Leeds (dirty thugs) discussion | Bielsa watch

ray24

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I've got a couple of questions for all the people criticising Leeds for the way they play.

Would you prefer it if Leeds played dull, defensive football to grind out results instead? If this same Leeds side had come to Old Trafford and ground out a boring 1-0 loss instead of a 6-2 loss, would you have been happier at the result?
Some would by the looks of it. Apparently a boring 1-0 loss with no attacking impetus is a "better" result than a 6-2 thrilling game. Goes to show why so many football matches are so boring to watch nowadays with fans like this.

Bielsa is dogmatic in his approach, and this is why he is given the name "el loco". He is utterly mad about football tactics, but he believes the point of football is to entertain people first and foremost.
 

giorno

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They're 7 points clear of relegation with games against burnley and west brom coming up

What's not pragmatic about the way they play? They're getting results so far
 

AltiUn

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They're 7 points clear of relegation with games against burnley and west brom coming up

What's not pragmatic about the way they play? They're getting results so far
Indeed. It looks a bit daft when it doesn't work but I think they're much more likely to end up midtable than get relegated. Being able to create as many chances as they do is absolutely vital in the PL, they'll be fine.
 

Matriac

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Never mind any of that, can you imagine this place or Twitter if Ole sat on a little box having a brew while we were 2-0 down?
:lol:
This one got the biggest laugh out of me today.

Yeah, I even had to screenshot it to send to my mates United chat.
 

ray24

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Indeed. It looks a bit daft when it doesn't work but I think they're much more likely to end up midtable than get relegated. Being able to create as many chances as they do is absolutely vital in the PL, they'll be fine.
Suffering big score-line defeat does not matter as long as it is not too frequent. Currently, the teams that did manage to beat Leeds with a decent scoreline are established PL teams. As long as Leeds can win enough games, it doesn't matter if they have a few more 6-2 defeats, as long as they can win more 5-2 victories against the likes of Newcastle and etc.
 

edcunited1878

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If Leeds just wants to stay in the PL and be entertaining, then this is what it is.

They've lost 7 matches in the league already with 30 conceded. No matter how crazy genius he is as a manager, you have to respect your opponent and adapt to get results.

Nobody cares how you perform if you don't get the results.
 

ray24

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If Leeds just wants to stay in the PL and be entertaining, then this is what it is.

They've lost 7 matches in the league already with 30 conceded. No matter how crazy genius he is as a manager, you have to respect your opponent and adapt to get results.

Nobody cares how you perform if you don't get the results.
They ARE getting results. Just not from you guys. They got results from Aston Villa, Newcastle, Everton and etc. It's only you guys that seems to be ignoring the fact that Leeds are getting a decent amount of points for a promoted team. It's not the end of the world for Leeds if they fail to get 3 points or 1 point off Man Utd. They already got points from Man City and other PL teams.
 
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spiriticon

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I still like Bielsa's football but watching his defenders leaves me trembling more than watching our own.
 
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I still like Bielsa's football but watching his defenders leaves me trembling more than watching our own.
im not sure I could watch it every week. My
Blood pressure would be through the roof, much like Bielsa!

very entertaining for the league, and would be interesting to see if he had a top class group of players to work with.

never going to win anything, and although a different style they remind me of Newcastle under Keegan.
 

RedDevilCanuck

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Bamford scores his first chance and it would be an even slugfest from then out.

Bielsa is brilliant. When I heard he walks to the stadium I knew he was great.

Seriously though, to promote a PL sleeping giant with pure attack is impressive.

Especially when you consider most promoted teams park the bus and look for the big lad up front.
 

Bilbo

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He's fantastic. For a guy that is so manically detail oriented his style almost makes tactics redundant.

How can you set up against it? He reduces the game down to 'we're going all out attack against you, so you have no choice but to do the same - may the best team win'
 

GenZRed

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Credit to Leeds and their manager for how they play.

Teams fear them. How many newly promoted teams have carried the same aura as them?
 

caid

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I dont really see the lack of pragmatism, you can make an argument on the goal difference front but I'm not entirely convinced on that point either. This Leeds squad coming to old trafford and getting anything out of the game was always a long shot. Scoring twice and creating a dozen really good chances doesn't seem like something to sniff at tbh.
I kind of feel they play football at a level above most of their players by really focusing on a system. Being as focused on the system they play doesn't leave much room for adjusting when you come up against a team thats a bit of a hard counter. It'll hurt against teams like United and a couple of others and i'd say their supporters are miserable today but i think it'll pay off against the west broms and newcastles and teams closer to their level all of whom probably have better squads.
When we play a Pulis or Moyes managed team and beat them 2-0 when they play an 8-1-1 formation I feel sorry for their supporters, it just feels grim to watch. I dont feel sorry for Leeds supporters, i mostly think that was great fun and they'll finish higher than better teams at the end of the season.
 

AshRK

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It was encouraging to see that we matched them im distance covered today. This leeds team run like maniacs. It was a fun game of football. I think they will stay up because they will trounce your WBAs, Fulhams etc.
 

Sylar

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Naive in a sense but you can be that way if you are better than at least three teams (which they are)
 

SCP

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Honestly good only for entertainment. Personally I don't conceive football without the element of competition. And on that matter he isn't reliable at all. And even more laughable was the fact he was nominated for the final list of best coaches in the World. I mean, that is the definition of hypsters choices. He certainly isn't one of the all time greats.
 

Bastian

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I don't understand his critics. His stint in Europe is mainly at teams that don't have a realistic hope of winning its league, but he improves players and creates a very committed collective that relentlessly attacks. It's high risk football, more fun to play and more fun to watch. I seriously doubt it results in less points on the board than a plucky underdog approach. If he were to compromise a bit, I'm not sure the magic would be retained.

There is no way any of our players have been 4-5 goals to the good yet having to be so mindful of an opponent before.
 

nuanced

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Honestly good only for entertainment. Personally I don't conceive football without the element of competition. And on that matter he isn't reliable at all. And even more laughable was the fact he was nominated for the final list of best coaches in the World. I mean, that is the definition of hypsters choices. He certainly isn't one of the all time greats.
Sure they had a bad at the office today, and conceded heavily with their makeshift defense. Yet I'd call a championship squad going toe to toe with record points winning PL champions, while having a squad worth 20% of the other team, the pinnacle of competitiveness.

 

ray24

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Sure they had a bad at the office today, and conceded heavily with their makeshift defense. Yet I'd call a championship squad going toe to toe with record points winning PL champions, while having a squad worth 20% of the other team, the pinnacle of competitiveness.
Some fans are expecting Leeds to be Liverpool or something. Or they simply have the idea that having 11 men behind the ball at Old Trafford is being "competitive".
 

Zen86

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I like what they do, but it’s high risk, gung-ho football at the end of the day.

It’s all well and good at a plucky club like Leeds where “you win some, you lose some” is good enough, but I can’t see a top club ever having the stomach for it.
 

SCP

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Sure they had a bad at the office today, and conceded heavily with their makeshift defense. Yet I'd call a championship squad going toe to toe with record points winning PL champions, while having a squad worth 20% of the other team, the pinnacle of competitiveness.

It wasn’t a bad day at the office. His teams usually are chaotic. Offensively in a good way, defensively in a terrible way. I mean they man mark all over the pitch, set pieces, I suspect Leeds players were instructed to follow United players to the bathroom. It’s pathetic to watch how they defend. There’s always excuses for him because his teams attack and he improves offensively his players. If I was a defender he would be my last choice to learn from. He is a hipster entertainer, nothing more than that.
 

saivet

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While it's easy to say they were naive they played the exact same way and were unlucky to lose 4-3 at Anfield and could have beaten City in the 1-1 game they had.

Very entertaining team though and I hope they stay up. It would be interesting to see them if they get better players for next season.
 

FootballHQ

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Leeds will be fine. As said before their style has already got them plenty of wins v bottom half and some good results against top teams. Today was just a bad start they couldn't recover from. They'll still give Man. United a tough game at Elland road I reckon as they'll learn from this and modify their game for the re match.

Only thing that amuses me was the amount of press who said they were going to storm the top 6 when they got promoted. Even after defeats to Liverpool on opening day and Chelsea recently loads in media were going mad about them.

They talk like a promoted team has never done anything like this before. Wolves two years back were a better team, Sheffield United had way more points on the board last season playing their own unique style and even us last had 15 points after 14 games so minimal difference to what Leeds have now.

As excellent as Bielsa are, him making the world coach top 3 list does feed into that narrative.
 
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Shame Kalvin Philips got subbed off, wanted to see more of him, given the hype around him.
Can see why he was. Tasked with manmarking Bruno who was pulling him all over the park and creating massive gaps between Leeds' midfield and defence. Was also apparently one yellow away from suspension so Bielsa subbed him when the game was probably lost. Bruno's intelligence with finding space is really underrated and it gave Phillips fits today. Personally think he's not much of a classic DM that wins balls all over the park through tackles and interceptions. Rather he's a brilliant passer of the ball so he's pretty much the only link between Leeds' defence and rest of their team. Will look silly a few times this season against top class attacking mids, especially without a pivot next to him to help him.
 

Emperor

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It is high risk strategy create so many chances to over helm the opposition. It will win them matches against most bottom half teams but you may get smashed against top team as happened today.
 

Nicolarra90

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Bielsa is a stubborn man, and acts the same as a manager and that's why he pretty much doesn't have any accolades as a manager. He lives and dies to his way of football, that's why he will never work with big teams, he's not good with big egos.

Entertaining... yes
Motivator... top class
Results... not really
 

Foxbatt

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Didn't we put past 5 against Leipzig? It was not even half entertaining as this for sure. Yes they are a credit to football. I mean only Bielsa is going to play like that. It does not matter if it is WBA or Bayern Munich, he is going to play the same way. Leeds do not have the quality of players for a top club yet they play like one. I do not know what would have happened if Bamford scored at 2-0. Liverpool put 7 past CP but hell that was not entertaining at all. This could have been the best PL match for a long time.
I hope they stay up and keep Bielsa. We need someone like him in the PL. Give him some quality players and they will get much better. Phillips had a nightmare.
 

Chipper

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They talk like a promoted team has never done anything like this before. Wolves two years back were a better team, Sheffield United had way more points on the board last season playing their own unique style and even us last had 15 points after 14 games so minimal difference to what Leeds have now.
Yeah, I think that's why there's some backlash. Bielsa has a promoted team in 14th after 14 games and he's hailed as world class. That's pretty good, being anywhere outside the drop zone is, and that's ultimately got to be the aim of any side that comes up. It's been done by lots of others too though, some who are seen as nobodies. Never quite in this way to be honest although maybe Blackpool push it close as they'd scored 21, conceded 27.

-Sheffield United were 7th at this point last season
-Wolves were 12th in 18/19
-Brighton were 10th, Newcastle 12th and Huddersfield 14th in 17/18
-Middlesbrough were 13th in 16/17
- Watford were 11th in 15/16
- no newly promoted side was 14th or better 14/15
- Hull were 12th in 13/14
- West Ham were 10th in 12/13
- Norwich were 11th, QPR 12th in 11/12
- Newcastle were 10th, Blackpool 12th in 10/11

13 out of 30 newly promoted sides doing at least as well at this stage across 10 seasons.
 
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Yeah, I think that's why there's some backlash. Bielsa has a promoted team in 14th after 14 games and he's hailed as world class. That's pretty good, being anywhere outside the drop zone is, and that's ultimately got to be the aim of any side that comes up. It's been done by lots of others too though, some who are seen as nobodies. Never quite in this way to be honest but when it comes down to it that doesn't really matter.

-Sheffield United were 7th at this point last season
-Wolves were 12th in 18/19
-Brighton were 10th, Newcastle 12th and Huddersfield 14th in 17/18
-Middlesbrough were 13th in 16/17
- Watford were 11th in 15/16
- no newly promoted side was 14th or better 14/15
- Hull were 12th in 13/14
- West Ham were 10th in 12/13
- Norwich were 11th, QPR 12th in 11/12
- Newcastle 10th, Blackpool 12th in 10/11

13 out of 30 newly promoted sides doing at least as well at this stage across 10 seasons.
the difference is the style, and the way they attack whoever they play.
 

FootballHQ

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Blackpool played some amazing football under Holloway in 10/11 and that was on a shoestring budget. Think they had a strikeforce of DJ Campbell and Luke Varney that were scoring at reasonable rate up to February and Charlie Adam in a free role in the midfield three looked amazing aswell most of the year.

Tend to be one of the forgotten prem teams of last decade and they were very unlucky to go down in the end on 39 points in the end. No one has gone on that number since.
 

FootballHQ

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the difference is the style, and the way they attack whoever they play.
Sheffield United attacked many games with their own unique style for most of last season although didn't score as many goals but they were fun to watch with all their overlaps.

I certainly enjoy watching Bielsa teams, love his Bilbao and Chile sides and Argentina were also fun to watch even if they underachieved but some of the praise they've had this season has been OTT.
 

InfiniteBoredom

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I love Bielsa but wouldn’t want him to manage Utd, if that makes sense. His dogmatic devotion to all out attack entertaining football is a breath of fresh air in this increasingly result-oriented business. In my time of watching Utd, the two legs against Bilbao in 2012 still stood out as one occasion where we got thoroughly outclassed by an underdog team.

His team will ship goals galore, go out of steam and he himself will inevitably has bust up with upper management, but when it lasts, he makes football more enjoyable.
 

nuanced

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I don't understand his critics. His stint in Europe is mainly at teams that don't have a realistic hope of winning its league, but he improves players and creates a very committed collective that relentlessly attacks. It's high risk football, more fun to play and more fun to watch. I seriously doubt it results in less points on the board than a plucky underdog approach. If he were to compromise a bit, I'm not sure the magic would be retained.

There is no way any of our players have been 4-5 goals to the good yet having to be so mindful of an opponent before.
I think there is a big chunk of football fans, who only watch/like the game if their team is winning. They also probably think that the best players produce the best entertainment. I think the quality of entertainment is proportional to how evenly matched the teams are. The more uncertainty, the more spectators would be involved with the outcome.

Previously, I used to religiously watch all the TV footy on the weekend. But now I don't find any joy in matches where there is no anticipation/suspense about the outcome. Haven't watched a single Man City game since Pep's second season, haven't watched any of Pool since last year. Leeds games are full of surprises, since they're awesome at creating chances, poor finishers and been poor at defending recently - so you never know if they're going to score 4 or concede 3. That always keeps me on the edge. Frankly, I'd have the turned the match off after the first 40 mins today if it was a team like Newcastle, but with Leeds there is always the small chance that they'd do something crazy.