at the very least he deserves more than 7 games.
 

imamuppet

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What, are you saying United are currently playing the same sh*t that they have been for three years under Ole because of injuries? Liverpool have a style of play. We have a style of hope.
What style of play is that then exactly ?

Everytime I have watched them (admittedly its very rare !) their main attacking stratedgy is to turn the ball over then whack a long ball to the wings or push both wing backs high up the field to again cross the ball.

I dont see anything else in their play, long balls, press and long balls then rely on individual talent ...