Let 5 at the back die.

Dans

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
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(as a tactic, not the 5 themselves for avoidance of any confusion).

Lammens

Dalot De Ligt Yoro Dorgu

Casemiro Mount

Mbeumo Fernandes Cunha

Sesko

All but 3 or 4 replaceable of course, but the 5 at the back thing is driving me nuts. Dalot and Dorgu can stay as full backs and shouldn't be often anywhere near the penalty area, so useless are they in the attacking third.

I'm fed up with "recycling" the fecking ball around the back 5 too. Get it asap to Mbeumo Fernandes or Cunha and drive forward. At every fecking opportunity. With urgency too please. And if someone can't hack it, sub them off after 60, latest.
 
Why did anyone even try to pretend that it was ever a good idea to allow 5 at the back to be born in the first place?
 
It’s the most in-United way of playing football in decades. I’m amazed he has so much support for trying to implement it.
Thankfully, this system will be gone soon.
 
It's a crap system the way Amorim utilizes it, no idea why we spent months on this forum debating it. It was visible in about two matches, there is absolutely no positive to it.
 
soapythecat said:
It’s the most in-United way of playing football in decades. I’m amazed he has so much support for trying to implement it.
Thankfully, this system will be gone soon.
Click to expand...

Some people will support whoever is on the touchline though because they have been educated to believe that’s what being a United supporter is about. There would probably be fans on here happy to give me a season or two if I signed as our #9 tomorrow.
 
soapythecat said:
It’s the most in-United way of playing football in decades. I’m amazed he has so much support for trying to implement it.
Thankfully, this system will be gone soon.
Click to expand...

Not soon enough for me. It is the antithesis of how United should play, which when combined with Amorim's total inflexibility, is an utter disaster.
 
That will work not happen until Amorim goes. He’s stated countless times he’ll never change, as he said himself, if you want to change the system you’ll have to change the manager.
 
Rozay said:
Some people will support whoever is on the touchline though because they have been educated to believe that’s what being a United supporter is about. There would probably be fans on here happy to give me a season or two if I signed as our #9 tomorrow.
Click to expand...

You should support the manager, nothing wrong with that. You should also be able to say when he's making a pigs ear of it!

I'm not against 5 at the back, but if your CBs aren't brave enough to step into midfield with the ball what's the point. We had three of them last night all content to stand in a line rolling the ball to Bruno who was almost stood on their toes. What's the point in that?
 
Rozay said:
Some people will support whoever is on the touchline though because they have been educated to believe that’s what being a United supporter is about. There would probably be fans on here happy to give me a season or two if I signed as our #9 tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Will you put a shift in?
 
Real and leverkusen under alonso and atletico under simeone have used a back 5 off the ball too. They have all done well with it. Obviously it is early to say that for real but if united were playing like them atm fans would be much happier.
 
soapythecat said:
It’s the most in-United way of playing football in decades. I’m amazed he has so much support for trying to implement it.
Thankfully, this system will be gone soon.
Click to expand...
Two out and out wingers in the entire starting squad. Crazy crazy stuff.
 
Raul Madrid said:
Real and leverkusen under alonso and atletico under simeone have used a back 5 off the ball too. They have all done well with it. Obviously it is early to say that for real but if united were playing like them atm fans would be much happier.
Click to expand...

Name Real’s back 5?
 
Everton going down to 10 was the worst thing that could have happened to United. We are simply incapable of breaking down a low block. We are a counter attacking by team which needs space in behind, which is what we were under Ole too.

If Ruben can’t coach a team to play in more than one way, or adapt to different situations, then he isn’t a top coach and he has to go.
 
Rozay said:
Some people will support whoever is on the touchline though because they have been educated to believe that’s what being a United supporter is about. There would probably be fans on here happy to give me a season or two if I signed as our #9 tomorrow.
Click to expand...
You can only get around £75k a week though, so choose carefully.
 
I don't care how many we play at the back if we win games and play good football.

But we are doing neither.
 
I wouldn't have a problem with it if we had actual wing backs instead of defenders. It can be a very attacking way of playing if done right.

But what we've seen for much of his tenure is 5 defenders, leaving us outnumbered in midfield and outnumbered in attack. When this happens at home to a team playing with 10 men, you've got to ask whether or not the manager is aware that his philosophy is secondary here to the actual game state. A good manager smells blood and goes for the win. We decided to stick to the plan because...reasons?
 
Rozay said:
Why did anyone even try to pretend that it was ever a good idea to allow 5 at the back to be born in the first place?
Click to expand...
“Modern football”

Well now the trend is reversing thank god

Bring back 442, build the squad for it. Let’s get edge of your seat excitement back
 
Raul Madrid said:
Real and leverkusen under alonso and atletico under simeone have used a back 5 off the ball too. They have all done well with it. Obviously it is early to say that for real but if united were playing like them atm fans would be much happier.
Click to expand...

Real will likely soon sack their manager, a d Simeone firstly doesn’t play a back 5, and secondly - is not a proactive manager anyway which is not welcome here.

Real is actually the perfect example because it just highlights that because something/someone looked good in a second rate league - that doesn’t mean it is good enough at a higher level. And Alonso looked amazing in Germany, while Amorim was ‘quite good’ in Portugal.
 
My problem is not even the formation, it's the refusal to adjust or try something else when it's not working. He cares more about being right than winning football matches.
 
Lammens

Maz - De Ligt - Yoro - Shaw

Casemiro - Mainoo

Mbeumo - Fernandes - Cunha

Sesko
​
After summer/winter, assuming Casemiro goes or extends on a lesser deal, Fernandes potentially goes (think he will stay though tbh):

Lammens

Maz - De Ligt - Yoro - Shaw

Anderson - Mainoo

Mbeumo - Cunha - Semenyo

Sesko
​
Squad would also have flexibility with the ability to add a shielding DM by dropping Sesko and having a fluid front three. Mount depth, Dorgu depth, Amad depth, dalot depth. Gomes potentially too if the rumours are to be believed. It makes far too much sense. Obviously, I think Liverpool will snap Semenyo up though so just a pipe dream, but the it makes so much sense vs the current system it hurts not to see.
 
Why English fans hate that 343/352 system this much? In general, that system is excellent and entertaining. If it is implemented correctly, of course. Our is not because we try to play wingback system without proper wingbacks.
 
5 at the back only seems to "work" for us in certain particular circumstances:

1. If Amad is playing RWB
2. If we're playing a team who are going to have more possession around the edge of our box (ie we play on the counter)

It has been categorically proven beyond all reasonable doubt not to work for us if:

1. We play 2 full backs as the wing backs
2. We dominate possession but are playing against a low block

The problem is Amorim has done the latter multiple times now and still seems to think it will work.
 
golden_blunder said:
“Modern football”

Well now the trend is reversing thank god

Bring back 442, build the squad for it. Let’s get edge of your seat excitement back
Click to expand...
I would unironically love a working (keyword is working) 442 with flying wingers and two strikers.
It's probaly more nostalgia than anything.
 
Raul Madrid said:
The defenders change but it's tchouameni who drops from midfield to make a back 5.
Click to expand...

I generally didn’t know. But it would have been my point, if your doing this at an elite club one of your defenders is either a Midfielder pushed back or your defender has the ability on the ball as a John Stones for instance.

In Noway should an elite club who will also have most of the ball the majority of the time, implement a system that has 3 CBs. Pick any previous United team and adjust it to have three at the back and wingback.

CR7 and Park playing wingback? kanchelskis and Giggs. It just doesn’t work, here.
 
Could not agree more. It's a horrible system made worse by the players we have to fill the key roles.

I don't care if the system creates space for an additional attacker to come in at the back-post - that player is Dorgu who may as well be playing for the opposition.

I don't care if a CB is able to burst into midfield - if it isn't Martinez, they're all hopeless playing the ball forward.

We need to have our best players in their natural position if we want any success this season, which Amorim has all but accepted is an impossibility. It's a shame because there's a real opportunity to push for Europe this year.

ETH would have us in CL spots were he still in charge now. Guaranteed.
 
Its just not United.
Maybe its time we actually embrace the clubs traditions of 442 , and possibly 433, instead of being dismissive of them.
 
Amorim won't give up the system.

He'll either stay long enough to buy proper WBs for the formation to work and get the results.

or

He'll be sacked.

You decide what is more likely to happen.
 
It's garbage.

Just to be clear, the formation is not the same as the instructions of how you want your team to play. But it has a big impact. A 3/5 at the back system is inherently made for more reactive ways of playing, sit back and counter where your front 3 don't need so much defensive responsibility but the back 5 and midfield keep things solid. Like Crystal Palace. It's a horrible system for trying to dominate play.

What's so weird, and Carragher touched on this yesterday... Most managers want their teams to play the same way and will coach a certain style, certain principles that can be adapted depending on opponent to different shapes. Amorim so far is entirely fixed on shape but wanting to change the style from game to game. Just so dumb.
 
Rozay said:
Real will likely soon sack their manager, a d Simeone firstly doesn’t play a back 5, and secondly - is not a proactive manager anyway which is not welcome here.

Real is actually the perfect example because it just highlights that because something/someone looked good in a second rate league - that doesn’t mean it is good enough at a higher level. And Alonso looked amazing in Germany, while Amorim was ‘quite good’ in Portugal.
Click to expand...
Madrid are top of the table. If united were playing that well with a back 5 fans would be much happier which is what i said. It shows you can do well with a back 5 as it is November and rhey are top. Alonso being considered for the sack is because real and barca are not normal clubs. They have ridiculously high standards. Alonso is doing very well.

Simeone used a back 5 consistently. I have read it consistently and seen people on tv show it consistently too. It is off the ball. On the ball I think he played a back 3 last season.
 
Andycoleno9 said:
Why English fans hate that 343/352 system this much? In general, that system is excellent and entertaining. If it is implemented correctly, of course. Our is not because we try to play wingback system without proper wingbacks.
Click to expand...
I am sorry but this is not true. I believe I am correct in saying that only ONE team has ever won the Champion league playing 3 at the back. City played a notional back 3 in a final but Pep's system is incredibly fluid and 2 of those CBs were in fact CMs. and it was never really either a back 3 or a back 5 in that game. So the only manager in Europe to win the CL with a recognizable back 3 is Tuchel with Chelsea. Who also interestingly are the only team to win the PL with a back 3 as well, under Conte. So when you say, why do English fans hate the system, the record in both the PL and CL should give you a clue. also its inherently a defensive and reactive system, I am sure it can be entertaining at times especially in a weaker league or when played as a primarily counter attacking system..
 
lon ball2 said:
Lammens

Maz - De Ligt - Yoro - Shaw

Anderson - Mainoo

Mbeumo - Cunha - Semenyo

Sesko
Click to expand...
Three problems I see even with that formation. None of them good enough imo though Sesko in years may prove me wrong.

I'd move Bruno into Cunha's spot, Cunha as false 9, and Casemiro in for Maino.

At right back, I'd go with anyone over Maz or Dalot. Might require on off the radar signing if the intent is to move to 433/442/etc.

But that isn't good enough even with change in formation. Do not see that lightweight midfield working. Whereas Anderson-Casemiro with Bruno ahead and basically as free a role as you can get moving to forward line and back would work perfectly.

In fact


Keeper
Rb - De Ligt - Yoro - Shaw
---Anderson---Casemiro---Bruno
-Mbuemo--Sesko---Cunha.


Keeper
Rb - De Ligt - Yoro - Shaw
---Anderson---Casemiro-
Mbeumo---Bruno--Semenyo
---------------Cunha/Sekso (figure it out).

If Semenyo, then play him where Cunha is and Cunha where Sesko is and you have a title challenging first 11 imo. Can also move to a 4231 to accommodate Sesko with Bruno as the 10.
 
That back 4 looks shit I'd rather have Amad wide than Dalot. What are you actually gaining here to balance out the loss of Amad attacking from wide?
 
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