Legia Warsaw Ultras - absolute nutters!

[Sarni]

Im slightly disturbed about the fact that you Poles seems to think a 50ft banner of a Nazi soldier with a gun to the head of a child is all good at a football match. As I said already Im personally not too arsed about the slogan but it is still clearly against UEFA rules and in my opinion banners etc should stick to football and not politics/history/etc - do them about your rivals or celebrate your players or victories or whatever but all this stuff has no place at a football ground in my opinion.

Would the club have known about this in advance and okayed it?
or is this something the fans put together without knowledge of the club (in England the club have to pass any banner of that size)

The club doesn't have to know but in this case I suspect that they did know.

In that case we should forbid all minutes of silence, PL players wearing poppies during Remembrance Day (disgusting) and ban all players who wear black armbands after tragedies.

 

[M18CTID]

Whatever one's opinions on the display, what can't be denied is that their displays are nothing short of incredible. Add in all the flares and stuff and it makes for an awesome spectacle. Unfortunately, flares and smoke bombs are not permitted by UEFA in football stadia for games played in their competitions. Fans aren't allowed them at English domestic games either which is annoying because the clubs themselves are allowed to use them such as that big fook off pyro display last night before our game with Everton. Yet a mate of mine copped a 12 month ban from City for picking someone else's flare up and waving it above his head for all of about 3 seconds

 

[Sarni]

Whatever one's opinions on the display, what can't be denied is that their displays are nothing short of incredible. Add in all the flares and stuff and it makes for an awesome spectacle. Unfortunately, flares and smoke bombs are not permitted by UEFA in football stadia for games played in their competitions. Fans aren't allowed them at English domestic games either which is annoying because the clubs themselves are allowed to use them such as that big fook off pyro display last night before our game with Everton. Yet a mate of mine copped a 12 month ban from City for picking someone else's flare up and waving it above his head for all of about 3 seconds

They are not allowed during domestic games here either but it doesn't prevent fans from occasionally displaying them. I agree with this though, having fireworks at football games is calling for problems.

 

[M18CTID]

They are not allowed during domestic games here either but it doesn't prevent fans from occasionally displaying them. I agree with this though, having fireworks at football games is calling for problems.

Yeah, on balance I can understand the reasoning because it only takes one idiot to start throwing them around and it causes all manner of issues. I just think each case should be treated on merit - when my mate got arrested, the police showed some commonsense for a change and accepted that he wasn't endangering anyone and had just got carried away a little (it was after Kompany scored our 2nd against West Ham on the day we won the league in 2014) so they released him without charge about an hour after the game ended, yet City still banned him for 12 months.

 

[Vashu]

There's no fine for it and probably better if it stays that way. However I find Legia's display being in bad taste. The choice of words (no mention of nazis), emphasizing on children's death, the horrific picture, it all makes it mostly anti-German, especially in the current political context. This doesn't commemorate the victims and heroes, it can be simply interpreted by way of pointing the finger at the Germans and saying: "you cnuts are guilty of all of it". What's the gain here? Who profits from all of this? It only feeds animosity between two nations that had actually put much effort into building bridges above a very troubled past. The only side who gains something here is the scummy ruling party that beyond the smokescreen of artificially engineered conflicts wants to destroy fundaments of a democratic country.


Compare it to Śląsk Wrocław's display in the video above which says:
"Let them call it a disaster, that it shouldn't be honored. (Warsaw Uprising wasn't a success)
Śląsk Wrocław is proud of the Uprising' soldiers".

 

[Sarni]

There's no fine for it and probably better if it stays that way. However I find Legia's display being in bad taste. The choice of words (no mention of nazis), emphasizing on children's death, the horrific picture, it all makes it mostly anti-German, especially in political context. This doesn't commemorate the victims and heroes, it can be simply interpreted by way of pointing the finger at the Germans and saying: "you cnuts are guilty of all of it". What's the gain here? Who profits from all of this? It only feeds animosity between two nations that had actually put much effort into building bridges above a very troubled past. The only side who gains something here is the scummy ruling party that beyond the smokescreen of artificially engineered conflicts wants to destroy fundaments of a democratic country right here.


Compare it to Śląsk Wrocław's display in the video above which says:
"Let them call it a disaster, that it shouldn't be honored. (Warsaw Uprising wasn't a success)
Śląsk Wrocław is proud of the Uprising' soldiers".

But it was Germans who killed 160,000 people. That's a fact. The choice of words comes from the fact that a lot of reports and history books don't even mention this while talking about concentration camps and a lot of people actually believe they were Polish.

There is no problem between German and Polish people these days but history is history, you don't change it because the choice of words might offend the offenders.

 

[barros]

Did this last week before their Europa League play off match against Sheriff Tiraspol



and that was because they got fined (rightly in my opinion) after this display before their CL qualifier against FC Astana earlier in the month

Damn they are amazing

 

[Kostur]

But it was Germans who killed 160,000 people. That's a fact. The choice of words comes from the fact that a lot of reports and history books don't even mention this while talking about concentration camps and a lot of people actually believe they were Polish.

There is no problem between German and Polish people these days but history is history, you don't change it because the choice of words might offend the offenders.

There's also this constant (and as I believe, not accidental) disinformation rolled out regarding the death camps by certain media, make it be German (ZDF) or American. People who say that it's 'a common knowledge' are wrong, even the POTUS himself used this, highly offensive, expression.

 

[Moonred]

That is one spectacular atmosphere.

 

[barros]

There's also this constant (and as I believe, not accidental) disinformation rolled out regarding the death camps by certain media, make it be German (ZDF) or American. People who say that it's 'a common knowledge' are wrong, even the POTUS himself used this, highly offensive, expression.

Which disinformation?

 

[Kostur]

Which disinformation?

The 'Polish death camps' term. It's been noted by some historians that usage of this term was an intentional move after the war, just like the Soviets blaming Katyń massacre on Germans. Same type of manipulation, disinformation, you call it really.

 

[barros]

The 'Polish death camps' term. It's been noted by some historians that usage of this term was an intentional move after the war, just like the Soviets blaming Katyń massacre on Germans. Same type of manipulation, disinformation, you call it really.

I didn't pay attention here in US but when I was in Portugal was called "Nazi death camps", they shouldn't use the term Polish when was the Nazis who did it - back in Portugal when I was in school we used to separate Nazis from Germans, after all the new generations aren't guilty for what the grand parents did but must be hard for Polish people to look to the Germans and not thinking about the war. Then today when Merkel tries to force other countries to take refugees they accepted by the shit load, is not helping at all the way some countries see Germany, the anti-Germany is growing in Europe.

 

[Ekkie Thump]

Personally I wouldn't have been more than vaguely aware of the Warsaw Uprising if it wasn't for this thread. Heard the term but never troubled myself with the facts. I've just been reading up on it. 3 times the number of British civilians killed and 1/3 of the total amount of British dead for the entirety of the war in a single city in just two months. Most of these were not resistance fighters and were killed via execution, children were not spared. Some civilians were used as human shields. The entire remaining population of the city was expelled. By the end of the war 85% of Warsaw's buildings had been destroyed, many in a systematic plan to wipe the place from existence.

Seems a reasonable thing for a city to recollect.

 

[Vashu]

But it was Germans who killed 160,000 people. That's a fact. The choice of words comes from the fact that a lot of reports and history books don't even mention this while talking about concentration camps and a lot of people actually believe they were Polish.

There is no problem between German and Polish people these days but history is history, you don't change it because the choice of words might offend the offenders.

What history book that mentions the nazis and third reich doesn't say that it concerns Germany and Germans?

With the concentration camps I understand the effort being put into correcting mistakes, but there's a catch. I don't think the authors that use the term of "Polish concentration camps" mean it in the sense of Poles organizing and executing death sentences. It most often comes down to describing the geographical location. In the end the reader can get deceived into understanding it wrongly, so there's a point in applying pressure here, but is it really that criminal of the writers to phrase it like that?

Aren't there any problems? What about the academic teacher that has dared to speak in German to his friend in the tram in Warsaw or that group of students that came to visit Poland?

History remains unchanged. Past is past. 73 years after those tragic events football stadiums are wrong place to conduct historical policy. Where is the honoring part right there? In the numbers? The nazis take the foreground in this display.

 

[Sunny Jim]

Did this last week before their Europa League play off match against Sheriff Tiraspol



and that was because they got fined (rightly in my opinion) after this display before their CL qualifier against FC Astana earlier in the month

why do you believe UEFA rightly fined them?

Short history lesson for you: Germany invaded Poland and occupied it for 5 years. During that time Warsaw Uprising took place.

 

[Sunny Jim]

What was the reason for the 1944 banner?
Astana are from Kazakhstan .. and even if they were German, cant really blame current day Germany for the Nazis..
And if it was general awareness, then I think most of the world is already on board with the "Nazis were evil" message..

The game took place around 1st of August, anniversary of Warsaw Uprising.

 

[Sunny Jim]

There's rules in place banning any sort of political message in a stadium. In fairness, it's not a bad rule, but in order to have it you have to punish ALL actions even if nobody in their right mind could disagree with it.

History is not politics.

 

[Kostur]

I didn't pay attention here in US but when I was in Portugal was called "Nazi death camps", they shouldn't use the term Polish when was the Nazis who did it - back in Portugal when I was in school we used to separate Nazis from Germans, after all the new generations aren't guilty for what the grand parents did but must be hard for Polish people to look to the Germans and not thinking about the war. Then today when Merkel tries to force other countries to take refugees they accepted by the shit load, is not helping at all the way some countries see Germany, the anti-Germany is growing in Europe.

I actually think that what @Sarni said is pretty much true, sure, there's always this 'but the war' part, but I think that the current generations have no problem with today's Germans, quite conversely, having been in Germany myself I have only positive experience and I speak German myself, think that German is the second most spoken foreign language in Poland too, due to geo-political reasons too obviously. Using the germ 'Nazi death camps' sadly leaves this void for the spin, you can add anything before the 'nazi' part and make that certain group of people look like nazis. The crimes from the past have nothing to do with modern Germany, yup, but it was Germany nontheless who started WW2 and invaded the Europe.

 

[Rood]

Their director said it was for stairwells, only passing the message.

Well I hope you now realise that the misinformation comes from the Legia side then - I gave you the facts.

The club doesn't have to know but in this case I suspect that they did know.

In that case we should forbid all minutes of silence, PL players wearing poppies during Remembrance Day (disgusting) and ban all players who wear black armbands after tragedies.

Personally, I would keep all of that out of football - its actually getting quite ridiculous now with black armbands and minutes silence pretty much every week for something or another. Its only recently everyone starts doing the poppy thing as well and people get vilified if they dont wear it, its a trend I dont particularly like.

In the past it was only if an ex-player or manager of the club dies that you used to see the black armbands and that to me was the way it should be.

 

[Rood]

There's no fine for it and probably better if it stays that way. However I find Legia's display being in bad taste. The choice of words (no mention of nazis), emphasizing on children's death, the horrific picture, it all makes it mostly anti-German, especially in the current political context. This doesn't commemorate the victims and heroes, it can be simply interpreted by way of pointing the finger at the Germans and saying: "you cnuts are guilty of all of it". What's the gain here? Who profits from all of this? It only feeds animosity between two nations that had actually put much effort into building bridges above a very troubled past. The only side who gains something here is the scummy ruling party that beyond the smokescreen of artificially engineered conflicts wants to destroy fundaments of a democratic country.


Compare it to Śląsk Wrocław's display in the video above which says:
"Let them call it a disaster, that it shouldn't be honored. (Warsaw Uprising wasn't a success)
Śląsk Wrocław is proud of the Uprising' soldiers".

I totally agree with you - the Legia banners are not a commemoration like the other one you mention, its a display meant to provoke and antagonise


@Kostur it's pretty crazy for you to claim that this banner is not a political statement, just look at the discussion that is now going on in this thread!

 

[Kostur]

I totally agree with you - the Legia banners are not a commemoration like the other one you mention, its a display meant to provoke and antagonise


@Kostur it's pretty crazy for you to claim that this banner is not a political statement, just look at the discussion that is now going on in this thread!

Because you're constantly making it 'political'. It's a historical banner, hate it or love it.

 

[antohan]

History is not politics.

It certainly is.

I don't have an issue with this, or the poppies as memorials. It's part of one's identity like Munich is for us, albeit the latter not being at all political.

You could argue Nazi Germans would be a better wording (more specific) and the choice of not making it specific is probably deliberate (and thus wrong in my book).

But all this is precisely why it's banned and fined outright with no room for argument.

 

[KirkDuyt]

No political statements in football, it's very clear and doesnt discriminate. Just not allowed. Commemorating past atrocities is a good thing, but do it somewhere else.

 

[JustFootballFan]

But it was Germans who killed 160,000 people. That's a fact. The choice of words comes from the fact that a lot of reports and history books don't even mention this while talking about concentration camps and a lot of people actually believe they were Polish.

There is no problem between German and Polish people these days but history is history, you don't change it because the choice of words might offend the offenders.

Well except for you stealing our cars.

 

[Sarni]

Well except for you stealing our cars.

Feck off

 

[Nucks]

I actually think that what @Sarni said is pretty much true, sure, there's always this 'but the war' part, but I think that the current generations have no problem with today's Germans, quite conversely, having been in Germany myself I have only positive experience and I speak German myself, think that German is the second most spoken foreign language in Poland too, due to geo-political reasons too obviously. Using the germ 'Nazi death camps' sadly leaves this void for the spin, you can add anything before the 'nazi' part and make that certain group of people look like nazis. The crimes from the past have nothing to do with modern Germany, yup, but it was Germany nontheless who started WW2 and invaded the Europe.

I don't think there is a single group on the entire planet outside of Poland apparently that equates the death camps with Polish involvement. Yes, some of the biggest death camps were setup in occupied Poland. Nobody thinks that the Polish people had anything to do with that.

As a pretty serious student of WW2 History, I can honestly say I've never heard this before.

 

[Van Piorsing]

Slightly unrelated to the thread but my stepfather is from Poland and he has a really funny story regarding Legia Warsawa. Basically, he told me Legia Warsawa is the most hated club in Poland. I'm not sure how long ago this happened, but, one night, the night before Legia's match versus Jagiellonia Bialystok, the Jag. Bialystok fans found out which hotel the Legia players were staying at and started setting off fireworks all night until the police were notified and they were told to leave. They returned at around 3-4am and set off even more fireworks.

The next day, during the match, the Jagiellonia fans chanted "how'd you feckers sleep last night"

Your stepfather's well aware but you should hear some of the chants rival supporters sing about Legia during matches, almost every season. Pool and City are quite polite to United in comparison.

 

[RedDevils23]

Your stepfather's well aware but you should hear some of the chants rival supporters sing about Legia during matches, almost every season. Pool and City are quite polite to United in comparison.

I'll have to check out some videos, I'm Polish as well and understand the language, I was just never into Polish football really. I bet there are some tasty chants, us Poles can be fecking crazy at times haha! I bet there are some good ones from the Wisla Krakow fans, no? Wasn't Legia vs. Wisla a huge rivalry a decade or so ago?

 

[Sunny Jim]

I don't think there is a single group on the entire planet outside of Poland apparently that equates the death camps with Polish involvement. Yes, some of the biggest death camps were setup in occupied Poland. Nobody thinks that the Polish people had anything to do with that.

As a pretty serious student of WW2 History, I can honestly say I've never heard this before.

Well we are quite touchy on this issue. I can assure there are dozen allegations of our involvment every year.

 

[Sunny Jim]

Well except for you stealing our cars.

Feck off

 

[Van Piorsing]

I'll have to check out some videos, I'm Polish as well and understand the language, I was just never into Polish football really. I bet there are some tasty chants, us Poles can be fecking crazy at times haha! I bet there are some good ones from the Wisla Krakow fans, no? Wasn't Legia vs. Wisla a huge rivalry a decade or so ago?

Yup and Wisła have some nutters, too especially when against Cracovia but yeah, everyone hates Legia, even members of previous government had a beef with their ultras.

The biggest Warsaw's inside beef was always Legia vs Polonia. One day, back in 1997 Legia knobheads decided to burn Polonia's stadium to the ground and almost succeeded. I look at this little banner about WWII and anti nazi message and starting to think, it really makes them look like a feckin saints now...

 

[Vashu]

I don't think there is a single group on the entire planet outside of Poland apparently that equates the death camps with Polish involvement. Yes, some of the biggest death camps were setup in occupied Poland. Nobody thinks that the Polish people had anything to do with that.

As a pretty serious student of WW2 History, I can honestly say I've never heard this before.

It's number one pet hate on the national level. There's a meaningful difference coming out of translating this term into Polish that makes it unacceptable since it pins down perpetration in an unambiguous manner. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it without digging thru some related research data that you could only really find in Poland.

 

[RedDevils23]

Yup and Wisła have some nutters, too especially when against Cracovia but yeah, everyone hates Legia, even members of previous government had a beef with their ultras.

The biggest Warsaw's inside beef was always Legia vs Polonia. One day, back in 1997 Legia knobheads decided to burn Polonia's stadium to the ground and almost succeeded. I look at this little banner about WWII and anti nazi message and starting to think, it really makes them look like a feckin saints now...

OMG you completely reminded me of Polonia, I forgot about that team! And wow, that bolded part is crazy! Did the Legia fans get in trouble for that?

 

[Rood]

Because you're constantly making it 'political'. It's a historical banner, hate it or love it.

Its not me who started the discussion about Polish politics and history etc! but it is inevitable with a provocative banner like that to get that type of discussion which is exactly why I dont want to see that kind of thing at a football match

I suppose the Legia fans have got what they wanted in the end because clearly this is a publicity exercise and it has worked - thats why the banner is in English rather than Polish like the respectful commemoration that the other club did.

 

[led_scholes]

The only thing I disagree with the second banner is that they should have used the word Nazis instead of Germans. It is absurd that they were fined for this. What's next? If a team makes a banner that says Hitler killed Jews or Kemal killed Armenians or ISIS is killing Syrians will get fined too??

 

[Rood]

The only thing I disagree with the second banner is that they should have used the word Nazis instead of Germans. It is absurd that they were fined for this. What's next? If a team makes a banner that says Hitler killed Jews or Kemal killed Armenians or ISIS is killing Syrians will get fined too??

Yes they will and rightly so because what the feck does that have to do with football?

why do you believe UEFA rightly fined them?

Ive already explained why, just read the thread

 

[Scarecrow]

The only thing I disagree with the second banner is that they should have used the word Nazis instead of Germans. It is absurd that they were fined for this. What's next? If a team makes a banner that says Hitler killed Jews or Kemal killed Armenians or ISIS is killing Syrians will get fined too??

Of course they will. The historical accuracy of the banner is irrelevant.

 

[Van Piorsing]

OMG you completely reminded me of Polonia, I forgot about that team! And wow, that bolded part is crazy! Did the Legia fans get in trouble for that?

Not so much. Few arrests usually dominated by typical police force measures but many got away with it because stadium was supposedly badly constructed (not suited for barbarian invasion ?) and police couldn't even use full equipment. The club itself got in trouble multiple times but in that time we had spineless post communist governance so you know the whole story.

Lived in northern Warsaw almost all my life and if someone says he hates Legia, I just say 'I feel your pain bruh'. Now everything looks different, especially after Euro 2012. Better infrastructure, better mentality, more basic version of patriotism rather than drunktard rednecks running around, cosplaying Conan the Barbarian.

 

[led_scholes]

Yes they will and rightly so because what the feck does that have to do with football?

And supporting (rightly) the gay rights has something to do with football? You can support anti racism but not anti fascism?

 

[RedDevils23]

Not so much. Few arrests usually dominated by typical police force measures but many got away with it because stadium was supposedly badly constructed (not suited for barbarian invasion ?) and police couldn't even use full equipment. The club itself got in trouble multiple times but in that time we had spineless post communist governance so you know the whole story.

Lived in northern Warsaw almost all my life and if someone says he hates Legia, I just say 'I feel your pain bruh'. Now everything looks different, especially after Euro 2012. Better infrastructure, better mentality, more basic version of patriotism rather than drunktard rednecks running around, cosplaying Conan the Barbarian.

That's a shame, trying to burn down a stadium is insane, how it could only lead to a few arrests is ridiculous. But as you, thankfully things are much better today. Also massive at that bolded part. Just curious, who do you support? I used to visit my grandparents in Lapy (right near Bialystok) nearly every summer since I was about 3 years old. I'm so happy that Jagiellonia Bialystok is doing so well in the league now I guess I consider them my "local" club.