I don't think either of our replies were irate, they were probably just not what Trequarista wanted to read, despite wanting a conversation on the issue. Apparently just having a differing view makes us part of a angry mob/brigade.Oh sorry if it read as irate, I didn't mean for it to at all. If it seemed aggressive then that was just poor communication on my part, I didn't mean for it to read as anything other than a normal friendly CE forum counter-argument that would prompt a response. Maybe my posts can seem more curt than I mean them too.
1. No employee has free speech at work. For example, if you start yelling slurs in your office, you will (probably) (rightfully!) be fired, but cannot be prosecuted.I think people who don't believe in free speech should just say it. And then take a look at a nice list of countries where it isnt allowed.
Yeah for sure. My primary method for trying to judge if I respect/trust someone is if I think they're genuine or not. Unfortunately it's incredibly difficult, and sometimes I change my mind on people, but it's always what I'm looking for. Like there are figures on both the left and right who I may disagree with but I think are genuine in their beliefs and words. Then there's also a huge murky grey area where people are largely genuine, but may be tactical at times too, which depending on context a small amount may be somewhat acceptable e.g. a politician trying to appease certain elements of the voter base.I think this point is spot on, but I think it's also important to recognise that the 'omg they're attacking my free speech' takes do not exist in a vacuum, but are a deliberately adopted ploy to create a threat to rally against; they're a part of that tribalism rather than an objective assessment of the discourse.
No worries, I probably was being over sensitive.Oh sorry if it read as irate, I didn't mean for it to at all. If it seemed aggressive then that was just poor communication on my part, I didn't mean for it to read as anything other than a normal friendly CE forum counter-argument that would prompt a response. Maybe my posts can seem more curt than I mean them too.
You responded to my opinion with the popular and derisory refrain "not sure if serious".Honestly though this is a prime example of what's wrong with people and dialogue at the moment. Maybe ask someone to expand or clarify before launching into an irate response.
Depends on the job. As a rapper, primary school teacher or parisian waiter you can get away with saying almost anything.1. No employee has free speech at work. For example, if you start yelling slurs in your office, you will (probably) (rightfully!) be fired, but cannot be prosecuted.
2. Employers can also indirectly control speech away from work (which is what a majority of #cancelculture stories are about).
3. Employers can produce compelled speech from their employees (for example, Uber in California made drivers signal support for a change in law, every time they logged in to start their job, and used the results of this "survey" to show that drivers support the law)
4. Free speech can be quantified by the amount of money an individual or organisation has. Buying advertisements and media outlets, or lobbying and donating to politicians, to promote your views and oppose others' is all a part of free speech, any restriction on these activities (like antitrust enforcement or donation limits) is a restraint on free speech.
5. Most obviously, private internet companies can remove you for your speech.
So, the framing of "believing" in free speech is wrong. It is a narrow, negative right that applies in certain parts of life, and not in others. Like all liberal rights, it is constrained by the ultimate, underlying, liberal right - the right to private property.
Absolutely perfect
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Are you being serious here?Depends on the job. As a rapper, primary school teacher or parisian waiter you can get away with saying almost anything.
Well its certainly been my personal experience. Its was somewhat tounge in cheek though.Are you being serious here?
Just on the teacher bit: In Denmark you're told that you're essentially representing your municipality (if you're in a public school) which means that anything you say in public (be that online, at work, in a newspaper column etc.) shouldn't be at odds with the municipality's values. Furthermore, you are not allowed to mention e.g. pupils in a way that makes it possible for others to identify them.Well its certainly been my personal experience. Its was somewhat tounge in cheek though.
Rappers get being banned for performing at venues all the time & entering certain countries, their tour buses are searched constantly, having the things they say in rap lyrics being used as evidence in court. That's before you take into account that rap music is the reason for the 'explicit' sticker placed on albums, and in the 90's was banned from being played on any form of mainstream media in certain places.Depends on the job. As a rapper, primary school teacher or parisian waiter you can get away with saying almost anything.
This comment is fecking gold.He knows feck all about feck all, and it doesn't even matter.
His great rhetorical contribution, that he uses again and again and again, of " They are the EXACT thing they accuse you of. " as an argument is literally:
They lament the decadence of wokeness, and damn postmodernism and Critical Theory as decayers of values, and yet these lot are responsible for the most cynical, nihilistic displays of depravity for depravity's sake. They are artlessness, witlessness; they are rats feasting on a soiled nappy and Auschwitz selfies. They contribute nothing of nothing, and the only evidence of their continued continuing is in the wasting of the time and effort of others. Ex nihilo nihil fit, plus they are fecking cnuts.
I think people who don't believe in free speech should just say it. And then take a look at a nice list of countries where it isnt allowed.
Depends on the job. As a rapper, primary school teacher or parisian waiter you can get away with saying almost anything.
Id vote for this over tories if it was in a party manifesto. They get occasional indulgences!Tweet
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But, yeah, we should have open dialogue with this guy.
Rappers are artists, would anyone make the same point about filmmakers? A large amount of moves contain things that are questionable outside of an artistic context.Rappers get being banned for performing at venues all the time & entering certain countries, their tour buses are searched constantly, having the things they say in rap lyrics being used as evidence in court. That's before you take into account that rap music is the reason for the 'explicit' sticker placed on albums, and in the 90's was banned from being played on any form of mainstream media in certain places.
What a bizarre comment.
Maage I was more jokingly referring to the Mr. Garrison type teachers at my hillbilly primary school up here in Nordjylland and my teachers at my hillbilly gymnasium in Dronninglund. I know standards have changed with the times. And yeah the Parisian waiter thing was about how casually rude they can be, which is something Ive noticed the times I've been in Paris. I wasn't being 100% serious. There probably isn't any employment where you garaunteed 100% free speech absolutetism. Unless perhaps are you self-employed in a free speech magazine and I guess even in that case there would be restrictions by law.Just on the teacher bit: In Denmark you're told that you're essentially representing your municipality (if you're in a public school) which means that anything you say in public (be that online, at work, in a newspaper column etc.) shouldn't be at odds with the municipality's values. Furthermore, you are not allowed to mention e.g. pupils in a way that makes it possible for others to identify them.
There's a whole thing you have to read and agree to before you start working as a public employee (which obviously includes teachers).
The Parisian waiter thing I guess was a joke about the French being rude or something, because I can't say I believe waiters can say anything without being fired as it's quite clearly bad for business to have waiters going around being rude to customers.
Yes too much free speech is a problemYou responded to my opinion with the popular and derisory refrain "not sure if serious".
And then you offered Newton's Third Law of Motion as evidence that attacks* on Lozza's free speech only made him stronger. A law that applies to physical bodies in Classical Mechanics.
*you doofus.
Could you expand or clarify?Yes too much free speech is a problem
You misrepresented my opinion and responded to that opinion with the popular and derisory emote "".Honestly though this is a prime example of what's wrong with people and dialogue at the moment. Maybe ask someone to expand or clarify before launching into an irate response.
You so can't say almost anything. Not if you want to keep your job.Depends on the job. As a rapper, primary school teacher or parisian waiter you can get away with saying almost anything.
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I can't help what I am, it's an immutable characteristic.Such a bore
Paydom of speech.The irony of offering a voice in an article that’s behind a paywall.
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