Nailed it!
Let 5 at the back die.
- Thread starter Dans
- Start date
As for our fan base back 4 obsession. It makes little sense because:
1. Our fullbacks are not very good in 4 with the exception of Mazroui
2. Our CBS bar Yoro + Martinez can't operate a high line.
3. None of our current midfielders are suited to a double pivot nor some oivit required for back 4 ball.
4. We don't have a crew of proven natural wingers.
5. We don't have the financial head room to recruit to solve ALL these problems.
1. Our fullbacks are not very good in 4 with the exception of Mazroui
2. Our CBS bar Yoro + Martinez can't operate a high line.
3. None of our current midfielders are suited to a double pivot nor some oivit required for back 4 ball.
4. We don't have a crew of proven natural wingers.
5. We don't have the financial head room to recruit to solve ALL these problems.
It looks completely crazy when you think about it. We have a shit team.. Solution, let's put them out of position as well.
We dont' have a shit team.
Cowards rather abandon their footballing principles just to please the masses.
Worth every penny we paid.
I still think there is still room for creativity though. Whether you are trying to survive relegation, get into Europe or win the league, you need to outperform your closest rivals. Money alone wont solve this, especially since the others also have money.
Agreed.
This is not exaclty a mountain of data though. And both examples have been short-lived (although CP might continue for many years going forward).
But why don't they? When I read @Fortitude's recent post I find myself shaking my head in disbelief over how finicky the whole system seems. It seems overly complicated and rigid.
The biggest problem I have with most of our fans is they have bought hook, line and sinker into the ubiquitous and frankly ignorant myth that wingback in a back formation is a defensive position. Yet it is literally NOT fullback in a back 4 . Its a wide midfielder position. Wingers are not "out of postion" when utilized there. Neither are natural fullbacks given a bigger license to attack.
Utilized properly their brief is simply:
i. Offer width,
ii. inside forward/10 support
iii.stop crosses (not man mark) on the flank.
iv. Delay oppostiion wide attackers by sheer presence as wide cbs sweep Up behind them.
Utilized properly their brief is simply:
i. Offer width,
ii. inside forward/10 support
iii.stop crosses (not man mark) on the flank.
iv. Delay oppostiion wide attackers by sheer presence as wide cbs sweep Up behind them.
Lammens
Yoro - de LIgt - Martinez
Amad - Wharton - Anderson - Semenyo
Mbeumo - Cunha
Sesko
Yoro - de LIgt - Martinez
Amad - Wharton - Anderson - Semenyo
Mbeumo - Cunha
Sesko
Could this work as a three at the back system?
Ideally though we'd get an upgrade on Martinez. Someone who is quite tall, physical and left footed to cover for Semenyo.
Maybe Heaven will be ready by then.
Then you have the issue of backup players. Most are nowhere near good enough.
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Dalot is a Portuguese international as a fullback. Dorgu would be better as fullback than wing back. Shaw can function out there if he stays fit. We have 4 very capable full backs.
De ligt spent almost his whole career playing as a CB in a back 4 to a very high level. No concerns there.
If we play 4231 or 433, either way our midfield is low on depth but fine for starters to make it work. Casemiro can be partnered by Ugarte for more legs or Mainoo depending on opponent, and sit behind or next to Bruno. It'd be more midfield cover than we have now anyway.
Wingers, well Amorim did choose to punt out 4 wingers. But Cunha can play on the left, Mbeumo and Amad are naturals on the right. Again, it's fine.
Our squad is far more suited to a 4231/433 than it is to a 343.
That midfield would be literal rubbish and Casemiro would become instantly worse.
it would work. We'd just have to recruit superior back up
1. Mazraoui is an excellent fullback. Dalot is better there than as a wingback. Shaw should be better there too. Dorgu was playing LB for Lecce before we signed him.
2. De Ligt, Yoro, and Martinez all have history of playing well in a back four.
3. We are still playing a double pivot, but with a back 4, we'd have the extra midfielder.
4. Mbeumo and Amad as as natural wingers. We could easily add someone like Semenyo in January too.
5. We have even more problems to solve in this current formation.
Solid team, but no chance they are winning EPL. Maybe with a world class striker.
I will never understand why people hate back 3s so much yet nigh every damned team plays with a defensive 4 uses 3-2-5 attacking structures in every game
I'm not a fan of 5 in the back with our current personnel, but it will be a functional system if we get some CMs that suit the style. 3-4-3 is heavily reliant on wingbacks and CMs to function. To have any width you need wingbacks capable of getting up and down the flank and with a double pivot you need CMs with high energy that can cover ground. We havent really addressed either since Amorim joined. We might have the worst suited midfield personnel in the league for this formation. And while we've addressed the wingback position in a way by adding Dorgu, we didnt really add quality there...we just added a guy thats physically capable of doing the job.
Because they are not the same.I will never understand why people hate back 3s so much yet nigh every damned team plays with a defensive 4 uses 3-2-5 attacking structures in every game
I will never understand why people hate back 3s so much yet nigh every damned team plays with a defensive 4 uses 3-2-5 attacking structures in every game
Exactly. Just because other teams dont start out with 3 at the back, most good teams move into that formation in attack. Look at Arsenal and City in particular. The issue is, they have the personnel to do it without the center of the pitch being wide open. And they're both far superior in terms of keeping possession.
Unfortunately, I don't think it will ever work with Bruno in the double pivot. It doesnt matter who you partner him with. He just doesnt have the positional disciple or legs, and his tendency to force the ball means he triggers too many counter for the other team. When he plays further forward, thats less of a problem.
I think in the summer, its time to part ways with Bruno, as much as I love the guy and how much hes done for the club. For how much hes done for us over the years, I think hes a major obstacle in us getting over the hurdle of becoming a top 4 mainstay again. For all the games he's won for us over the years, hes probably equally contributed to us losing games either by making us tactically and formationally rigid.
That's a different topic, we spent poorly but we do not have a shit team. We have a fairly good squad that is largely used poorly and has only managed to get points due to superior talent.
1. Dalot was not much better in a 4. The current Shaw would be murdered as a fullback. Dorgu used to play all over for Lecce. Right winger, fullback and wingback. I wouldn't hang my hat on him being better in a back 4
2. Playing well in a back 4 holds no relevance to plating well in a highline. Which our fans have always demanded and moan about when its not used.
3. No we wouldn't. We were playing 4-2-3-1 before Amorim. Casemiro wasn't getting enough support from Mainoo resultantly looking retirement worthy and Bruno wasn't helping the 2 out enough. Our fans would also nigh want to riot if Ugarte-Casemiro was the first choice pivot as a result.
4. We have only 2 natural wingers. Thats a dreadful number for the system. Adding Semonyo wouldn't paper over the cracks else where.
5. I don't buy the "we play a back 5/we need more to do to improve it" argument one bit.
Right now all we lack is a starting left wing back as good going forwards as an Amad. Plus one summer window recruitment of 2 - 3 cms. Our cbs and attack is literally set for the system. Plus better understanding of consistent execution of the system by these players.
For a back 4 in comparison we'd need at last 2 starting fulbacks, another cb, 2 starting midfielders , 2 wingers and possibly another cf.
We are an objectively poor team. That is why we get by on superior talent not superior collective. The profile of players in our team is terribly haphazard and it has reflected consistently in our results for years.
It's not a different topic. For the money we spent, you expect way more quality. It is a solid team and can beat anyone on a good day. Same as Bournemouth. For United standards, it is a bad team.
It is as much the players as it is the system. Both are shit, I’m not sure we will perform so much better in 4-2-3-1 right now.
When the other team has most of possession and tries to attack and press us we can counter and win games. But when the other team plays a low block and doesn’t want to attack or press us we don’t know what to do, the manager doesn’t know on the sideline and the players don’t know on the field.
When the other team has most of possession and tries to attack and press us we can counter and win games. But when the other team plays a low block and doesn’t want to attack or press us we don’t know what to do, the manager doesn’t know on the sideline and the players don’t know on the field.
We'd be murdered. I love how people have developed utter amnesia about Casemiro in THAT formation with this squad
1. Disagree about Dalot. I haven't seen Shaw murdered in a back four yet. Dorgu played mostly on the wing or at fullback for Leece. Leece played a back four mostly.
2. What does highline have to do with? You can play any defensive line you want. It has nothing to do with the formation.
3. No, we definitely weren't playing a 4231 before Ten Hag was sacked. And we finished 3rd with Ten Hag. Don't forget that.
4. As opposed to how many natural inside forwards?
5. If that's all we need for the current formation, then maybe the players are good, and the system or it's implemention is the problem.
True. But when comparing leagues I often stated my opinion that the PL (while without a doubt the best league) isn't as dominant and far ahead of the other top leagues as it should be looking at the money involved. Which points to a lack of quality in management. The fact that a club like Brighton is so good at "moneyball" compared to the other clubs in the PL isn't shining a bright light on the league in total.
True, that's the issue with exceptions
You can make any system look that complicated when you go into details.
Amorim's system is very weird in one aspect which makes it look that way: he keeps his WBs deep like true defenders, but has CBs occasionally step into midfield.
I can't think of another manager coaching it that way. Usually the CBs stay deep, but might step out to the wing if the WBs are overrun (which is safe as it still leaves two CBs in the center). That's what you see most other clubs doing, gives a more stable center and allows the WBs to stay higher and contribute more in attacks (especially in transition moments)
It is a different topic. If you purchase the latest Mercedes for twice its price you still have a good car, the price wasn't good and should either have more money in your pocket or more care in your garage but the car that you have is good.
And frankly, I have watched other teams and leagues a bit more lately and the individuals are actually much better. I don't actually know why but standards are down everywhere, United(SAF) standard doesnt' exist in 2025.
Any system looks good when it's working perfectly as intended. Any formation can work. That's not really what this discussion should be about.
1. How difficult is it implement 3 at the back? And must it be a constant feature? Like, are we gonna be the 3-at-the-back club now?
2. How difficult is it to revert the changes? Most managers don't play 3 at the back. Do have to almost start from scratch if we sack Amorim?
3. Is our manager even good enough to begin with (tale as old as time)? Because if he isn't, then it doesn't make sense to optimize for a formation that 90% of managers don't play.
4. Assuming that implementing (and reverting) 3 at the back is easy and that Amorim is good enough: do we have the right players to make it work? And if not, how many signings are we missing? He's basically already added 4 new players to the starting XI and he's using Amad, Mount and Yoro more than Ten Hag did, so we are already looking at a "new" team here.
1. How difficult is it implement 3 at the back? And must it be a constant feature? Like, are we gonna be the 3-at-the-back club now?
2. How difficult is it to revert the changes? Most managers don't play 3 at the back. Do have to almost start from scratch if we sack Amorim?
3. Is our manager even good enough to begin with (tale as old as time)? Because if he isn't, then it doesn't make sense to optimize for a formation that 90% of managers don't play.
4. Assuming that implementing (and reverting) 3 at the back is easy and that Amorim is good enough: do we have the right players to make it work? And if not, how many signings are we missing? He's basically already added 4 new players to the starting XI and he's using Amad, Mount and Yoro more than Ten Hag did, so we are already looking at a "new" team here.
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Any chance we can let knee jerk threads die too please? Along with the terms double pivot and xG too please. Thank you
I know we all hate 5 at the back system, but this is too much.
We have about 1 or 2 Mercedes, few Yugo and Ford Pinto. Half joking, but it is a meh team for me
The best way I can describe this formation is, when someone posts a 4 at the back formation with player names and a suggested starting lineup, it looks like there is an extra player there vs what we see every week.
I can go with meh, though I think that its better than meh, where I have an issue is with the idea that it's shit because it's not. And I think that I understand why you feel that way if you use United standards as a benchmark, United hasn't been anywhere any standards since 2013, that was 12 years ago, I moved past that a while ago. Also we have had far worse squads in the last 12 years, this is one of the better ones.
1. Shaw currently struggles whilst protected as a wide cb. No reason to believe he'd fair that much better as a pure fullback currently.
2. It has EVERYTHING to do with my posts you have been replying to. These same fans who are suddenly pretending to love back 4s used to regularly decry most of our current cbs for being unable to operate in a highline. They cared less that those cbs ALL played best in a 4.
3. We played 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 through out ETH's reign and progressively got worse in league football as the players available suited it less and less. That is the crux of the whole matter. Not where we initially finished with it. A return to that would actual herald even worse problems than we have now with this squad for it ti be remotely worth it.
4. Mbuemo, Cunha, Amad, Mount are all naturals as inside forwards/10s. Bruno can play there too and is a natural 10. As can Zirkzee. Compare that to only Mbuemo and Amad being natural wide players.
5. The players are better than most care to admit inspite of years of haphazard profiling in team building. Biggest issue is most people just don't want to accept the reality most of them are STILL learning back 3 football having never played it most of their careers! A huge reason why performances are still very up down. Implementation is very much the problem. Both with the players and how the head coach sets them up at times. Things that can both improve.
I personally would still take sticking to this course than a return to a back 4 that failed every manager since 2019 with these squad of players. The definition of insanity is returning tiowhat failed again and again in the past believing this time will be different
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Ok, we will meet halfway. It is a solid team but with obvious issues. But it also can become a really good one with only one addition, world class striker. Same what happened to Liverpool when they added Suarez.
I fully agree with that, with the small addition that this club won't be really good with this head coach.
My problem with this "system" thing isn't that it's 5-4-1 or 5-3-2 or 5-2-2-1 or whatever it is. They move it around, and are sometimes shown in 4-3-2-1, 4-3-3, 3-5-2 etc. That's fine, it's just a starting formation. My problem with it in its current iteration is that it puts 5 defenders + 1 defensive midfielder on the pitch. This is fine in games where we are the weaker team, or aren't expected to dominate play or break down a lower block. Hence victories against City, Chelsea and good play against other teams that try to break you down.
The problem is when we face games like this weekend, or other games against "weaker" teams, i.e. teams United are expected to dominate play against.
All of that, by the way, is separate from the other issues with the SQUAD. That they constantly show up small, with terrible effort and seem to forget how to handle / pass a ball or move into spaces. And that despite having the forementioned 5-6 defensive players on the field, we are so easy to play though that its laughable. This is a two-part problem imo, both effort-wise and set-up wise.
I don't know what the hell the people in charge should do, but almost everything that is going on now is not sustainable and not good enough. We can win games here and there, if we are perfect on the day. But any drop in concentration, effort or conversely an increase in such from the opposition puts us immediately in danger.
I would hope Amorim, or whoever else is brought in, would start with playing the players we have in their natural positions, and then trying to create movements and structures from that, both defensively and offensively. We have enough talent that SOMETHING should work. And then, if and when we are able to get players to build a BETTER system, then build that then. Don't shoehorn people into positions that clearly aren't working, leading to drop in morale (speculation) and then drop in effort / performance.
It just makes me angry to watch them these days, almost including the games we win.
The problem is when we face games like this weekend, or other games against "weaker" teams, i.e. teams United are expected to dominate play against.
All of that, by the way, is separate from the other issues with the SQUAD. That they constantly show up small, with terrible effort and seem to forget how to handle / pass a ball or move into spaces. And that despite having the forementioned 5-6 defensive players on the field, we are so easy to play though that its laughable. This is a two-part problem imo, both effort-wise and set-up wise.
I don't know what the hell the people in charge should do, but almost everything that is going on now is not sustainable and not good enough. We can win games here and there, if we are perfect on the day. But any drop in concentration, effort or conversely an increase in such from the opposition puts us immediately in danger.
I would hope Amorim, or whoever else is brought in, would start with playing the players we have in their natural positions, and then trying to create movements and structures from that, both defensively and offensively. We have enough talent that SOMETHING should work. And then, if and when we are able to get players to build a BETTER system, then build that then. Don't shoehorn people into positions that clearly aren't working, leading to drop in morale (speculation) and then drop in effort / performance.
It just makes me angry to watch them these days, almost including the games we win.
1. Agree on Maz. Disagree on the rest. Dalot sucks everywhere, end of. Shaw doesnt have the legs or durability to play on the flank to any degree anymore. Amorim has recognized this as well. Dorgu is better as a wingback. Hes technically pretty poor, but wingback allows his athleticism to make up for it to a degree.
2. De Ligt has looked far better in a 3 CB system for us than he did under ETH in a back 4. Martinez has been injured too long to make a call there. Yoro we havent seen much in a back four.
3. Sure and thats the reason for many suggesting the change. But that doesnt mean we still wouldnt attack with a back 3.
4. Both Amad and Mbuemo are best off the right and we just bought Cunha to start from the left. That formation switch would mean rotating and likely dropping Amad from the starting 11. A move to a back four would benefit Bruno, Maz, Casemiro, Mainoo but it hurts Amad, Dorgu, Mount, and basically all of the CBs. So there's give and take either way. Oh and while I like Semenyo, we should even think about adding another attacker until we sort out our midfield.
5. I dont disagree.
I think a lot of that is down to personnel. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a lot of times at Sporting Amorim played wingers in the wingback positions (ala Amad) against weaker opponents. He doesnt really have that option at United because we dont really have any wingers outside of Amad. We have a ton of 10s or wide forward type of players like Cunha, Bruno, Mbuemo, etc. But you couldnt play any of them as a wingback.
I keep bringing up personnel because its our biggest problem with this system. I dont think the system in inherently bad or that it wont work in this league. But our current squad doesnt have players with the right attributes or flexibility to play this formation. We need a much different type of player in midfield. We need higher quality wingbacks. And we wide wide attackers that can play in the 10 roles at times and wingback roles in other situations, depending on the opponent. We need another good summer window to address a lot of this and Im not confident Amorim will be here or have the backing by that time.
You think that managers play the same formations the same way? Oooookay.We'd be murdered. I love how people have developed utter amnesia about Casemiro in THAT formation with this squad