Lee O'Connor

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He's been here 4 month for fecks sake. Give the fecking guy a chance.
There's been opportunity in those 4 months. And I am giving him a chance. I'm just saying that based on the evidence thus far, there is no reason to believe youth will get a proper chance. Once evidence comes, I'll gladly say the opposite. Chong had the most minutes which was 30 minutes once against a bottom 2nd division side. Greenwood got 10 minutes once. That's literally the only evidence thus far. As I said, you can't expect me to say the opposite of the evidence.
 

Kostov

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He played both sides in his time here but mainly on the left, usually due to the other fullback being a RB. He also played a lot of CB for the u18s.

I wouldn't expect to see any of them. We'll no doubt use some mix of Darmian and Rojo or just push Lindelof or Jones wide.
Well that would be a blow right in the teeth of Ole's talk about giving youth a chance. None of Darmian and Rojo have futures here, why waste valuable game time?
 

Alex99

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There's been opportunity in those 4 months. And I am giving him a chance. I'm just saying that based on the evidence thus far, there is no reason to believe youth will get a proper chance. Once evidence comes, I'll gladly say the opposite. Chong had the most minutes which was 30 minutes once against a bottom 2nd division side. Greenwood got 10 minutes once. That's literally the only evidence thus far. As I said, you can't expect me to say the opposite of the evidence.
Greenwood and Chong were trusted in the CL last 16. What on earth are you on about?

Dalot, McTominay and Pereira are getting far more regular appearances, and Rashford has become a key player.

Fergie didn't just hand out minutes to youngsters for no reason, and we were in a much stronger position then, than we are now. O'Connor's still 18. He's got plenty of time to make his breakthrough.
 

In Rainbows

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Greenwood and Chong were trusted in the CL last 16. What on earth are you on about?

Dalot, McTominay and Pereira are getting far more regular appearances, and Rashford has become a key player.

Fergie didn't just hand out minutes to youngsters for no reason, and we were in a much stronger position then, than we are now. O'Connor's still 18. He's got plenty of time to make his breakthrough.
We have different definitions for trust. They barely got any minutes and considering our injury situation, any other action would be seen in an incredibly negative light. You know who the other options were to get us a goal? Rojo, Garner, and Gomes. In other words, it's either a young attacking talent or no attacking sub.

Dalot was already playing for Porto, McTominay for Mourinho, and Pereira in La Liga. Rashford was already a first team regular.

We're talking about players from the u18 or u23s and throwing them in the deep end. LVG did that with Rashford. He did it with Blackett, and McNair. Compare that to Gomes who has only played like 10 minutes in total in his entire United career compared to Foden and Hudson Odoi who already have 600 minutes of first team playing time.

You're looking at this on an individual basis. I don't blame United for not giving Greenwood more time. He's only 17. What I'm saying is that thus far, there is no evidence of Ole throwing these kids in the deep end. And until there is evidence of that kind of trust, I won't give someone credit in that department.
 

Inigo Montoya

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We have different definitions for trust. They barely got any minutes and considering our injury situation, any other action would be seen in an incredibly negative light. You know who the other options were to get us a goal? Rojo, Garner, and Gomes. In other words, it's either a young attacking talent or no attacking sub.

Dalot was already playing for Porto, McTominay for Mourinho, and Pereira in La Liga. Rashford was already a first team regular.

We're talking about players from the u18 or u23s and throwing them in the deep end. LVG did that with Rashford. He did it with Blackett, and McNair. Compare that to Gomes who has only played like 10 minutes in total in his entire United career compared to Foden and Hudson Odoi who already have 600 minutes of first team playing time.

You're looking at this on an individual basis. I don't blame United for not giving Greenwood more time. He's only 17. What I'm saying is that thus far, there is no evidence of Ole throwing these kids in the deep end. And until there is evidence of that kind of trust, I won't give someone credit in that department.
He'd have made far more appearances had it not been for injury
 

Alex99

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We have different definitions for trust. They barely got any minutes and considering our injury situation, any other action would be seen in an incredibly negative light. You know who the other options were to get us a goal? Rojo, Garner, and Gomes. In other words, it's either a young attacking talent or no attacking sub.

Dalot was already playing for Porto, McTominay for Mourinho, and Pereira in La Liga. Rashford was already a first team regular.

We're talking about players from the u18 or u23s and throwing them in the deep end. LVG did that with Rashford. He did it with Blackett, and McNair. Compare that to Gomes who has only played like 10 minutes in total in his entire United career compared to Foden and Hudson Odoi who already have 600 minutes of first team playing time.

You're looking at this on an individual basis. I don't blame United for not giving Greenwood more time. He's only 17. What I'm saying is that thus far, there is no evidence of Ole throwing these kids in the deep end. And until there is evidence of that kind of trust, I won't give someone credit in that department.
I just think you're being weirdly harsh, and unrealistic with the targets for young players making appearances this season, given the position we've been in.

You're completely disregarding that Dalot, Pereira and even Shaw barely (if ever) played under Mourinho, and that the likes of Rashford and Martial were constantly thrown under the bus and frozen out. Solskjaer as show faith in all of them, and they're all getting regular appearances, alongside McTominay.

You say there's no evidence of Solskjaer throwing the young players in at the deep end, but are wilfully ignoring that he brought on two teenagers in a Champions League knockout tie in which we were chasing a goal, taking off two more experienced players in the process. Options may have been thin on the ground that night, but Solskjaer could have just not changed anything, or even brought Rojo on and sent one or more of the centre backs up top to play long balls to. You talk about Foden, the only youth product City have, and completely ignore that Pep once turned up for a game when faced with an injury crisis with just six substitutes, rather than giving a spot to an academy player. Hudson-Odoi has literally also only just made his first Premier League start for Chelsea, and is looking at the exit.

It's just a bonkers complaint that Solskjaer hasn't shown faith in youth. Compared to who? LvG is hardly a model of comparison, given that half of the time he was just freezing people out for petty reasons, which left him with the option of either playing the players he no longer favoured, or giving a kid a chance, so he gave a kid a chance. McNair, who you've used as an example, went from being a fixture, "for the next ten seasons," according to LvG in his first season, to playing half as many games the following season, and is now in the Championship.

Fergie wasn't just playing kids for no reason, so I'm really not sure where you've got this notion that faith in youth means randomly starting 18-year-olds in important games to "throw them in at the deep end" because it barely ever happens. Almost all phase in with sporadic cup appearances, often off the bench, before starting the odd cup game and appearing on the bench in PL games.

When Solskjaer has had the time and money to actually an assemble a first team squad he's happy with, then we can start looking at his integration of young players. There's no point in setting them up to fail by playing them alongside players that aren't up to standard, something Solskjaer himself as acknowledged after one of our FA Cup ties. Even then, I think you need to temper your expectations somewhat. There already a number of young players getting regular football as part of the senior squad, and more than there are at other top clubs.
 

Kaglish10

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I just think you're being weirdly harsh, and unrealistic with the targets for young players making appearances this season, given the position we've been in.

You're completely disregarding that Dalot, Pereira and even Shaw barely (if ever) played under Mourinho, and that the likes of Rashford and Martial were constantly thrown under the bus and frozen out. Solskjaer as show faith in all of them, and they're all getting regular appearances, alongside McTominay.

You say there's no evidence of Solskjaer throwing the young players in at the deep end, but are wilfully ignoring that he brought on two teenagers in a Champions League knockout tie in which we were chasing a goal, taking off two more experienced players in the process. Options may have been thin on the ground that night, but Solskjaer could have just not changed anything, or even brought Rojo on and sent one or more of the centre backs up top to play long balls to. You talk about Foden, the only youth product City have, and completely ignore that Pep once turned up for a game when faced with an injury crisis with just six substitutes, rather than giving a spot to an academy player. Hudson-Odoi has literally also only just made his first Premier League start for Chelsea, and is looking at the exit.

It's just a bonkers complaint that Solskjaer hasn't shown faith in youth. Compared to who? LvG is hardly a model of comparison, given that half of the time he was just freezing people out for petty reasons, which left him with the option of either playing the players he no longer favoured, or giving a kid a chance, so he gave a kid a chance. McNair, who you've used as an example, went from being a fixture, "for the next ten seasons," according to LvG in his first season, to playing half as many games the following season, and is now in the Championship.

Fergie wasn't just playing kids for no reason, so I'm really not sure where you've got this notion that faith in youth means randomly starting 18-year-olds in important games to "throw them in at the deep end" because it barely ever happens. Almost all phase in with sporadic cup appearances, often off the bench, before starting the odd cup game and appearing on the bench in PL games.

When Solskjaer has had the time and money to actually an assemble a first team squad he's happy with, then we can start looking at his integration of young players. There's no point in setting them up to fail by playing them alongside players that aren't up to standard, something Solskjaer himself as acknowledged after one of our FA Cup ties. Even then, I think you need to temper your expectations somewhat. There already a number of young players getting regular football as part of the senior squad, and more than there are at other top clubs.
I beg to differ. Van Gaal has always been about kids since he's started his managing career. Have you forgotten his Ajax's kids that won the CL? Or the likes of Muller, Kroos, Alaba, Iniesta, Xavi he brought into his team?

My take is Van Gaal had always wanted to integrate kids into his Manchester United team because kids are better in position to learn new things from a coach than adults who are already set on their ways and that was why Van Gaal often used the likes of McNair, Blackett, James Reece in his first season but the poor showing of these kids discouraged him on our academy kids hence why he had to bring in kids from outside such as Fosu Mensah, Martial, Poole. If he wasn't for kids, would he have brought these kids in the first place?

That Van Gaal was discouraged with our kids and had thought they weren't good enough after his experience with Blackett, McNair, James Reece doesn't negate the fact that Van Gaal doesn't have problems with playing kids if they are talented enough and that was why he had no problems with kids such as Martial, Rashford, Lingard leading his front attack trio during his last season. He even had to deploy Rooney in the midfield to make room for Rashford in his team. I bet he would have had O'Connor play for him if he deem him good enough. He was already grooming Poole for the holding midfied role even while he was just 17. I recall him having Poole come on in an Europa cup match.

The revisionism on Van Gaal here is something else. People who didn't know about his time at United would think he was rubbish all through his time if they had went through this site. Of course yes, I admit he had a boring possession playing style which was mostly hinged on the midfielders playing on the pitch. Van Gaal had a "past it" ageing Rooney, a sluggish ageing Carrick and a lethargic Fellaini in his 3-man midfield for crying out loud. How could anyone have expected a fast pace possession play and creativity from this kind of midfielders? It's no wonder the first thing Mourinho did was to replace Rooney with Pogba's creativity and Carrick with Matic. It's even funny to see Rooney make a fuss because Van Gaal deployed him in the midfield whereas Mourinho didn't even have a place for him in his team. I can bet if Van Gaal had Pogba and Matic in his midfield, he would do wonders than Mourinho and have them playing a fast tempo football. If he could bring out the best in Carrick at that age, I don't see why he can't do same with Matic and Pogba. The fact is Van Gaal did his best with the average squad sprinkled with few talented kids he had under him and even won the FA cup with them. No one should demean his achievements and come up with another narration.

I would love Ole to give the kids chance if they are good enough. I think O'Connor is quite good but he's had his development stalled at a central back role. He can do a lot better as a full back and I think that's where he should develop.
 

Alex99

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I beg to differ. Van Gaal has always been about kids since he's started his managing career. Have you forgotten his Ajax's kids that won the CL? Or the likes of Muller, Kroos, Alaba, Iniesta, Xavi he brought into his team?

My take is Van Gaal had always wanted to integrate kids into his Manchester United team because kids are better in position to learn new things from a coach than adults who are already set on their ways and that was why Van Gaal often used the likes of McNair, Blackett, James Reece in his first season but the poor showing of these kids discouraged him on our academy kids hence why he had to bring in kids from outside such as Fosu Mensah, Martial, Poole. If he wasn't for kids, would he have brought these kids in the first place?

That Van Gaal was discouraged with our kids and had thought they weren't good enough after his experience with Blackett, McNair, James Reece doesn't negate the fact that Van Gaal doesn't have problems with playing kids if they are talented enough and that was why he had no problems with kids such as Martial, Rashford, Lingard leading his front attack trio during his last season. He even had to deploy Rooney in the midfield to make room for Rashford in his team. I bet he would have had O'Connor play for him if he deem him good enough. He was already grooming Poole for the holding midfied role even while he was just 17. I recall him having Poole come on in an Europa cup match.

The revisionism on Van Gaal here is something else. People who didn't know about his time at United would think he was rubbish all through his time if they had went through this site. Of course yes, I admit he had a boring possession playing style which was mostly hinged on the midfielders playing on the pitch. Van Gaal had a "past it" ageing Rooney, a sluggish ageing Carrick and a lethargic Fellaini in his 3-man midfield for crying out loud. How could anyone have expected a fast pace possession play and creativity from this kind of midfielders? It's no wonder the first thing Mourinho did was to replace Rooney with Pogba's creativity and Carrick with Matic. It's even funny to see Rooney make a fuss because Van Gaal deployed him in the midfield whereas Mourinho didn't even have a place for him in his team. I can bet if Van Gaal had Pogba and Matic in his midfield, he would do wonders than Mourinho and have them playing a fast tempo football. If he could bring out the best in Carrick at that age, I don't see why he can't do same with Matic and Pogba. The fact is Van Gaal did his best with the average squad sprinkled with few talented kids he had under him and even won the FA cup with them. No one should demean his achievements and come up with another narration.

I would love Ole to give the kids chance if they are good enough. I think O'Connor is quite good but he's had his development stalled at a central back role. He can do a lot better as a full back and I think that's where he should develop.
Whatever LvG achieved prior to United is irrelevant. At United, his faith in youth extended only as far as not trusting the senior players and having no other option. It's not for this thread, but Rooney wanted to play in midfield and he allowed it. Rashford didn't force that change. By all accounts, Rashford only got into the team because an already depleted front line was further hampered by Martial getting injured in the warm-up, with his only other involvement with the senior side prior to that being a couple of games a few months prior where he sat on the bench. As for the lack of fast-paced football being due to the players at LvG's disposal, he was the one who chose to sign Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger. He was the one who chose to sign Falcao and persist with Rooney. He was the one who let Nani, Kagawa, Welbeck and Hernandez go.

A string of failed experiments does not constitute faith in youth. Solskjaer has not shown anything other than a willingness and desire to incorporate young players in the side, and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Not playing as many young players as LvG is a stupid comparison to be making, given that we a) played perhaps some of the worst, most ineffective football we'd ever played under LvG, and b) the majority of the young players he persisted with were simply not good enough and almost all have since been sold or released.

We were out of the EFL Cup before Solskjaer was hired, an opportunity lost. The first FA Cup game saw Dalot, McTominay, Pereira, Chong all play, but we were unfortunate to draw strong Arsenal and Chelsea sides in the following rounds, making experimentation take a back seat. Still, Chong and Greenwood found themselves utilised in an extremely important Champions League game.

I'm sure O'Connor will get a chance eventually, but when all we've got left is chasing top 4 and a CL quarter-final, I'm just really struggling to understand how the manager can be criticised for not playing an 18-year-old with no first-team experience whatsoever.
 

Kaglish10

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Whatever LvG achieved prior to United is irrelevant. At United, his faith in youth extended only as far as not trusting the senior players and having no other option. It's not for this thread, but Rooney wanted to play in midfield and he allowed it. Rashford didn't force that change. By all accounts, Rashford only got into the team because an already depleted front line was further hampered by Martial getting injured in the warm-up, with his only other involvement with the senior side prior to that being a couple of games a few months prior where he sat on the bench. As for the lack of fast-paced football being due to the players at LvG's disposal, he was the one who chose to sign Schneiderlin and Schweinsteiger. He was the one who chose to sign Falcao and persist with Rooney. He was the one who let Nani, Kagawa, Welbeck and Hernandez go.

A string of failed experiments does not constitute faith in youth. Solskjaer has not shown anything other than a willingness and desire to incorporate young players in the side, and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise. Not playing as many young players as LvG is a stupid comparison to be making, given that we a) played perhaps some of the worst, most ineffective football we'd ever played under LvG, and b) the majority of the young players he persisted with were simply not good enough and almost all have since been sold or released.

We were out of the EFL Cup before Solskjaer was hired, an opportunity lost. The first FA Cup game saw Dalot, McTominay, Pereira, Chong all play, but we were unfortunate to draw strong Arsenal and Chelsea sides in the following rounds, making experimentation take a back seat. Still, Chong and Greenwood found themselves utilised in an extremely important Champions League game.

I'm sure O'Connor will get a chance eventually, but when all we've got left is chasing top 4 and a CL quarter-final, I'm just really struggling to understand how the manager can be criticised for not playing an 18-year-old with no first-team experience whatsoever.
The post was about how van Gaal could have promoted kids such as O'Connor which you disagreed with.

Besides, I can't help but address the false narrative about Van Gaal brought up by you. You said he was forced to play Rashford but let me ask you, who forced him? Was it an order or a must to have Rashford play? Of course not. Let me remind you that Mourinho had once prefered to deploy Hazard as his striker when he was faced with lots of injuries rather than bother himself with Chelsea's academic kids. Van Gaal could have done same but he chose to promote Rashford, an academy player and continued to persist with him even after Rooney returned from his injury lay off. Rooney had to be moved into a deep central midfield role to make way for Rashford as our forward. Let me remind you that Rooney didn't like it and caused a major fuss in the club because he had thought that would prevent him from breaking the clubs' goal scoring records like he had wanted to.

Rooney may not have had problems with playing as a second striker but didn't buy the idea of playing as a central midfielder in a 3-man midfield while Rashford played as the central forward. Rooney and the Spanish midfielders (Mata and Herrera) were the players who had wanted Van Gaal to leave. Funny enough the subsequent coach, Mourinho didn't even have any use of these players in his team except for Herrera who had to show his defensive prowess before Mourinho could consider him on his team. No doubt that Van Gaal's boring possession play wasn't encouraging but with the midfielders he had on the pitch, it was expected. Of course, Van Gaal should be blamed for not bringing in enough quality players especially creative midfielders during the transfer window but then, we have to consider the fact that the board brought in Herrera while Van Gaal was still managing Netherland at the world cup. Same Herrera that was almost signed under Moyes regime before the move was scuttled. Injury prone Schweisteiger was brought in for peanut, Di Maria didn't want to be here in the first place and was sold out as quickly as he came in, Blind was bought in for a peanut and was converted into a central back role, Van Gaal had wanted Mane but had to settle for Depay after the board opposed Mane's move because they couldn't pay Southampton's asking price, Injury ridden Falcao was on loan. Schneiderlin was the only midfielder brought in at a high price by Van Gaal and we all know Schneiderlin wasn't brought in for his creativity but to give us the grit needed in the midfield as a holding midfielder which he couldn't play.

While we could blame Van Gaal for not bringing in enough quality into the squad, the board should be blamed as well but most importantly, we should know the difference between a coach having to make do with what he had and a coach playing a boring football despite the quality in the team. The latter narration has been what a lot of our fans have been going on about Van Gaal but if you ask me, there was little quality in Van Gaal's squad hence the boring midfield play was justified because the team had no creative midfielder to begin with. That's just by the way. The main point I'm driving at is no one forced Van Gaal to use Rashford. He did it out of his own free will and continued to use him when the injured Rooney returned to the team. Van Gaal had never had any problems with playing kids in his team if he deem them good enough. Lets not forget the fact that Van Gaal signed young kids such as Fosu Mensah, Martial and Regan Poole in his second season after he had played average kids such as the likes of McNair, Blackett, James Reece in the previous season. Hence it's ridiculous to say he wouldn't use O'Connor if he deemed good enough to play. That's not to forget the several kids Van Gaal had promoted during his managerial career. Kids such as the Ajax's kids that won the CL, Muller, Kroos, Alaba, Iniesta etc. The fact is Van Gaal tends to integrate kids into his team at all clubs he has managed and wouldn't have problem with integrating O'Connor or any other kids if he deemed them good enough. Saying otherwise is a false narration and I disagree with it emphatically.

I don't see why some of our fans see our kids as no option yet we all cream our pants over other kids. If Klopp had the same idea as yourself to bid his time until the best time to introduce kids, the likes of Alexander Arnold and Jordan Gomez wouldn't have come up. Klopp even had Solanke play many times until he realised he wasn't good enough. You just have to give the kids playing time and see if they are good enough. Personally, I feel O'Connor is more ready than Gomez, Chong, Garner and we need a fullback badly. Why don't we try him and see if he can make the step up instead of depending on "have been" players such as Ashely Young because there's nothing Young can offer that we don't already know.
 
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Alex99

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The post was about how van Gaal could have promoted kids such as O'Connor which you disagreed with.

Besides, I can't help but address the false narrative about Van Gaal brought up by you. You said he was forced to play Rashford but let me ask you, who forced him? Was it an order or a must to have Rashford play? Of course not. Let me remind you that Mourinho had once prefered to deploy Hazard as his striker when he was faced with lots of injuries rather than bother himself with Chelsea's academic kids. Van Gaal could have done same but he chose to promote Rashford, an academy player and continued to persist with him even after Rooney returned from his injury lay off. Rooney had to be moved into a deep central midfield role to make way for Rashford as our forward. Let me remind you that Rooney didn't like it and caused a major fuss in the club because he had thought that would prevent him from breaking the clubs' goal scoring records like he had wanted to.

Rooney may not have had problems with playing as a second striker but didn't buy the idea of playing as a central midfielder in a 3-man midfield while Rashford played as the central forward. Rooney and the Spanish midfielders (Mata and Herrera) were the players who had wanted Van Gaal to leave. Funny enough the subsequent coach, Mourinho didn't even have any use of these players in his team except for Herrera who had to show his defensive prowess before Mourinho could consider him on his team. No doubt that Van Gaal's boring possession play wasn't encouraging but with the midfielders he had on the pitch, it was expected. Of course, Van Gaal should be blamed for not bringing in enough quality players especially creative midfielders during the transfer window but then, we have to consider the fact that the board brought in Herrera while Van Gaal was still managing Netherland at the world cup. Same Herrera that was almost signed under Moyes regime before the move was scuttled. Injury prone Schweisteiger was brought in for peanut, Di Maria didn't want to be here in the first place and was sold out as quickly as he came in, Blind was bought in for a peanut and was converted into a central back role, Van Gaal had wanted Mane but had to settle for Depay after the board opposed Mane's move because they couldn't pay Southampton's asking price, Injury ridden Falcao was on loan. Schneiderlin was the only midfielder brought in at a high price by Van Gaal and we all know Schneiderlin wasn't brought in for his creativity but to give us the grit needed in the midfield as a holding midfielder which he couldn't play.

While we could blame Van Gaal for not bringing in enough quality into the squad, the board should be blamed as well but most importantly, we should know the difference between a coach having to make do with what he had and a coach playing a boring football despite the quality in the team. The latter narration has been what a lot of our fans have been going on about Van Gaal but if you ask me, there was little quality in Van Gaal's squad hence the boring midfield play was justified because the team had no creative midfielder to begin with. That's just by the way. The main point I'm driving at is no one forced Van Gaal to use Rashford. He did it out of his own free will and continued to use him when the injured Rooney returned to the team. Van Gaal had never had any problems with playing kids in his team if he deem them good enough. Lets not forget the fact that Van Gaal signed young kids such as Fosu Mensah, Martial and Regan Poole in his second season after he had played average kids such as the likes of McNair, Blackett, James Reece in the previous season. Hence it's ridiculous to say he wouldn't use O'Connor if he deemed good enough to play. That's not to forget the several kids Van Gaal had promoted during his managerial career. Kids such as the Ajax's kids that won the CL, Muller, Kroos, Alaba, Iniesta etc. The fact is Van Gaal tends to integrate kids into his team at all clubs he has managed and wouldn't have problem with integrating O'Connor or any other kids if he deemed them good enough. Saying otherwise is a false narration and I disagree with it emphatically.

I don't see why some of our fans see our kids as no option yet we all cream our pants over other kids. If Klopp had the same idea as yourself to bid his time until the best time to introduce kids, the likes of Alexander Arnold and Jordan Gomez wouldn't have come up. Klopp even had Solanke play many times until he realised he wasn't good enough. You just have to give the kids playing time and see if they are good enough. Personally, I feel O'Connor is more ready than Gomez, Chong, Garner and we need a fullback badly. Why don't we try him and see if he can make the step up instead of depending on "have been" players such as Ashely Young because there's nothing Young can offer that we don't already know.
Are you Louis van Gaal's son? Fecking hell. I'm not responding to your individual points about him, but I'll just say, the van Gaal that managed United was a turd manager, that let go of a load of players, and replaced them with a lot of turd, some of which we're still struggling to shift, played turd football, and the majority of the young players he trusted, turned out to be turd too. The main point I made was to do with Solskjaer, but you've tried to turn it into some bizarre van Gaal love-in.

As for the Klopp thing, there are some issues there.

1) Joe Gomez was signed by Rodgers. He made 7 appearances in the season Klopp took over, 3 the season after, until making 31 the season after. He had also already made over 24 senior appearances for Championship Charlton the season before signing for Liverpool.
2) Solanke was signed off the back of 25 appearances for Vitesse in Eredivisie, so he was hardly an academy product being thrown in with no experience.
3) Trent Alexander-Arnold made 12 appearances in his debut season, almost half of which were off the bench, and then made 33 the season after. He also happened to play in a position that Liverpool were seriously lacking options in.

O'Connor will get an opportunity. He is 18. Him not getting an opportunity this season doesn't mean Solskjaer doesn't have faith in youth, which has been the point I've made.

Solskjaer came in with the team languishing far behind 4th, and a very tough CL tie against PSG on the horizon. He's managed to get us in with a shout of 4th, we're into the CL quarter finals, and he's managed to do that while reinstating Martial and Rashford as proper first team members, giving Dalot, Pereira and McTominay continued opportunities, and even found time to give Gomes, Garner, Chong and Greenwood some first team experience. Had we received more favourable draws than consecutive FA Cup ties against Arsenal and Chelsea respectively, and had he come in while we were still in the EFL Cup, I have no doubt that all would have seen even more time on the pitch, and O'Connor may also have already seen some first team action himself.

I just find it completely unreasonable to be lambasting Solskjaer for not choosing an untested 18-year-old to play full-back, when he was caretaker manager, essentially auditioning for the role with a set of expectations placed upon him, and when up until the last couple of games, the teams he were choosing were arguably overperforming.

People, quite simply, need to get a fecking grip.
 

Kaglish10

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Are you Louis van Gaal's son? Fecking hell. I'm not responding to your individual points about him, but I'll just say, the van Gaal that managed United was a turd manager, that let go of a load of players, and replaced them with a lot of turd, some of which we're still struggling to shift, played turd football, and the majority of the young players he trusted, turned out to be turd too. The main point I made was to do with Solskjaer, but you've tried to turn it into some bizarre van Gaal love-in.

As for the Klopp thing, there are some issues there.

1) Joe Gomez was signed by Rodgers. He made 7 appearances in the season Klopp took over, 3 the season after, until making 31 the season after. He had also already made over 24 senior appearances for Championship Charlton the season before signing for Liverpool.
2) Solanke was signed off the back of 25 appearances for Vitesse in Eredivisie, so he was hardly an academy product being thrown in with no experience.
3) Trent Alexander-Arnold made 12 appearances in his debut season, almost half of which were off the bench, and then made 33 the season after. He also happened to play in a position that Liverpool were seriously lacking options in.

O'Connor will get an opportunity. He is 18. Him not getting an opportunity this season doesn't mean Solskjaer doesn't have faith in youth, which has been the point I've made.

Solskjaer came in with the team languishing far behind 4th, and a very tough CL tie against PSG on the horizon. He's managed to get us in with a shout of 4th, we're into the CL quarter finals, and he's managed to do that while reinstating Martial and Rashford as proper first team members, giving Dalot, Pereira and McTominay continued opportunities, and even found time to give Gomes, Garner, Chong and Greenwood some first team experience. Had we received more favourable draws than consecutive FA Cup ties against Arsenal and Chelsea respectively, and had he come in while we were still in the EFL Cup, I have no doubt that all would have seen even more time on the pitch, and O'Connor may also have already seen some first team action himself.

I just find it completely unreasonable to be lambasting Solskjaer for not choosing an untested 18-year-old to play full-back, when he was caretaker manager, essentially auditioning for the role with a set of expectations placed upon him, and when up until the last couple of games, the teams he were choosing were arguably overperforming.

People, quite simply, need to get a fecking grip.
Sorry for the rants about Van Gaal, I just feel he's been misjudged poorly by lots of our fans. While we can all admit his team played a boring possession style and he should bear the major blame for not bringing in enough quality into the team, I feel we should also admit the fact that the midfielders (Carrick, Rooney and Fellaini) he had playing on the pitch were sluggish, average and lacked little creativity to begin with, hence the boring possession play was expected. Despite this, he was able to win the FA cup with this average squad comprising of few talented kids such as Martial, Rashford and had us fighting for the top 4 till the end. The kids such as Lingard, martial and Rashford are still in the squad today. I think his achievements shouldn't be underwritten just like that.

That said, I have little opinion on Ole as we speak. In fact, I have been testing the water with him and definitely don't have problem with what he's done or what he hasn't. I was just bothered by how some our fans waved away our kids and Van Gaal's love for integrating kids into his team since he started his managerial career, hence my rants.

I would love if O'Connor can make the step up though because we need a fullback badly and I doubt if he can play bad as Young presently. You mentioned that Liverpool kids has had some experience but didn't Fosu Mensah and Poole have some experience playing as either DM or CB before coming to our club? You don't even need an experience if you're that good. If you're good enough, you're definitely old enough.

Personally, I feel it's a great thing for the club to have talented young players come into the first team than mercenaries who can't be bothered. I feel an average academy kid would give more than 100% and bleed more for the shirt and when these kids are quite talented, then you have definitely hit a jackpot with them. For example, the likes of Scholes, Giggs and the Neville brothers or Barca's Busquet, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi were players who laid down a winning platform for their clubs for many years before they eventually retired. Even Madrid finally realised to their loss that they don't have to bring in galacticos in every department as seen with the likes of Kroos, Modric, Casemiro, Carvajal, Varane, Marcelo, Ramos who weren't galactico signings. Some of them were players either signed while they were quite young or their academy players. Others were signed for average fees.
 

jb8521

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van Gaal had nothing to do with signing TFM and we signed him in van Gaal's first season anyway.
He didn't have anything to do with the Poole signing either & the idea that he was grooming him for the DM position because he came on for a few seconds in a game where the better prospects weren't available & he had only been training with the first team for a few months because he couldn't play for the u23s is a ridiculous theory.
 

Alex99

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I would love if O'Connor can make the step up though because we need a fullback badly and I doubt if he can play bad as Young presently. You mentioned that Liverpool kids has had some experience but didn't Fosu Mensah and Poole have some experience playing as either DM or CB before coming to our club? You don't even need an experience if you're that good. If you're good enough, you're definitely old enough.
Ignoring the rest of the post because it's irrelevant.

Poole played a handful of games as a 16-year-old for Newport in League Two. Fosu-Mensah didn't have any senior experience at all. That's not remotely comparable to the experience of Solanke or Gomez.

I agree that if you're good enough, you're old enough, but there's a huge, huge difference between the youth levels and playing first team football for Manchester United.

I think it's all very fanciful, this idea that O'Connor, or any academy player, could just be dropped into our current squad, and find themselves settling into the first-team immediately. Expectations of young players need to be tempered, and there's a reason the top clubs in England make heavy use of the loan system and the cup competitions as platforms for young players to gain experience before integrating them fully in the club's first team.

It's also worth pointing out that United's U23s are actually in the second tier of the U23 pyramid, following relegation last season, and that they're currently mid-table in that division. Even when playing at that level, O'Connor hasn't even been playing against the best in the country.
 

Kaglish10

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van Gaal had nothing to do with signing TFM and we signed him in van Gaal's first season anyway.
He didn't have anything to do with the Poole signing either & the idea that he was grooming him for the DM position because he came on for a few seconds in a game where the better prospects weren't available & he had only been training with the first team for a few months because he couldn't play for the u23s is a ridiculous theory.
Here below it was touted that Poole had a trial at manutd before van Gaal finally made a move.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/35665672

https://www.eurosport.com/football/manchester-united-close-to-100000-signing-of-newport-county-teenager-regan-poole_sto4889780/story.shtml

Van Gaal definitely signed Poole. I don't know about Fosu Mensah but it wouldn't be out of place to think he could have hand in his signing as well considering Fosu Mensah joined in September 2014 after Van Gaal already became our coach.

That aside, apart from putting Poole on the pitch, he had him on the bench in some matches. Poole was definitely a player Van Gaal had in mind. Thinking about it, Poole would have make a solid solid CDM for any team because he's comfortable on the ball, has got the vision and passing skills. I even feel he was wasting away at a central back role in the academy, especially in an uncomfortable LCB role despite being right footed. That's just my opinion.

@Alex99, Poole has been Newport's best defender while on loan. The notion that young players need to play well for an average team before they could make the step up is quite wrong. If experienced players often look twice better with better quality team mates around them, I don't see why a young player can't be afforded such luxury. Some of these young players are not even afforded the chance to play in their best position let alone the luxury of quality team mates to give them several options on the pitch or quality team mates who could relieve them of constant pressure. That's why it's no good to judge a young player based on the performance of the team he plays for. O'Connor isn't even playing in his preferred role presently. There are players who's had made the jump while playing for the u18 team hence it's no use pointing to O'Connor's team as to reason why he shouldn't be given a chance to see if he's good enough for the step up. He can't do worse than Young for us.
 
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Alex99

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Here below it was touted that Poole had a trial at manutd before van Gaal finally made a move.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/35665672

https://www.eurosport.com/football/manchester-united-close-to-100000-signing-of-newport-county-teenager-regan-poole_sto4889780/story.shtml

Van Gaal definitely signed Poole. I don't know about Fosu Mensah but it wouldn't be out of place to think he could have hand in his signing as well considering Fosu Mensah joined in September 2014 after Van Gaal already became our coach.

That aside, apart from putting Poole on the pitch, he had him on the bench in some matches. Poole was definitely a player Van Gaal had in mind. Thinking about it, Poole would have make a solid solid CDM for any team because he's comfortable on the ball, has got the vision and passing skills. I even feel he was wasting away at a central back role in the academy, especially in an uncomfortable LCB role when he's mostly right footed. That's just my opinion.
Poole is currently playing in League Two with Newport County. He is not currently good enough (if he ever will be) to play for Manchester United's first team.

What are you actually basing these weird notions of these young players suddenly starting for United on?
 

jb8521

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Here below it was touted that Poole had a trial at manutd before van Gaal finally made a move.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/35665672

https://www.eurosport.com/football/manchester-united-close-to-100000-signing-of-newport-county-teenager-regan-poole_sto4889780/story.shtml

Van Gaal definitely signed Poole. I don't know about Fosu Mensah but it wouldn't be out of place to think he could have hand in his signing as well considering Fosu Mensah joined in September 2014 after Van Gaal already became our coach.

That aside, apart from putting Poole on the pitch, he had him on the bench in some matches. Poole was definitely a player Van Gaal had in mind. Thinking about it, Poole would have make a solid solid CDM for any team because he's comfortable on the ball, has got the vision and passing skills. I even feel he was wasting away at a central back role in the academy, especially in an uncomfortable LCB role despite being right footed. That's just my opinion.
Van Gaal didn't have anything to do with either signing, they were both academy signings. Fosu Mensah's deal was agreed before VanGaal even arrived at the club, his official join date is September because that's when he got international clearance. Poole had been on trial with the u18s the year before we signed him & the academy staff decided not to take him on but was then signed because we were short of cbs having missed out on our main targets because it was a relatively cheap & easy deal to get done.
 

SteveW

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We have different definitions for trust. They barely got any minutes and considering our injury situation, any other action would be seen in an incredibly negative light. You know who the other options were to get us a goal? Rojo, Garner, and Gomes. In other words, it's either a young attacking talent or no attacking sub.

Dalot was already playing for Porto, McTominay for Mourinho, and Pereira in La Liga. Rashford was already a first team regular.

We're talking about players from the u18 or u23s and throwing them in the deep end. LVG did that with Rashford. He did it with Blackett, and McNair. Compare that to Gomes who has only played like 10 minutes in total in his entire United career compared to Foden and Hudson Odoi who already have 600 minutes of first team playing time.

You're looking at this on an individual basis. I don't blame United for not giving Greenwood more time. He's only 17. What I'm saying is that thus far, there is no evidence of Ole throwing these kids in the deep end. And until there is evidence of that kind of trust, I won't give someone credit in that department.
Which ones from the u18s and u23s are genuinely good enough to go into a team desperately scrapping for a top 4 place.
 

In Rainbows

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Which ones from the u18s and u23s are genuinely good enough to go into a team desperately scrapping for a top 4 place.
How can we make a statement like that when they're kids? The point is they don't get the chance or rather haven't gotten that chance. And this excuse would be used no matter if we were better. "Which ones from the u18s and u23s are genuinely good enough to go into a team desperately fighting for the title?"
 

Kostov

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Which ones from the u18s and u23s are genuinely good enough to go into a team desperately scrapping for a top 4 place.
That might make much more sense if we had some genuine quality for some positions waiting as squad players. Instead we have players like Ashley Young and Jesse Lingard starting games.
 

SteveW

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How can we make a statement like that when they're kids? The point is they don't get the chance or rather haven't gotten that chance. And this excuse would be used no matter if we were better. "Which ones from the u18s and u23s are genuinely good enough to go into a team desperately fighting for the title?"
The managers job is to win games.
That might make much more sense if we had some genuine quality for some positions waiting as squad players. Instead we have players like Ashley Young and Jesse Lingard starting games.
2 players with 61 England caps between them. Name the kids who should play ahead of them. Bear in mind the challenge we face to make top 4 this season.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Sorry for the rants about Van Gaal, I just feel he's been misjudged poorly by lots of our fans. While we can all admit his team played a boring possession style and he should bear the major blame for not bringing in enough quality into the team, I feel we should also admit the fact that the midfielders (Carrick, Rooney and Fellaini) he had playing on the pitch were sluggish, average and lacked little creativity to begin with, hence the boring possession play was expected. Despite this, he was able to win the FA cup with this average squad comprising of few talented kids such as Martial, Rashford and had us fighting for the top 4 till the end. The kids such as Lingard, martial and Rashford are still in the squad today. I think his achievements shouldn't be underwritten just like that.

That said, I have little opinion on Ole as we speak. In fact, I have been testing the water with him and definitely don't have problem with what he's done or what he hasn't. I was just bothered by how some our fans waved away our kids and Van Gaal's love for integrating kids into his team since he started his managerial career, hence my rants.

I would love if O'Connor can make the step up though because we need a fullback badly and I doubt if he can play bad as Young presently. You mentioned that Liverpool kids has had some experience but didn't Fosu Mensah and Poole have some experience playing as either DM or CB before coming to our club? You don't even need an experience if you're that good. If you're good enough, you're definitely old enough.

Personally, I feel it's a great thing for the club to have talented young players come into the first team than mercenaries who can't be bothered. I feel an average academy kid would give more than 100% and bleed more for the shirt and when these kids are quite talented, then you have definitely hit a jackpot with them. For example, the likes of Scholes, Giggs and the Neville brothers or Barca's Busquet, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi were players who laid down a winning platform for their clubs for many years before they eventually retired. Even Madrid finally realised to their loss that they don't have to bring in galacticos in every department as seen with the likes of Kroos, Modric, Casemiro, Carvajal, Varane, Marcelo, Ramos who weren't galactico signings. Some of them were players either signed while they were quite young or their academy players. Others were signed for average fees.
I don't think he's greatly misjudged. At the end of the day he was backed and the business he did in the transfer market was his downfall. The list of players he signed Vs the ones that you'd consider successes is heavily against his favour.

But I do agree that he was very good at and invested in bringing through youth players. If there's one thing I want Ole to inculcate from him, it's this
 

Kostov

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The managers job is to win games.


2 players with 61 England caps between them. Name the kids who should play ahead of them. Bear in mind the challenge we face to make top 4 this season.
Emile Heskey had 62 England caps, and he was shit from start to finish. Young has been dreadful and it's getting worse every passing game, while Lingard has never even been good enough. We are much better off giving minutes to a kid like O'Connor or Laird instead of wasting them on Young. while instead of Lingard we should invest those minutes in Greenwood, Chong and Gomes.

And please don't use that excuse about top 4 challenge. We are grooming them to be winners and win trophies not for the pressure of the mighty top 4 race. So throw them in and see what happens. Who knew about Trent Alexander-Arnold before, did Klopp think he's a kid and probably not ready? No he didn't. He gave him a chance and now they have a starting RB for a decade, while we languish with Ashley Young.
 

SteveW

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Emile Heskey had 62 England caps, and he was shit from start to finish. Young has been dreadful and it's getting worse every passing game, while Lingard has never even been good enough. We are much better off giving minutes to a kid like O'Connor or Laird instead of wasting them on Young. while instead of Lingard we should invest those minutes in Greenwood, Chong and Gomes.

And please don't use that excuse about top 4 challenge. We are grooming them to be winners and win trophies not for the pressure of the mighty top 4 race. So throw them in and see what happens. Who knew about Trent Alexander-Arnold before, did Klopp think he's a kid and probably not ready? No he didn't. He gave him a chance and now they have a starting RB for a decade, while we languish with Ashley Young.
Dont be daft. We need the points. It's no time to be throwing 17 year olds into the team just to see how they do.
 

Kostov

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Dont be daft. We need the points. It's no time to be throwing 17 year olds into the team just to see how they do.
Well I guess persisting with Ashley Young and Lingard is the way foward. I’d expect that kind of thinking from a Chelsea fan, but we United fans have so many great stories of giving youth a chance and that’s the way it should be. At the end of the day what we might get is so much more than what we might lose. I’d rather a kid like Lee get a chance and fail if he isn’t good enough, rather than persisting with shit week after week.

And to add, we needed the points on Tuesday, the chap that has England caps and wore the armband let us down. I’d understand if a kid made such stupid decisions but instead it was a seasoned pro.
 

Aloysius's Back 3

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Sorry for the rants about Van Gaal, I just feel he's been misjudged poorly by lots of our fans. While we can all admit his team played a boring possession style and he should bear the major blame for not bringing in enough quality into the team, I feel we should also admit the fact that the midfielders (Carrick, Rooney and Fellaini) he had playing on the pitch were sluggish, average and lacked little creativity to begin with, hence the boring possession play was expected. Despite this, he was able to win the FA cup with this average squad comprising of few talented kids such as Martial, Rashford and had us fighting for the top 4 till the end. The kids such as Lingard, martial and Rashford are still in the squad today. I think his achievements shouldn't be underwritten just like that.

That said, I have little opinion on Ole as we speak. In fact, I have been testing the water with him and definitely don't have problem with what he's done or what he hasn't. I was just bothered by how some our fans waved away our kids and Van Gaal's love for integrating kids into his team since he started his managerial career, hence my rants.

I would love if O'Connor can make the step up though because we need a fullback badly and I doubt if he can play bad as Young presently. You mentioned that Liverpool kids has had some experience but didn't Fosu Mensah and Poole have some experience playing as either DM or CB before coming to our club? You don't even need an experience if you're that good. If you're good enough, you're definitely old enough.

Personally, I feel it's a great thing for the club to have talented young players come into the first team than mercenaries who can't be bothered. I feel an average academy kid would give more than 100% and bleed more for the shirt and when these kids are quite talented, then you have definitely hit a jackpot with them. For example, the likes of Scholes, Giggs and the Neville brothers or Barca's Busquet, Xavi, Iniesta, Messi were players who laid down a winning platform for their clubs for many years before they eventually retired. Even Madrid finally realised to their loss that they don't have to bring in galacticos in every department as seen with the likes of Kroos, Modric, Casemiro, Carvajal, Varane, Marcelo, Ramos who weren't galactico signings. Some of them were players either signed while they were quite young or their academy players. Others were signed for average fees.
Don't bother talking about positives about LVG here mate. Whilst people will give credit to Jose for Mctomminay they are extremely negligent on LVG.
 

SteveW

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Well I guess persisting with Ashley Young and Lingard is the way foward. I’d expect that kind of thinking from a Chelsea fan, but we United fans have so many great stories of giving youth a chance and that’s the way it should be. At the end of the day what we might get is so much more than what we might lose. I’d rather a kid like Lee get a chance and fail if he isn’t good enough, rather than persisting with shit week after week.

And to add, we needed the points on Tuesday, the chap that has England caps and wore the armband let us down. I’d understand if a kid made such stupid decisions but instead it was a seasoned pro.
What a load of crap. Join the real world with the rest of us
 

Kostov

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What a load of crap. Join the real world with the rest of us
Yes yes the real world of Ashley Young captaining Manchester United, struggling to finish top 4 and overpaying average to shit players untill they decide it’s enough. No thanks, enjoy it with the rest of you.
 

In Rainbows

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The managers job is to win games.
Isn't that obvious?

Van Gaal's job was to win games and he still threw in Rashford, Blackett, and Mcnair. What exactly are you saying? That you can't put in a youngster if you believe you need 3 points? You're making it sound like giving a start to a youngster means throwing the game away or that starting them once means they're going to be a constant starter from here on out. We're advocating for literally 1 start. 1 start in which our fullbacks are suspended and our other choices aren't quality.

And if it's so insane of an idea, stop championing the idea that we believe in youth.
 

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Well if Ole is true to what he said about giving youth a chance, a young full back must play this weekend. Otherwise it's all talk and not much truth to it.
I totally agree. I reacted to it pretty fast, as he constantly chooses to have Rojo on the bench instead of Garner, Gomes, Greenwood etc even though we have Dalot, Shaw and Young on the pitch and Jones on the bench (and two CBs on the pitch) totally pointless. I didn't like when he came on against Watford. What's the point? So yes, I really hope he gives O'Connor or Laird a chance but as I said; I can't see it happening.
 

Kostov

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I totally agree. I reacted to it pretty fast, as he constantly chooses to have Rojo on the bench instead of Garner, Gomes, Greenwood etc even though we have Dalot, Shaw and Young on the pitch and Jones on the bench (and two CBs on the pitch) totally pointless. I didn't like when he came on against Watford. What's the point? So yes, I really hope he gives O'Connor or Laird a chance but as I said; I can't see it happening.
Worrying signs in my opinion. The previous two managers had a habit of giving lifelines and wasting bench spots on players who should be shipped out and if Ole continues that I would be very disappointed.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Well if Ole is true to what he said about giving youth a chance, a young full back must play this weekend. Otherwise it's all talk and not much truth to it.
I can't be critical of Ole for not playing youth so far. We were in a complete mess when he took over and as interim manager I undee him being a little cautious. But sooner rather than later, I hope he starts promoting some youngsters here and there. Especially in home games.
 

rotherham_red

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For all the talk of Garner, Gomes, Greenwood et al, I'm surprised O'Connor hasn't been given his bow yet. Especially since he plays in a position where we've had old ex wingers playing as opposed to dedicated specialists.
 

Kostov

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I can't be critical of Ole for not playing youth so far. We were in a complete mess when he took over and as interim manager I undee him being a little cautious. But sooner rather than later, I hope he starts promoting some youngsters here and there. Especially in home games.
I get your point but that mess is partly due to said player wasting space and wages while contributing nothing. Just like he did with Fellaini (who was actually more useful than Rojo for example) get rid. Nothing about being cautious and while I want to be more patient with Ole, he is showing worrying signs and making bad decisions. All is fine if he learns from it, but some are repeating itself.
 

SteveW

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Isn't that obvious?

Van Gaal's job was to win games and he still threw in Rashford, Blackett, and Mcnair. What exactly are you saying? That you can't put in a youngster if you believe you need 3 points? You're making it sound like giving a start to a youngster means throwing the game away or that starting them once means they're going to be a constant starter from here on out. We're advocating for literally 1 start. 1 start in which our fullbacks are suspended and our other choices aren't quality.

And if it's so insane of an idea, stop championing the idea that we believe in youth.
They weren't suspended for the game I was posting about. Ffs. What a bad faith argument