They will confortably achieve their objectives, don't get me wrong. But I can see why a lot of top clubs in Europe never went for him, at Leeds or Bilbao this things don't matter much, now at Champions League level it's another issue imo.
Leeds (dirty thugs) discussion
- Thread starter Samid
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My argument to “having to adapt to your opponent” would be that they already do. He makes various adjustments to both how he sets up, and the roles of individual players and how they function on the pitch almost on a game by game basis.
There’s the commitment to the man marking system, so I imagine that’s what people mean, but I think that’s massively underestimating the system and how vital it is to Leeds. I don’t think chopping and changing such a fundamental aspect of their play is going to get them any more points. If they switch to having a deep line and playing a conservative defensive game the week they play a top side, there’s no guarantee they’ll do any better, West Brom have conceded more and scored 28 fewer goals. They concede a lot, but they score a hell of a lot, a goal difference of -3 puts them ahead of more established teams like wolves and palace.
Fully agree with this. Most teams have their main way of approaching games.
She should have stuck to her guns. "I said what I said, deal with it."
It doesn't need to be both extremes, doesn't need to park the bus or go full defensive in these game. His style is fantastic and works pretty well against teams around them (which is far more than enough to keep them midtable as I said) but I find no reason why he can't modify his style against teams who are much better than him in terms of quality, not playing defensive, but balance it a little bit and try to make it even and more competitive in midfield till an outbreak happens ?
I know that Bielsa is like Pep at the end of the day, they both have a certain system that they want to apply in every game regardless of the opponent, which is not bad, but in some games you need to tweak your tactics a little bit to get something out of it, especially against teams that are better than you.
This is how his Athletic team played against 2011 prime Barca. This was the time when every team who played Barca had 2 banks of four in front of their penalty area.
They used man marking to good effect against that team, so it would be unlikely he'd change his style for teams like Spurs: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2011/11/07/athletic-bilbao-2-2-barcelona-bielsa-guardiola-tactics/
For their objectives it's fine, what I say it's understandable, at least from top clubs (Champions League Level), why they always have been reluctant to sign Bielsa.
We could be here discussing if playing one week with a high line or deep block gives more or less points. Personally If I was a player and my coach told me to man mark someone all over the pitch would hate it, but this isn't all related to man marking.
There's not a perfect approach, I personally don't like the sanctimonious way these days the media or fans portray the right way to play, for what is needed Bielsa is most of the time a great coach, but saying this is only happening because he is at Leeds, sorry, his former teams always showed the same problems, not going to bring Chile or Argentina because NT football is entirely different.
Seems to be a of closet Leeds fans in here.
It’s pure ignorance to play the exact same against each team you face. When playing a top side I think it goes without saying that you can’t play in the same manner as they did against West Brom.
They have some good players but Bielsa is trying to drive a Ford Focus like a Ferrari.
Sure the Focus is decent, but against the Ferrari it will show it doesn’t quite have the guts to keep up.
It’s pure ignorance to play the exact same against each team you face. When playing a top side I think it goes without saying that you can’t play in the same manner as they did against West Brom.
They have some good players but Bielsa is trying to drive a Ford Focus like a Ferrari.
Sure the Focus is decent, but against the Ferrari it will show it doesn’t quite have the guts to keep up.
Biesla is what he is because of the way he gets his team to play. Otherwise he would be just another ordinary coach who parks the bus and the train.
It's no shame losing playing to your convictions. Leeds never had this good for a long time. They know that they won't win the PL. Next best thing is for people to watch them.
It's no shame losing playing to your convictions. Leeds never had this good for a long time. They know that they won't win the PL. Next best thing is for people to watch them.
The difference is that he knows he is driving a Focus.
Why can't he play the same way always? It's what he is and the owners of Leeds know that. His teams are attractive to watch and is the ideal football for a mid table side to play. So long as he is not going to get relegated and he knows he is not going to win the PL, might as well play attractive football.
Like @Cascarino said, it's not as if they are set up in exactly the same way each game. I am sure when individual players make mistakes, Bielsa is not happy (before anyone offers any comparisons to other managers, bear in mind he has got a team that's nowhere near as good as the best teams). Do you remember them against Liverpool on the first day of the season? That's not just a shock factor. They were dominating Arsenal away in the Cup last season, before Arsenal took hold in the 2nd half.
I think if they had almost any other manager now, they'd look like West Brom, though they'd hardly have made it into the Prem in the first place.
Needs more quality at his disposal and time will improve them too.
I think Bielsa is a genius when it comes to attacking coaching and I really like his style of football, which works fantastically well against other teams around their position in the league. My one really complaint about him is that he needs to be more flexible in some games to avoid playing straight into some opponent's hands, especially opponents who have more quality than his team in general. Weirdly, this is also a similar problem I have with Pep, even though I consider him top 10 best managers ever.
Anyway, it all depends on what their fans want. We're just neutrals in comparison. As long as they have no problem at all, fair play to them.
Yeah, I don't really know what the general view is from their standpoint. Prior to being thumped 2-3 times, he was revered. I'd be surprised if the those results and the ensuing narrative in the media has changed that.
With Pep (who rates Bielsa as the best in the world) I agree with that criticism. His mandate is completely different, he has been given the most money in the history of the sport to create an all-conquering team and he's messed things up in the CL, quite needlessly. That being said, I think Pep is brilliant and I'm still pissed off that he went to City instead of United. So I guess I view him a lot more favourably than most on here.
It's more about the psychological value of making your players believe in your system. If you constantly adapt to your opponents, it will affect your play against the bottom table teams and the mid-table teams.
Look at West Brom. Parking the bus against Liverpool is not helping them because they can't find the motivation to get forward and win the game against Leeds. Leeds is not going to survive by simply winning or drawing against the top 6 teams if they are losing all their games against mid-table and bottom-table teams.
Leeds is losing games against the top-6 teams and they don't care if that allows them to have the belief in their playing style to beat teams like West Brom, Everton and Sheffield.
I watched Leeds play against Spurs today because I knew that Leeds would give them a good game. They could've sat back for 90 mins and prayed for a 0-0, but I honestly find it refreshing that somebody is willing to not hold back in these games and will just continue to attack. When the game was at 0-0 and even at 1-0, they still had chances and if one of those had gone in, then who knows what might have happened. The second goal they conceded was a suckerpunch and was a little harsh after the way that they were playing, but you have to expect those sorts of things if you're going to play that close to the edge.
In an age where teams get called "brave" and "heroic" for defending solidly for 90 minutes, barely leaving their own box, let alone half, I'm glad that we have one or two characters like Bielsa who just wants his teams to attack. There's a time and a place for both of these outlooks on the game, and we really need characters like Bielsa to keep the spectacle there. They'll take more batterings, but they'll create more and score more this way, too.
In an age where teams get called "brave" and "heroic" for defending solidly for 90 minutes, barely leaving their own box, let alone half, I'm glad that we have one or two characters like Bielsa who just wants his teams to attack. There's a time and a place for both of these outlooks on the game, and we really need characters like Bielsa to keep the spectacle there. They'll take more batterings, but they'll create more and score more this way, too.
Bielsa's approach is more suitable to a team with multiple quality players. He would be successful at a top club in my opinion, Pep often gets criticism for shifting the tactics in Europe rather than sticking to the teams strengths. I think seeing Leeds next season will be a better grasp, they are only 3 points behind Southampton who many will have observed to be having a decent season.
They need to change it up, they’ll stay up this year but if every side knows exactly what they’re going to do they’ll be struggling next season.
Nope, they simply need better players. Improve their forward line and add a couple of top midfielders to the team and they might do a lot better. As for their defence, it is hard to say given all their first choice CBs are all out with injuries.
I heard the word "naive" today from the pundits so many times yet when we were kicking their ass while they kept attacking they were described as "a breath of fresh air" amongst other stupid descriptions.
It is.
Top level management is a results business ultimately and a coach needs to be able to adapt to their situation, this includes understanding the limitations of their squad and tailoring your style of play around them for different matches. I have said it before in this thread but Bielsa is a genius and also his own worst enemy. People saying they are in no danger of relegation please talk to me in August when his entire squad is exhausted in the same way they were in his first season when he didn't have a Covid 19 break.
He does, in only the last game I watched of theirs he played a centre mid as a sweeper to deal with knocked on long balls. The tactics do get tweaked
So what should the Ford Focus do
Its catch 22 though not every player can adapt to this formation/work rate it’s hard getting the right players in to suit his style of play
I respect that he will stick to his guns and continue to try to play his way. It shows he believes in his players too, which is good. But at some point you have to think about who you are playing and what they can do to you. He needs to consider changing his tactics to be more defensive sometimes. His approach is fine if your managing 2010 Barca, but he isn't.
It all depends on how well their scouting network is, and whether they have the funds to buy the players they want. With Leeds performing well so far this season, if they can avoid relegation, they might be able to convince better players to join them. I am utterly terrified of the alt-reality where Leeds was able to buy Haaland before he became a superstar. This Leeds team with a striker like Haaland is going to utterly destroy so many teams. Luckily they are stuck with Bamford up top.
Why? Having a nil-nil draw against the top 6 teams isn't going to make too much difference for a team trying to avoid relegation. If Leeds want to be in the top 6, then they might need to win more games against the top 6. But the current Leeds squad is nowhere close to sustaining a top 6 challenge.
They need better midfielders, wingers that can score more goals and better defence before they can even think about beating the top 6 on a regular basis. They did come close to drawing against Liverpool, and drew against Man City. So his style of play isn't that big of an issue.
Too many people who love spreadsheets in here and not enough who like crayons on rumpled paper for their tax returns.
It depends on what you think Leeds' expectations should be, but really Bielsa's term in charge of Leeds has been characterised by nothing but continuous learning, improvement and growth both as a team and as individual players. When this guy picked us up we were 15 years out of the Premier League; just another aimless mid table Championship club with a disillusioned fanbase, mediocre players and not much hope. First season here he transformed the entire mentality of the club; youth team, fan engagement, everything. We suddenly had an identity, an engaging and attacking method of play. Players who had previously seemed nothing but journeymen suddenly started playing out of their skins. Sure we just missed out on promotion but the very next season we came up as champions. Total outlay for this transformation was a £24m profit in transfer expenditure.
Roll on this season and our captain is still an ageing 675k signing from Chesterfield that we bought in 2014. Our fullbacks come from Bristol city and Brentford. Our CM is a 30 year old we bought for 2m and thought so much of we loaned him out while finishing 13th in the Championship. In fact 7 of our regular starters this term hail from that team. Hernandez would be the 8th, Roberts the 9th. By any stretch of the imagination none of those players then could have possibly believed that they could be competing at the level they are now. Yet Bielsa has demonstrated that they surely can. I simply cannot see any of them being brought to their current level of performance by anyone else. By rights we probably shouldn't even have come up and yet we find ourselves 12 points above the drop with half the season gone. We're taking some tonkings but also handing them out. We see a team that doesn't give up, fights for every ball in every minute, that ballses up but also overcomes; that is goddam exciting. The yardstick of success for this year is survival, and demonstrating that we can compete and belong here. Who knows by the end of the season but so far so good.
Seems to me that we are where we are now due to Bielsa's system of play and his rigorous program of instruction and training within that system. It's brought the absolute best out of the players we have, and I'd wager pushed many beyond what they themselves thought their best could be. Sure, sometimes that best isn't good enough when faced with the best players, best managers, or best combination thereof. The players are meeting their limits and finding challenges that they don't currently have the nous, experience or ability to effectively counter. However that doesn't seem to me to be a good enough reason to change the overall system itself. Rather that the players we've got should learn to adapt to the new challenges while using the system responsible for getting them here or they get replaced by players that can.
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I like the way they’re playing at this time. By parking the bus against Spurs, they may have salvaged a point at best and none in most cases. So they didn’t alter their identity for this game. They now know more about the weakness in their approach and they can learn from this and plug the gaps against the mid-lower table opponents and win those games.
If this were a knock out tournament or a CL final with everything at stake, playing this way could have been questionable. In the league with 38 games in the season, with a healthy sprinkling of games against lesser opponents, no chance.
If this were a knock out tournament or a CL final with everything at stake, playing this way could have been questionable. In the league with 38 games in the season, with a healthy sprinkling of games against lesser opponents, no chance.
Well said.
Leeds are the new Bournemouth. But the fact that they're a bigger club should help them stay up for longer.
If you’re not playing the game to win, don’t sit there shouting like a prat when you’re losing.
Simple.
I think sometimes anyone might run into a situation that he/she gets confused by what is seen and is affected by some seemly reasonable but incorrect/inconsistent options from others, especially some popular public opinion popularized by some pundits. I feel this is exactly the case about Bielsa and his Leeds.
Bielsa is a legend in the football world, no doubt about it. His philosophy of football is one of severals significant. You can see many other coaches sharing the various of pieces from it. But, that philosophy is also highly debatable, most likely due to the difficulty to implement it when facing different opponents with vastly varied playing styles and qualities.
I was one of the “someone” mentioned above before I read his interview found here,
https://www.skysports.com/football/...leeds-playing-style-ahead-of-man-utd-showdown
He explained why he won’t compromise. I have been convinced by that. Highly recommend everyone to read it if hasn’t yet.
Building a team with a playing style is a lengthy and very difficult task. Demolition of it is actually an easy work and produces a lost cause. We all remember post SAF era, how much we and the team have suffered from it. Look at that teams in the bottom half of the table. Many of them, you cannot say they even have a unique style of playing. They are more or less playing the similar way which is always changed by adapting to an opponent. I am not implying it is bad but just want to point out they are still where they are and they have zero chance to develop into a better team.
As Bielsa said frankly, his team played the same way consistently last season in championship. However, this season, apparently new to the high level of premier league, they are more often NOT able to play the way they want. The opponents are simply with higher quality. They are still a work in process. Rather than labeling them non-sense, isn’t it better just to watching them afar and enjoying the entertaining football?
In term of relegation battle, they are not in it clearly, simply because their style allows them score a lot and win a lot. Lose here and there isn’t a problem at all as long as they win many. But, next season, with Bielsa’s experience, I feel he can do this Leeds team an Athletic Bilbao, a top six finish.
But I also agree, his philosophy might not work in elite clubs for variety of reasons.
Bielsa is a legend in the football world, no doubt about it. His philosophy of football is one of severals significant. You can see many other coaches sharing the various of pieces from it. But, that philosophy is also highly debatable, most likely due to the difficulty to implement it when facing different opponents with vastly varied playing styles and qualities.
I was one of the “someone” mentioned above before I read his interview found here,
https://www.skysports.com/football/...leeds-playing-style-ahead-of-man-utd-showdown
He explained why he won’t compromise. I have been convinced by that. Highly recommend everyone to read it if hasn’t yet.
Building a team with a playing style is a lengthy and very difficult task. Demolition of it is actually an easy work and produces a lost cause. We all remember post SAF era, how much we and the team have suffered from it. Look at that teams in the bottom half of the table. Many of them, you cannot say they even have a unique style of playing. They are more or less playing the similar way which is always changed by adapting to an opponent. I am not implying it is bad but just want to point out they are still where they are and they have zero chance to develop into a better team.
As Bielsa said frankly, his team played the same way consistently last season in championship. However, this season, apparently new to the high level of premier league, they are more often NOT able to play the way they want. The opponents are simply with higher quality. They are still a work in process. Rather than labeling them non-sense, isn’t it better just to watching them afar and enjoying the entertaining football?
In term of relegation battle, they are not in it clearly, simply because their style allows them score a lot and win a lot. Lose here and there isn’t a problem at all as long as they win many. But, next season, with Bielsa’s experience, I feel he can do this Leeds team an Athletic Bilbao, a top six finish.
But I also agree, his philosophy might not work in elite clubs for variety of reasons.
A certain very successful Arsene Wenger had a similar approach to compromising his team's style. It works when you have the superior players in the league (or at least top two) but it stopped working big time when competition became fiercer and more diverse. I can see a similar path for Bielsa's Leeds if he sticks around long enough.
Right, indeed! The prof football has become so competitive field with the greatest diversity as you well indicated. The common sense, “no shoes fit all”, still holds. There really need and will surely have some disruption force added.
I actually feel it might not end well after one day Bielsa eventually leave (retirement) for Leeds. But, some one like Rogers will do the job.
Or if they are on a positive trajectory with European football (ambitions) they could target Pochettino.
Are you a Leeds United supporter?
That game was such a breath of fresh air. Massive credit to Leeds!
At least they play with smiles on their faces right?
‘‘Sky Sports would like to state on record, how proud they are of Leeds getting beat 3-0 by Crawley Town.’’
They play football the way football was meant to be played! Huge credit to Bielsa